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Author Topic: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology  (Read 32084 times)

jrista

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2012, 09:03:35 PM »
Quote
statistics lie all day.. it´s a matter how you test.

So, are you saying that DxO is wrong?  ::) You must know better than professional testers.  :P

For one, statistics in general are correct for the model within which they apply, the mechanism by which samples and numbers are evaluated. Same goes for DxO. The question is, is the model correct? When it comes to DxO, you also have to wonder about interpretation bias. Their ISO (low light) numbers for both cameras (D800 and 5D III) seem rather bogus to me...when you evaluate the SNR and high ISO DR graphs in correlation, the 5D III is the superior camera, not the D800...but somehow, DxO has given the D800 the win. Seems awfully fishy given their own data, and even more fishy given that Nikon is a financial supporter, while Canon is not.

So, within the given model, perhaps DxO numbers are entirely "correct", but is their model valid? Visually, examining a zillion photographs, the 5D III definitely seems to produce better, cleaner High ISO images with no pattern noise at all (which would be expected given the higher SNR), where as the D800 starts injecting some kind of horizontal FPN around ISO 6400 or 12800, and seems to have a tendency to overexpose highlights at most ISO's. That in and of itself is a factor of those two cameras that is not explored by DxO...the tonal range weighting. Canon sensors favor preserving highlights, obviously at the cost of shadows. Nikon cameras seem to favor shadows, quite often at the cost of blown (and therefor irrecoverable) highlights (many head-to-head comparisons between Canon and Nikon DR demonstrate this fact when extremely high DR scenes are used as sample photographs...highlights on Nikon cameras are usually more exposed, often slightly blown.)

I also wonder about whether DxO properly takes into account Canon's bias offset, which in their more recent cameras is 2048. The bias offset is intended to allow NEGATIVE pixel readings since it is subtracted from a given pixel value during processing. The calculation for DR at DxO involves applying the bias offset from the pixel before applying the rest of the formula...however that does not take into account the fact that the total valid numeric range is -2048 to maxSaturation, not 0 to maxSaturation. That would only matter at ISO settings where the bias offset mattered (lower ISO's), so is the fact that Canon DR levels out below ISO 400 a consequence of a slight misinterpretation of Canon's bias offset? Are Canon's DxO results missing a potential 2000 additional luminance levels that would positively affect its DR score? I can't say myself, I'm not entirely sure how a bias offset should be factored into a DR calculation, if it should be factored in at all, but not factoring it in properly seems like it could be leading to unreliable results.

The DxO model doesn't seem to take these factors into account (along with many others, that would positively and negatively affect many camera brands, not just Canon and Nikon...just look at their Medium Format numbers and final scores if you need any confirmation that DxO's model is clearly missing by a mile somewhere)...so I question the entire model, and therefor the statistical results as well.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 09:47:13 PM by jrista »

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2012, 09:03:35 PM »

nitsujwalker

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2012, 09:41:12 PM »
Laughing at how ridiculous all this banter is. I'm sorry, I know its probably arrogant to make little of what others think is so important...I just can't imagine we were able to create art 10 yrs ago, even 5 yrs ago with these findings! Does this mean our images will finally make us more money???

gee i thought it was about the art and not just money....

If you do what you love AND get paid for it isn't it the best of both worlds??  It's about only art until you start getting paid. Then it's about art and money ;) I'm ok with that.

Arun

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2012, 11:09:19 PM »
But I must say the d800 score really shocked me since they even beat some of the medium format cameras.

Well, the Sony Alpha 900 has scores that beat the Leica M9, and Hasselblad H3DII 50 and so on.

MrSandman

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2012, 11:24:36 PM »
Okay, we can cry bias and be in complete denial, but Canon has inferior sensor from the early 2000! Their tech is a decade behind than Nikon. When will they start accepting the fact and invest a little more? It used to be Canon could at least claim "we have high megapixels", but now they can only claim "DXO is biased".

We need competition, otherwise Nikon will become stagnant, just like Canon has become. Sorry for the rant, not trying to rub salt on our collective Canon wounds.

If I’m not mistaken, Sony makes the sensor for the D800.

Canon keeps its sensor research and development in-house, which I think has its advantages.

RLPhoto

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2012, 11:41:57 PM »
Dxo is being paid off, plus it not the first organization to be corrupted. Simple enough, and the video I showed in a previous post proves that the dynamic range of the d800 is being exaggerated beyound what it really is.

V8Beast

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2012, 11:50:14 PM »
Canon is to old slide film as nikon is the negative film... The slides just had better pop, better and vibrant colors, more "wow" factor...  Negatives COULD have more latitude but in the end, a lot more work/care was needed to get negatives in print to get remotely close to the slide image.  The same is being proven true with D800 files and the 5d3 files...

That's the best damn analogy I've read in a while. It almost makes me want to pop some Kodak E100vs slide film and go shooting. Oh wait, I can just shoot with my 5DIII - with damn near the same IQ and pop of color slides - and get instant gratification without paying for film and processing :)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 11:54:07 PM by V8Beast »

V8Beast

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2012, 12:00:58 AM »
90% of all visitors of DXOmark have NO clue how DXO is measuring sensor performance.
and from the 10% who know, only half understand why they measure that way.
This is EXACTLY why Canon has an enormous marketing problem on their hands.

I seriously doubt DxO has that much clout. Outside of forums like this, most consumers have never even heard of DxO. For the sake of argument, let's say DxO's test results influenced purchasing habits as much as people suggest. Canon could easily create a puppet company to rival DxO with test standards biased to favor Canon sensors. Hell, it would probably be cheaper than investing in the R&D necessary to actually improve the sensors. Tech savvy consumers would see right through it, but the "dumb rich people" that people in this thread are referring to wouldn't have a clue.

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2012, 12:00:58 AM »

V8Beast

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2012, 12:12:06 AM »

But, let's be honest. The cheapest DSLR is way more than adequate for 90% of situations, regardless of brand. The 5D II and the D700 were more than adequate for probably 98% of situations. Now, the 5DIII and D800 are going to be more than adequate for 98.4% of situations.
People need to keep a little perspective here.

Well said. I'll take it one step further and say that a $500 Rebel is more camera than 95% of buyers can  handle. IMHO, some people enjoy marveling at tech specs more than actually using their gear. Nothing is more pathetic than having a high-dollar camera, and getting smoked by someone with far lesser gear, yet it happens all the time.

V8Beast

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2012, 12:46:08 AM »
I suspect thats a little out there, ,and that DXO's reputation would preclude this from happening.  It might not be trivial to accomplish,  but some independant test or even a careful real-world evaluation could show evidence of error and DXO would be toast.

D800 vs Medium Format with Roth and Ramberg

According to DXO, the Nikon should have won in dynamic range big time (14EV) but the hasselblad won. (12.5EV)

Stuff that in DXO's lens mount and smoke it.

I have to give credit where credit is due. The D800 performed extremely well going up against a medium format body in this vid. The shadow recovery is very impressive. I still don't like it's colors, though :)

Bosman

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2012, 01:47:41 AM »

But, let's be honest. The cheapest DSLR is way more than adequate for 90% of situations, regardless of brand. The 5D II and the D700 were more than adequate for probably 98% of situations. Now, the 5DIII and D800 are going to be more than adequate for 98.4% of situations.
People need to keep a little perspective here.

Well said. I'll take it one step further and say that a $500 Rebel is more camera than 95% of buyers can  handle. IMHO, some people enjoy marveling at tech specs more than actually using their gear. Nothing is more pathetic than having a high-dollar camera, and getting smoked by someone with far lesser gear, yet it happens all the time.
Lets take it a step farther, numbers and "Facts" are being spouted and regurgitated yet most of those doing the science vomit don't actually have either camera. Nor have they looked at the capture and marveled at how well it captured the scene and how pretty much no post work need be done to the 5d3 images. Oh, never mind that silliness, the numbers prove i am talking out my A**. Only numbers say whats true about my experience with the camera. What was i thinking???
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Viggo

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2012, 02:10:45 AM »

But, let's be honest. The cheapest DSLR is way more than adequate for 90% of situations, regardless of brand. The 5D II and the D700 were more than adequate for probably 98% of situations. Now, the 5DIII and D800 are going to be more than adequate for 98.4% of situations.
People need to keep a little perspective here.

Well said. I'll take it one step further and say that a $500 Rebel is more camera than 95% of buyers can  handle. IMHO, some people enjoy marveling at tech specs more than actually using their gear. Nothing is more pathetic than having a high-dollar camera, and getting smoked by someone with far lesser gear, yet it happens all the time.
Lets take it a step farther, numbers and "Facts" are being spouted and regurgitated yet most of those doing the science vomit don't actually have either camera. Nor have they looked at the capture and marveled at how well it captured the scene and how pretty much no post work need be done to the 5d3 images. Oh, never mind that silliness, the numbers prove i am talking out my A**. Only numbers say whats true about my experience with the camera. What was i thinking???

I'll jump on this as well. I use the color checker passport to calibrate my colors, and whilst the 5d2 showed a MASSIVE improvement, the 5d3 adjusts a little, but waaaaay less. So for those how doesn't bother with the ColorChecker, the colors from the 5d3 vs the 5d2 is crazy better.

And I saw something about slides and negative compared Nikon vs Canon. Could not agree more. I took home with me some D800 and D4 files, and as soon as I touched them in Lightroom they started to fall apart, I was actually very surprised. Guess I'm spolied with the rubberband/wet clay files from Canon.
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hoghavemercy

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2012, 02:40:51 AM »
Okay, we can cry bias and be in complete denial, but Canon has inferior sensor from the early 2000! Their tech is a decade behind than Nikon. When will they start accepting the fact and invest a little more? It used to be Canon could at least claim "we have high megapixels", but now they can only claim "DXO is biased".

We need competition, otherwise Nikon will become stagnant, just like Canon has become. Sorry for the rant, not trying to rub salt on our collective Canon wounds.

at the end of the day it all comes down to my 5DIII ;D, really surprising a lot of these hatred for Canon came out after DXO reviews, you could've complained weeks earlier. you could always return yours and cross over to Kenro and be his bitch, get off the pc and shoot, relax it's a long way for the perfect sensor.

RuneL

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2012, 02:41:09 AM »
http://nofilmschool.com/2012/04/markii-vs-markiii-vs-d800-candlelight/ check out this, it's video, but Canon is miles ahead.

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2012, 02:41:09 AM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2012, 02:58:17 AM »
http://nofilmschool.com/2012/04/markii-vs-markiii-vs-d800-candlelight/ check out this, it's video, but Canon is miles ahead.

Yeah the 5D3 has much better SNR for video because it uses the whole sensor while the D800 only uses 1 out of every three lines of the sensor. 5D3 is a bit soft, perhaps because the 3x3 mapping means they need to apply lots of extra AA because the built-in filter is too small scale. Adding a 1.6x cropped video might make for a sharper option with more reach, quite a shock it didn't ship with such a mode. One can they will still add it (alogn with zebra stripes and, if possible, focus peaking).

PhilDrinkwater

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2012, 03:06:28 AM »

But, let's be honest. The cheapest DSLR is way more than adequate for 90% of situations, regardless of brand. The 5D II and the D700 were more than adequate for probably 98% of situations. Now, the 5DIII and D800 are going to be more than adequate for 98.4% of situations.
People need to keep a little perspective here.

Well said. I'll take it one step further and say that a $500 Rebel is more camera than 95% of buyers can  handle. IMHO, some people enjoy marveling at tech specs more than actually using their gear. Nothing is more pathetic than having a high-dollar camera, and getting smoked by someone with far lesser gear, yet it happens all the time.
Lets take it a step farther, numbers and "Facts" are being spouted and regurgitated yet most of those doing the science vomit don't actually have either camera. Nor have they looked at the capture and marveled at how well it captured the scene and how pretty much no post work need be done to the 5d3 images. Oh, never mind that silliness, the numbers prove i am talking out my A**. Only numbers say whats true about my experience with the camera. What was i thinking???

I'll jump on this as well. I use the color checker passport to calibrate my colors, and whilst the 5d2 showed a MASSIVE improvement, the 5d3 adjusts a little, but waaaaay less. So for those how doesn't bother with the ColorChecker, the colors from the 5d3 vs the 5d2 is crazy better.

I think this just means lr has got better at producing correct profiles over the years. The d3 profile showed a lot of difference too whereas the d3s was much closer to reality.

Ill check the 1dx but I might not use a profile if it's close enough.

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Re: Canon is getting owned in sensor technology
« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2012, 03:06:28 AM »