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Author Topic: 7D MK2 APS-H??  (Read 18295 times)

Rob

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7D MK2 APS-H??
« on: March 29, 2011, 09:58:35 AM »
I was thinking if Canon did make the 1D MKV Full Frame, making the 7D MKll APS-h might be a good move. They could keep it EFS compatable with an in camera crop function and also put it ahead of its direct competition the D300s or D400, with having the bigger sensor advantage. What do you guys think?
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7D MK2 APS-H??
« on: March 29, 2011, 09:58:35 AM »

kubelik

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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2011, 10:43:37 AM »
I don't think the issue is whether or not you can in-camera crop the image, the issue is you can't mount EF-S lenses with their rear optic/flange positioning on a canon body with a mirror any larger than an APS-C sized mirror.  it's a mechanical and physical issue, not a "we want crop focal multiplier" issue.

EYEONE

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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2011, 04:23:22 PM »
Well it is interesting if they move the 1D up to FF. The APS-H format seems to be a big seller for Canon. I find it hard to believe they would just trash it. Though, rebranding three established camera lines is a little strange too.

I still think it would be possible to fit a APS-H mirror box behind an EF-S lens if the mirror could go up and back to lock in above the sensor. A movement similar to the Sony A900's mirror. It might require a crop mode for the sensor (but not as much as Nikon's FX to DX crop).

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IWLP

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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2011, 04:31:08 PM »
Well it is interesting if they move the 1D up to FF. The APS-H format seems to be a big seller for Canon. I find it hard to believe they would just trash it. Though, rebranding three established camera lines is a little strange too.

However, is the APS-H a big seller because photogs like that specific sensor size and crop factor or is it a big seller because it's what Canon has put in their pro journalism/sports bodies?

I can understand some of the allure of APS-H, but as someone who loves wide-angle perspective, it seems like the worst of both worlds.

Of course, YMMV.
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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2011, 04:37:14 PM »
However, is the APS-H a big seller because photogs like that specific sensor size and crop factor or is it a big seller because it's what Canon has put in their pro journalism/sports bodies?

The latter, I presume.  It represents a compromise between IQ and frame rate.  I suspect that if Canon can make a FF camera with 10 fps (the limitation is data throughput, since mirror/shutter assemblies supporting 10 fps were available in film bodies), that would somewhat obviate the APS-H sensor format.
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EYEONE

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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2011, 04:57:36 PM »
It makes sense to me to have a nice middle of the road crop factor that is still pretty good at wide angle but can give zooms a little more reach. I don't know, maybe they are going to make the 1Ds some 40mp monster with selectable crop factors to replace the 1D.

If they are making the 1D FF then they must we doing something strange with the 1Ds. Maybe crop mode or maybe square sensor, who knows.

I'll just say I don't think the 7D2 will have an APS-H sensor. But if it did I'd understand it.
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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2011, 05:22:43 PM »
However, is the APS-H a big seller because photogs like that specific sensor size and crop factor or is it a big seller because it's what Canon has put in their pro journalism/sports bodies?

The latter, I presume.  It represents a compromise between IQ and frame rate.  I suspect that if Canon can make a FF camera with 10 fps (the limitation is data throughput, since mirror/shutter assemblies supporting 10 fps were available in film bodies), that would somewhat obviate the APS-H sensor format.

When the original 1D was introduced, Canon bragged how the APS-H sensor was closer to FF size than than the 1.5X crop sensors used on the competitive Nikons of the time. Unfortunately, APS-H has become something of a cult. I wouldn't complain if the 7D2 was APS-H, but I also wouldn't pay any more for that sensor size than an APS-C sensor in a comparable camera.  I shoot with a 5D and 40D, with the 5D being used in most situations. The 40D is used almost exclusively with a 300 f/2.8 (+TCs sometimes) or a 100-400. I highly recommend this combination of sensor sizes.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 05:25:03 PM by Bob Howland »

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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2011, 05:22:43 PM »

Rob

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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2011, 06:36:25 PM »
I think if Canon did put an aps-h sensor in the next 7D, it would be important for them to retain the efs compatability, otherwise I think it probably wouldnt be worth it.
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foobar

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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2011, 07:22:51 PM »
My opinion on the topic:

  • It doesn't make sense to change the sensor format on an existing product line as it would only confuse consumers. The 7D series is the high-end APS-C body. If they make an APS-H version of it, it would probably be called something else.
  • EF-S compatibility might not be possible because of technical limitations (as previously stated)
  • APS-H has a bit of a cult following, especially among sports photographers, but for the average consumer, FF or APS-C makes more sense. E.g. you can't get ultra-wide lenses for APS-H or a 24-... equivalent zoom (in fact not even an 28-... equivalent).
  • If it's just about the reach - why not APS-C?
  • Does Canon (and do the consumers) really need three sensor formats?

I would even go as far as to suggest that APS-H is dying out. This format was just crutch because of sensor production limitations anyway (according to Canon's FF whitepaper it was the biggest sensor format they could manifacture in one piece). Since Nikon started making fast FF bodies, Canon has lost a lot of market share in the pro market. You now see a lot of D3s at events where it was almost 100% Canon just a few years ago. Canon has no option other than building a fast FF body to compete. Given the data thoughput possible even with Digic IV (a CPU from 2008!), it should be no problem to build a fast, high resolution FF body with todays technology. Also it would only need to have 28mp to be able to offer an APS-H crop mode at the same resolution as the current 1D.

Long story short: I wouldn't bet on any new APS-H bodies at Canon. There might be another 1D APS-H reincarnation and you'll probably be able to buy these bodies for years to come, but I don't think Canon will put any development efforts into expanding the APS-H range; they'll rather let the format slowly die out in favor of FF and APS-C.

gmrza

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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2011, 07:59:31 PM »
It makes sense to me to have a nice middle of the road crop factor that is still pretty good at wide angle but can give zooms a little more reach. I don't know, maybe they are going to make the 1Ds some 40mp monster with selectable crop factors to replace the 1D.

If they are making the 1D FF then they must we doing something strange with the 1Ds. Maybe crop mode or maybe square sensor, who knows.

I'll just say I don't think the 7D2 will have an APS-H sensor. But if it did I'd understand it.

Out of curiosity: What is the largest image circle, which could be projected using an EF mount lens?
Given that the EF mount has the largest diameter (54mm) of any small format SLR system, is it technically possible to project an image circle larger than that required for a 24x36mm sensor with a lens that has an
EF mount?
If it is possible, Canon could introduce a camera with a larger than full frame sensor?  The challenge then
is whether you could use existing EF lenses to produce a cropped image?  Using a larger sensor would
of course require totally new lenses if it were possible to project a larger image circle while still using an
EF mount.

If this is technically possible - someone who has a better understanding than me of optics may be able to comment - then Canon could possibly entertain a 1Ds with a < 1 crop factor, while still allowing the use of
existing EF lenses with a 1x crop factor.
What I would however envisage could also be a problem with this kind of scheme is that a standard EF
lens would have shorter back-focus distance than one projecting a larger image circle, thus one might have
the same problem which requires that EF-S lenses be incompatible with a standard EF mount in order to
prevent damage to the reflex mirror in a full frame camera.

Anyone who has a better understanding of optics care to comment?
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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2011, 08:45:30 PM »


Out of curiosity: What is the largest image circle, which could be projected using an EF mount lens?
Given that the EF mount has the largest diameter (54mm) of any small format SLR system, is it technically possible to project an image circle larger than that required for a 24x36mm sensor with a lens that has an
EF mount?
If it is possible, Canon could introduce a camera with a larger than full frame sensor?  The challenge then
is whether you could use existing EF lenses to produce a cropped image?  Using a larger sensor would
of course require totally new lenses if it were possible to project a larger image circle while still using an
EF mount.

If this is technically possible - someone who has a better understanding than me of optics may be able to comment - then Canon could possibly entertain a 1Ds with a < 1 crop factor, while still allowing the use of
existing EF lenses with a 1x crop factor.
What I would however envisage could also be a problem with this kind of scheme is that a standard EF
lens would have shorter back-focus distance than one projecting a larger image circle, thus one might have
the same problem which requires that EF-S lenses be incompatible with a standard EF mount in order to
prevent damage to the reflex mirror in a full frame camera.

Anyone who has a better understanding of optics care to comment?

The diameter of the lens mount is not limiting the lens coverage, its the lens design.  For example, the TS-E series of lenses has a much larger image circle than standard EF lenses, but otherwise uses the same mount and distance to back plane.

Third party APS-C lenses typically have a slightly larger lens coverage, and do not protrude into the body.  Their larger image circle may be due to their being designed to work with the Nikon DX bodies which have a 1.5 crop and need a larger coverage.  The lens optics are the same, just the camera interface is different.

Some take advantage of this to use third party crop lenses on APS-H and get reasonably good coverage.  Generally, you will get a lot more viginetting when you do this.

Nikon cameras, for example, have a smaller mount diameter, but it is not an issue, except perhaps for producing lenses with very large apertures greater than f 1.2.

GMCPhotographics

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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2011, 09:14:52 AM »
I think the biggest question that needs to be considered is...does the 1.33x crop offer any real world advantages over the current 1.62x crop on the 7D? I would wager that any difference is quite slim and marginal.
If Canon are to keep the 1.62x crop alive then it needs a top end camera for pre-sumers to aspire to. Hence the need for a 7D.

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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2011, 01:28:01 PM »
If Canon are to keep the 1.62x crop alive then it needs a top end camera for pre-sumers to aspire to. Hence the need for a 7D.

Why? 7D must be quite marginal in sales numbers compared to the total 60D/600D/1100D/older crop models, and they did quite well for many years without a high end 1.6 crop model. IMO a 1.3 crop 7D Mk II (or whatever Canon would call it) would make a lot of sense, particulary if the go FF with the 1D Mk V. The sensor area of a 1.3 crop is not that much bigger, but would allow sligthly higher resolution and better high Iso performance. If Canon (or consumers) feel the gap between 60D and a 7D Mk II is to big then Canon could easlily make a 70D slightly better specced.

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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2011, 01:28:01 PM »

GMCPhotographics

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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2011, 08:20:53 PM »
If Canon are to keep the 1.62x crop alive then it needs a top end camera for pre-sumers to aspire to. Hence the need for a 7D.

Why? 7D must be quite marginal in sales numbers compared to the total 60D/600D/1100D/older crop models, and they did quite well for many years without a high end 1.6 crop model. IMO a 1.3 crop 7D Mk II (or whatever Canon would call it) would make a lot of sense, particulary if the go FF with the 1D Mk V. The sensor area of a 1.3 crop is not that much bigger, but would allow sligthly higher resolution and better high Iso performance. If Canon (or consumers) feel the gap between 60D and a 7D Mk II is to big then Canon could easlily make a 70D slightly better specced.

True, but there seems to be a relationship between the aspirational models with the more volume offerings. When the 1DIII's AF fiasco kicked off, there was a slump in canon sales. When the 1D4 was realeased, there was more confidence in the Canon brand as a whole (or at least that's what my local dealer was saying). Another example, BMW's premier cars are their M series, but these models are quite niche and low volume. BMW claim that they add brand perception to the whole range and are probably the most important cars in their range in both engineering and marketing terms.
This is why I think that it is important for Canon to have a top single digit (7D) 1.62x croped camera.
I think Canon will be forced to make the 1D series a unified full frame 10 fps camera because of Nikon's D3/D700 range, which will make the 1.33x cropped sensor a thing of the past....which is a pity becuase it's a great format.

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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2011, 10:06:02 AM »
Here is 7D mark ii listed in this website

http://ps.no/ArtDtl.aspx?i=214396

It suggest the date to be 20th of april 2011.

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Re: 7D MK2 APS-H??
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2011, 10:06:02 AM »