December 08, 2016, 11:38:09 PM

Author Topic: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price  (Read 24913 times)

jrista

  • Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS II
  • **********
  • Posts: 5334
  • EOL
    • Nature Photography
Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2012, 09:29:22 PM »
The Canon EOS 5D Mark II was launched in September 2008 @ $2,699 for body only.

Using your logic, but substituting in 'real' money i.e. GOLD, it cost 3.25 ounces of Gold (as Gold was $830/oz.)

Now the new 5D3 is $3,499 for body only, is approximately just 2 ounces of Gold (as today old is $1710/oz.)

Thus according to your rationale, the newer model is actually cheaper! :P

Problem is, humans are irrational, they tend to look at the absolute amount, plus they go by experience that consumer electronics (computers/cameras/smartphones) become cheaper over time as the cost of the technology declines. :(

Whas it introduced in 2007 or 2008? (I may have been using the wrong date for my inflation calculations if it was released 2008...)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 09:44:46 PM by jrista »

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2012, 09:29:22 PM »

mjp

  • Guest
Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2012, 09:35:58 PM »

Whas it introduced in 2007 or 2008? (I may have been using the wrong date for my inflation calculations if it was released 2008...)

September 17, 2008 was the 5DII announce date.

I wonder how many people are going to get into debt over this new camera?

Meh

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 703
Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2012, 09:37:13 PM »
US Dollars are the only thing that matter when comparing the original USD price to the current USD price. The difference in price based on inflation is about $3200 today, or about $300 less than the $3500 it currently lists for.

I don't know if the OP (before edit) included exchange rate (it was there by the time I first read it earlier today) but it is relevant nevertheless.   I also don't know if Canon uses the model that is being suggested but in response to your point, if you're a executive at Canon Japan, the only thing that matters is Yen and it's very reasonable to believe that Canon Japan is setting the price in Yen, converting to USD at current exchange rates, and possibly consider whether that price in USD is too high for the market.  But even in the case that they did think the USD price was a bit high, I think it more likely they would set the list price as is, see what happens, and offer a behind the scenes discount to wholesalers so that the street price would go down rather than having a significant disparity in the list pricing.  I know not if any of this is true or what really happens at Canon HQ... just my idle speculation.

jrista

  • Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS II
  • **********
  • Posts: 5334
  • EOL
    • Nature Photography
Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2012, 09:45:24 PM »
US Dollars are the only thing that matter when comparing the original USD price to the current USD price. The difference in price based on inflation is about $3200 today, or about $300 less than the $3500 it currently lists for.

I don't know if the OP (before edit) included exchange rate (it was there by the time I first read it earlier today) but it is relevant nevertheless.   I also don't know if Canon uses the model that is being suggested but in response to your point, if you're a executive at Canon Japan, the only thing that matters is Yen and it's very reasonable to believe that Canon Japan is setting the price in Yen, converting to USD at current exchange rates, and possibly consider whether that price in USD is too high for the market.  But even in the case that they did think the USD price was a bit high, I think it more likely they would set the list price as is, see what happens, and offer a behind the scenes discount to wholesalers so that the street price would go down rather than having a significant disparity in the list pricing.  I know not if any of this is true or what really happens at Canon HQ... just my idle speculation.

Ok, valid points. Taking that into consideration:

Assuming an intro price of $2700 in late 2008, adjusted for inflation, that would be about $2850 today. If we account for the exchange rate, in Yen in 9/2008 (rate of about ¥106/$1) $2700 is about ¥286200...and in Yen in 3/2012 (rate of about ¥81/$1) $3500 is about ¥283500. As far as adjusting for inflation/exchange rate to the Yen is concerned, the difference in yen is about ¥2700, and in USD today that difference would be about $33.33.

As far as I can tell, Canon introduced both cameras at roughly the same price point in their own currency.

I got my exchange rates from here (really quick bing search): http://www.x-rates.com/d/JPY/USD/hist2012.html

BobSanderson

  • Rebel T6i
  • ****
  • Posts: 127
Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2012, 10:25:07 PM »
Although I understand the need to understand/justify the pricing for this new object of desire, this is a most difficult exercise.

We have no idea about the assumptions that are being made by Canon for the price point they are setting relative to the profit they feel is appropriate over the life of the product given the sunk development and marketing costs. Without knowing these assumptions we are left with an impenetrable veil to guess through.

Basing a current pricing analysis on past history does have its problems. First, it assumes a fixed pricing strategy by Canon and perhaps Nikon as the leaders... and a willingness by both to maintain stasis or relative position. Two, the comparison with past models assumes that past pricing extrapolated to the present will, despite changes in input costs and technological change, produce a margin that will be acceptable. Three, pricing is not only connected to currency changes but also to local markets. The world wide local pricing for this camera varies beyond currency explanations (we have heard the squeals of real pain from our fellow international Canon lovers) . Four, inflation is only one factor in this drama.

My take on Canon is that they have a battle on many fronts in imaging and the competitors are now more diverse and quicker than ever. The DSLRs are still the flagships but this market is relatively limited when all of photography is fully considered. Many people are satisfied with just taking snapshots of limited quality and then putting them quickly on social network sites (requiring limited IQ....). I think we have all seen people with digital cameras and phones hardly taking the time to stop as they tourist around taking tons of pictures. A few of these folks will migrate to a DLSR or even a 5D Mk III but not that many. Many people have found a love for photography and are posting on flickr and other sites but many are happy with the results they get from point and shoots and iPhones for recording their lives and the things they enjoy sharing. It is a complex equation.

The greatest garlands for excellence in all the areas of fine art, commercial, wildlife, sport and reporting photography will, for the foreseeable future, go to a handful of camera manufactures and a very limited number of products. Like what happened with the film SLR market, we may be seeing an inflection point as new technologies will begin to attract the cool peeps from the DSLR to new lighter cameras (hello mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras - MILCs). We might be seeing the last of a great dinosaur line. It has been a great ride that will continue for the foreseeable future but maybe there will better ways to do what we love.

My feeling is that the 5d Mk III is a wonderful and appropriately expensive piece of equipment. A few hundred dollars (which is what many are quibbling over) will not stop a real professional with a thriving business - especially if he/she feels the IQ difference will secure or maintain a competitive advantage. The real problem with this pricing comes for the advanced or advancing enthusiasts of limited means. They may be having a tough time justifying the added expense with no attendant revenue - but the human mind is a very creative organ. Buying this body will certainly crimp other purchases in their lives not only in their hobby. It wouldn't be so hard if the camera was not so great!

I want one but I just can't justify it given I haven't peaked yet with the equipment I own and the time I have to dedicate to this adventure. I might spring for the replacement 7D should that ever come our way. See, we can justify anything even in one paragraph.

In the end we can only decide if this product is, at this time, worth the cost to us for what we are receiving.  Canon has put in a marker and depending on how it goes will maintain, lower or raise the price. Nikon has made their play and we are all potential actors in this drama.


« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 10:37:01 PM by BobSanderson »

Meh

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 703
Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2012, 10:47:36 PM »
@BobSanderson  totally agree with you, we don't know what Canon considered in their pricing, and we don't know what their costs or margins are or other factors they may consider.  Pricing strategy takes into account many variables beyond costs and margins.  At the end of the day, the manufacturer is going to set the price at what they think will maximize long-term revenue not only for a particular product but also for the brand.

You raise an interesting point about pros not being so concerned with a few hundred dollars more or less.  Not sure I agree entirely, some pros may be even more sensitive to price when they have to justify it against the extra revenue they might earn with a new body, lens, or other piece of gear.  For example, if their 5D2 still works they might have to seriously consider what practical difference it makes to upgrade... for themselves they might know the IQ is better but will it make a difference to a client and will they get more work by having a new body?  For an amateur no such justification needs to be made, either you want it and can afford it or not.

Maybe pros should be begging Canon to raise the prices even higher so that so many of us enthusiasts won't buy such great gear and think we can offer to shoot a friend's wedding for $500  :P


jalbfb

  • EOS M3
  • ****
  • Posts: 172
Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2012, 11:38:08 PM »
Seems to me that a whole host of factors and marketing strategies came into play, but the bottom line is they priced it at what they strongly felt the market would bear.  I'd like to think that the price will eventually drift down, but it may not be until sometime next year.  I was not around the Canon world when the 5D II initially came out.  How long did its price take to drop from the original opening price?  Also it appears all of the big camera stores are sticking to Canon's recommended price.  I also wonder how long it'll take for refurbs to show up??!! It would probably knock off a 100 bucks or so the offering price. my 2c FWIW.
Happy owner of the 5D Mark III, 24-105 f/4L and other L lenses

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2012, 11:38:08 PM »

Radiating

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2012, 11:49:40 PM »
US Dollars are the only thing that matter when comparing the original USD price to the current USD price. The difference in price based on inflation is about $3200 today, or about $300 less than the $3500 it currently lists for.

I don't know if the OP (before edit) included exchange rate (it was there by the time I first read it earlier today) but it is relevant nevertheless.   I also don't know if Canon uses the model that is being suggested but in response to your point, if you're a executive at Canon Japan, the only thing that matters is Yen and it's very reasonable to believe that Canon Japan is setting the price in Yen, converting to USD at current exchange rates, and possibly consider whether that price in USD is too high for the market.  But even in the case that they did think the USD price was a bit high, I think it more likely they would set the list price as is, see what happens, and offer a behind the scenes discount to wholesalers so that the street price would go down rather than having a significant disparity in the list pricing.  I know not if any of this is true or what really happens at Canon HQ... just my idle speculation.

Ok, valid points. Taking that into consideration:

Assuming an intro price of $2700 in late 2008, adjusted for inflation, that would be about $2850 today. If we account for the exchange rate, in Yen in 9/2008 (rate of about ¥106/$1) $2700 is about ¥286200...and in Yen in 3/2012 (rate of about ¥81/$1) $3500 is about ¥283500. As far as adjusting for inflation/exchange rate to the Yen is concerned, the difference in yen is about ¥2700, and in USD today that difference would be about $33.33.

As far as I can tell, Canon introduced both cameras at roughly the same price point in their own currency.

I got my exchange rates from here (really quick bing search): http://www.x-rates.com/d/JPY/USD/hist2012.html

I used the exchange rate one month prior to the intro date as list prices in the various markets are invariably preconceived, though of course they might be using different number. Either way 76 Yen:USD was used for the 5DIII and 109 for the 5DII. Inflation was 7.8%. This results in $3500 vs $4170 USD.

Canon's prices for the 5D Mark II in Japan was 300k Yen, and for the 5D Mark III is 270k Yen. The projected price should have been 320k Yen.

If you go to http://www.canon.com/camera-museum you can see all of Canon's lenses and their intro prices in Yen. You'll notice that since the 1990's Canon has had almost no deviation in it's intro prices in Yen when adjusted for inflation. For example the 14mm f/2.8 L I was 298k yen in 1991 and 14mm f/2.8 L II was 307k yen in 2007. This matches the inflation rate down to fractions of a percent and you'll find a similar patterns in the rest of Canon's lenses and bodies, though their historical body prices aren't listed on that site.


I will agree with BobSanderson that invariably local rebates and price cuts over time will have no easily predictable pattern, as that's how Canon's pricing really works. Canon does not introduce products at what the market can bear but instead at what they have historically charged. Canon then tweaks pricing to what the market can bear with discounts. My point was simply that Canon's introduction pricing has been incredibly consistent and it is clear Canon broke tradition to price the 5DIII lower than the 5DII to begin with.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 12:01:36 AM by Radiating »

dedrick427

  • Guest
Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2012, 12:13:48 AM »
Accounting for the inflation (or deflation?) of me not having a job in 2008 to now being an IT engineer: The Canon 5D Mark III is a buhzillion dollars cheaper the the Mark II at their respective release dates.  Thus, it'd be economically stupid for me not to buy one.  At least that's the economics that I'm using to justify the purchase.

Radiating

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2012, 01:12:11 AM »
You know, I would buy the "Yen has strengthened" argument, hence them jacking the price if....  it wasn't actually priced even MORE expensive in Japan than it is in the US.

Japanese price=358,000yen=4,377 USD

Might want to check reality before you spout off theoreticals. 

And the kit price is priced at 100,000 yen more than the body alone, which is $1,222 roughly USD.

Here's a couple links for the equivalents of large electronic stores similar to Best Buy in Japan:

http://www.biccamera.com/bicbic/jsp/w/d_camera/canon/eos5dmarkiii/index.jsp

http://www.yodobashi.com/ec/promotion/newtopics/detail/10000000000000024435/index.html

Canon hasn't released official Japanese pricing yet, as of 3/3/2012, so my guess is those sites are just trying to price gouge people before the price is released. Confirmed world wide pricing pegs it around 270,000 Yen based on all of Canon's other pricing for their other products between regions. It makes no sense to charge so much more in Japan for it compared to all their other products as people will just buy gray market ones.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 01:15:47 AM by Radiating »

YellowJersey

  • Guest
Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2012, 01:18:18 AM »
I wonder if the higher mkIII price has to do with trying to keep mkII sales going.

dbduchene

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 29
Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2012, 02:18:03 AM »
All of this ignores mores law. Every 18 to once in while tech should have twice the capabilities at half of the cost. Marketing will drive the whole thing more then anything else. They will build the cheapest camera that they can sell at the highest price that they think that they can get. They are making a bet here and with the D800 time will tell if it was a good one. In business today the marketing department has more say in what we get and how much it cost than all of the other factors combined
5D, 7D, 5D Mk II, Canon EF 28-300 L, 100-400L, 70-200 F2.8 IS II L, 85 F1.2, 15 MM Fisheye Sigma 50 F1.4, Tamron 17-35 F2.8/4, 28-300 Canon EX 430

1982chris911

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 372
    • View my Flickr Stream here
Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2012, 03:13:12 AM »
Just a quick reminder on how companies price goods today.

There are pricing strategy consultants that do a lot of research on how to price such goods. I know of one such company that employs over 500ppl who do nothing else. Believe me, when I tell you that the rational for Nikon and Canon to price their products like they are priced takes exactly into account how much they can sell, how much discount they will give in the future after 6months, 1 year 2 years etc ... and how the competition will respond. Now don't get me wrong all I want to say is that the pricing even if ppl here don't like it follows a strategy that is probably planed to much greater detail than what you might think...
So the 3500 USD against 3000 USD is exactly where both companies see their chances.

Nikon needs market share (as it was loosing a lot the last few years), while Canon needs to become more profitable per unit sold ... but those are two different strategies so the target pricing shows the difference we see here now.   
       
5DsR, 5D MkII, 5D MKIII, 7D, Sigma 12-24 HSM2, Canon 11-24 F4L , 16-35 F4L IS, 17-40 F4L, 24-70 F2.8L, 70-200 F2.8 IS2 L, 100-400 F4,5-5,6 IS2 L, 100mm f2,8L Macro, Ext x1,4 & x2 III, Zeiss Otus 55mm; Otus 85mm etc
https://500px.com/1982chris911
https://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisk1982/

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2012, 03:13:12 AM »

AdamJ

  • Guest
Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2012, 04:17:27 AM »
I suspect Nikon is not even making money on the D800. They are a small company who went through turmoil and think they can get some market share with the D800. I hope they succeed. Because go healthy compitation is good for all. i.e. customers.

I haven't read the whole thread but in case it hasn't been mentioned, Nikon is a wholly owned subsidiary of Mitsubishi which is a company with $250bn turnover. I doubt they're making a loss on the D800 but I agree that the competition is good for all consumers.

SebSic

  • Guest
Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2012, 09:32:53 AM »
Just stop masturbation with exchange rates !!! Canon did take this in concideration establishing the final price.

$3500 is just a BIG priice. People who will say "No it is so cheap ..." ar just too rich to remember life cost ...
In my country(France), for the price of Canon 5D III plus 24 70 2.8 L II (3500€ plus 2500€ less 300€ for kit price = 5700€) I can buy a brand new car, or a moto. I can rent an appartment with 2 rooms for a year ....

For professional use, as this is the main "instrument", this is not "too" expensive.
But for amators like me, who  just love photos, this price is really high, and I will need sacrifices (not human lol) to buy the dream kit (5D III + 24 70 L II)

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Newsflash on 5D mark III price: It's cheaper than the 5D II intro price
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2012, 09:32:53 AM »