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Author Topic: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda  (Read 37237 times)

risc32

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2012, 08:17:30 PM »
From nearly every test i've seen anywhere, the sony sensor is amazing. But I have to ask, are many of you guys boosting shadows by these amounts?  Maybe it's just me, but I've never come anywhere near doing this stuff. Let me repeat, the sony sensor is amazing, but isn't this just silly?

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2012, 08:17:30 PM »

JR

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2012, 08:53:03 PM »
From nearly every test i've seen anywhere, the sony sensor is amazing. But I have to ask, are many of you guys boosting shadows by these amounts?  Maybe it's just me, but I've never come anywhere near doing this stuff. Let me repeat, the sony sensor is amazing, but isn't this just silly?

The most i would push shadows for my type of pictures would be two stops max.  That said i agree the new sony sensor seem really great.
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smirkypants

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2012, 10:18:01 PM »
I have both. Initially I liked the 5D3 more, but I think that had to do more with familiarity than anything else. Don't get me wrong, I like the 5D3 plenty but as I'm learning more and more about the d800 I'm liking it more. What I'm constantly amazed by is being able to take images with things in dark shadow and extract amazing detail and beautiful color from it. Stunned is more like it. I'm finding myself drifting more and more away from my Canon gear. Sad. I've been a Canon shooter for a very long time.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2012, 03:02:02 PM »
From nearly every test i've seen anywhere, the sony sensor is amazing. But I have to ask, are many of you guys boosting shadows by these amounts?  Maybe it's just me, but I've never come anywhere near doing this stuff. Let me repeat, the sony sensor is amazing, but isn't this just silly?

It's not necessarily silly at all, it depends upon what you shoot. Tons of my shots have no need for that at all, many even need shadows crushed, and yet I all the same I constantly run into DR limitations all the time too, it's not that hard to do unless you only stick to the straight and narrow of one single style/type of shooting that happens to never need it.

What is silly is that if it were the 5D3 with the better sensor everyone here would be going on about how the D800 is 100% useless for ANY type of photos.  ;)

Nikon people generally admitted our sensors trounced their sensors to pieces back in say 20D/5D days.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 03:04:38 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

sarangiman

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2012, 03:29:53 PM »
I shot a Stouffer Transmission Wedge (13.2 stops DR total) with a 5DII, 5DIII, & a D7000.

The 5DIII required 1/3EV less exposure than 5DII to keep any channel (meaning: green, since that blows first) from blowing out in the brightest patch of the wedge. The D7000 needed 2/3EV less exposure than 5DII (i.e. 1/3EV less exposure than 5DIII) to keep any channel from blowing out.

But regardless of the highlight handling, the D7000 retained a SNR>1 down to the darkest patch, giving it ~13EV DR if your lower limit is SNR of 1. The 5DIII was stuck somewhere around 11.3EV DR (again, assuming lowest acceptable SNR is 1), b/c its SNR went to 1 at patch #35 (whereas D7000 maintained SNR>1 down to patch 42). These patches are 0.1 density increments, so you can calculate the DR by doing the following calculation:

DR = log2[(10^#of patches for which SNR>1)/10)

So that pretty much debunks the whole theory that the Canon sensors might still have really good DR b/c of how they handle highlights.

PhilDrinkwater

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2012, 03:32:53 PM »
I would quite happily accept more dr. It'd allow me to do single frame HDR at weddings. That would give me some me options.

Can I live without it? Yep. Would I prefer to have the option? Yep.

Astro

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2012, 03:39:38 PM »
I continue to find it interesting that the technical people of these forums (Canon Rumors, DPReview, FM, etc.) only focus on Fred's pictures of the shadows from the buildings.  I will be the first to say it is extremely impressive what Sony/Nikon has done with the sensor, but if you continue to read Fred's review and look at all of the pictures he takes for the articles, he points out some serious flaws in focus with the Nikon.

well this thread is about 5D MK3 sensor vs. D800 sensor so it should not suprise you.

we are not talking about the cameras in general here.

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2012, 03:39:38 PM »

V8Beast

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2012, 04:16:11 PM »
When will this debate go away? The D800 has one heck of a sensor that can pull a staggering amount of shadow detail. Canon boys need to accept this and move along :) If it makes you feel bad, buy a D800.

Personally, I very rarely have the need to push the shadows that much, and the 5DIII is a better balanced machine for my needs. I just don't see why I should get upset about one aspect of camera performance (DR) that doesn't affect what I shoot all that much. Sure, more DR would be nice, but I can work around my Canon's limitations and the areas in which the 5DIII excels outweighs its DR disadvantage for my usage.

I understand that landscape photogs need all the DR they can get. I also understand that all of a sudden everyone seems to be a landscape photographer. Many of these self-proclaimed landscape photogs don't have portfolios or sample images that show how much their images would benefit from improved DR, but what do you expect on the internet ;D?

So if DR is that important to you - whether it's for practical reasons or just to placate your ego - admit that Canon is inferior at the moment, and buy yourself a D800 :)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 04:25:20 PM by V8Beast »

smirkypants

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2012, 05:08:46 PM »
So if DR is that important to you - whether it's for practical reasons or just to placate your ego - admit that Canon is inferior at the moment, and buy yourself a D800 :)
I think it's important that we all bitch a bitch so that Canon hears loud and clear. DR is very important to me. I shoot people wearing helmets with brims during the mid-day sun. High DR means being able to turn dark shadows into colorful, natural-looking faces. Hell, just today I sold three photos where I pushed the hell out of the shadows and got really nice looking outdoor event shots that looked like portraits. This is actual money in my pocket that I would not have had shooting with a Canon, and I charge a bit for my photos. Unless you can control the light, there will always be situations where you need to bring color out of shadows.

I didn't even realize how important the extended DR was until just this week. Right now it's like a secret weapon for me. Don't kid yourself, this stuff is very important and Canon needs to wake up or more and more photographers will come to have the same epiphany I recently had.

I am now seriously considering selling all of my Canon gear.

hyles

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2012, 06:13:11 PM »
I think that the 2 camera are really different and aimed at different market. Canon probably was thinking that DR of 5DII was OK and looked for improvement in other areas.
It is allway been like that, with nikon having more DR and canon more suited for Hight ISO. Maybe increasing low ISO DR  would lead to loss something sowhere else and they just designed theire camera this way. They wanted their camera behave this way. If you really need LOW ISO DR... go for nikon, if you shoot always 800ISO and more go for canon. If you have a system... keep with wour brand.
Diego

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2012, 06:47:40 PM »
just got home from shooting with a buddy who uses a d800, i have a 5d3... after looking through the features of both, ive concluded that both are absolutely unbelievable cameras... the d800 crop mode is amazing, i wish canon would implement a similar offering. whereas the 5d3 high iso is just so much better.. maybe its because im a canon guys so im used to them, but the 5d3 ergonomics are so much better. so confused with the layout of the d800.. also the extra fps really made a huge difference.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2012, 07:01:45 PM »
I shot a Stouffer Transmission Wedge (13.2 stops DR total) with a 5DII, 5DIII, & a D7000.

The 5DIII required 1/3EV less exposure than 5DII to keep any channel (meaning: green, since that blows first) from blowing out in the brightest patch of the wedge. The D7000 needed 2/3EV less exposure than 5DII (i.e. 1/3EV less exposure than 5DIII) to keep any channel from blowing out.

But regardless of the highlight handling, the D7000 retained a SNR>1 down to the darkest patch, giving it ~13EV DR if your lower limit is SNR of 1. The 5DIII was stuck somewhere around 11.3EV DR (again, assuming lowest acceptable SNR is 1), b/c its SNR went to 1 at patch #35 (whereas D7000 maintained SNR>1 down to patch 42). These patches are 0.1 density increments, so you can calculate the DR by doing the following calculation:

DR = log2[(10^#of patches for which SNR>1)/10)

So that pretty much debunks the whole theory that the Canon sensors might still have really good DR b/c of how they handle highlights.

In fact the whole talk abut cameras handling highlight better is kind of a false premise to begin with for the most part (perhaps the way the color filter array is designed might be a real world difference if it had some weird balance for typical lighting or something). Any standard digital camera handles them the same way (if you compared to one of those dual fuji sensors it might be a more complex story) for any one given channel certainly, the channels goes from unblown to blown, instantly. Differences are never in the highlights, any that seem to be there are just because the standard tone curve chosen was set higher or lower for middle gray. But the sensor capture linearly so what you do is expose so that whatever the brightest thing you want to preserve gets preserved and then dynamic range depends only on dark tone retention.

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2012, 07:41:44 PM »
I think it's important that we all bitch a bitch so that Canon hears loud and clear. .

I am now seriously considering selling all of my Canon gear.

Money speaks louder than words. You make money with your images, and the D800 allows you to capture and sell images that you couldn't get with the 5DIII. From a business perspective, you absolutely made the right move. If there are enough disgruntled Canon users that jump ship to Nikon because they find the DR of Canon sensors inadequate, they will get the message loud and clear and address the situation.

Until then, in Canon's eyes people on message boards are just a bunch of fanatics that enjoy debating about how sensors perform in a lab, and how those test results might impact their photography if they had the talent to utilize their gear. You have a very impressive portfolio and obviously have the skill set necessary to benefit from the D800's DR advantage over any Canon body on the market. Surely, you must realize that for every pro photog like you, there are many more tech geeks either praising or lamenting about the D800's DR that haven't a clue how to shoot anything beyond a snap shot :)

My point is that the D800's has a clear advantage in DR, so there's no sense for Canon guys to cry about. Admit it and move on, and if DR is that important to you, switch systems. No need to be in denial, or get so emotional about it :) If Canon loses enough business over this, they will get the message.

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2012, 07:41:44 PM »

V8Beast

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2012, 07:57:24 PM »
You misunderstand. The clean shadows means very low (almost non-existent) read noise on the sensor.

That read noise is going to be in every capture, it is only in shadows where it can be most easily demonstrated.

In effect, what this means that even a photo of a blue sky and beach (no shadows or anything) is going to be cleaner on the D800 than the 5D3, even if the signal drowns it out.

So does this mean the D800 is going to make me any more money? I have a pretty good handle on the strengths and weakness of my gear for my type of shooting, and I can emphatically answer no. I also have a pretty good handle on my strengths and weakness as a photographer, and what I need to work on to get the most out of that gear.

When I start losing business because of the read noise in my images, or there is potential to earn more business due to the reduced read noise of the D800, I will switch systems in a heartbeat. Realistically, there are far more variables involved in terms of both camera hardware and shooting technique, that will determine whether or not a client wants to hire me. Everyone has different needs, so if DR is very high on the priority list, purchase the best tool for the job on the market, the D800, and move on.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 08:26:56 PM by V8Beast »

briansquibb

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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2012, 08:03:12 PM »
Personally, I very rarely have the need to push the shadows that much, and the 5DIII is a better balanced machine for my needs. I just don't see why I should get upset about one aspect of camera performance (DR) that doesn't affect what I shoot all that much.

You misunderstand. The clean shadows means very low (almost non-existent) read noise on the sensor.

That read noise is going to be in every capture, it is only in shadows where it can be most easily demonstrated.

In effect, what this means that even a photo of a blue sky and beach (no shadows or anything) is going to be cleaner on the D800 than the 5D3, even if the signal drowns it out.

Now I understand why when processing raw files from Canon cameras the "black" value is considered to be 2048 (anything under 2048) on a scale of 0-16383 (for each of red, green and blue).

Noise isn't relevant unless it is visible when printed or displayed


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Re: 5D MK3 vs. D800 - fredmiranda
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2012, 08:03:12 PM »