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Author Topic: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]  (Read 35453 times)

RLPhoto

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2012, 08:24:52 AM »
If it surpasses or just evenly matches the D800 in RAW IQ. Alot of 5d3 users will be quite angry at canon. (Me Included)

Why?

You bought the best Canon camera that satisfied your needs and budget that was available at that point in time.

Seriously, people who think like this about digital cameras need a reality check.

It's not that the 5d3 is a good camera. It's the best camera I've ever shot with.

It's that canon could have done better but chose not to. Instead recycled tech to make more profits and then releases another camera we really wanted with a sensor superior to the 5d3 for around the same monies.

Digital cameras rot, an unfortunate truth but a reality. If this new camera is equally priced to the 5D3 with equal IQ to the d800, expect 5D3 prices to plummet.

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2012, 08:24:52 AM »

XanuFoto

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2012, 08:44:08 AM »

RPLPhoto

This is the way I look at it. If you are able to make money with the 5D MKIII then you should be happy. If you believe you can make more money using a higher pixel camera you could either move to Nikon or wait for Canon to release their high MP camera. The choices are still there and I love the fact the choices are still there. When the D700 did not have video and people wanted video they moved to the 5D. When the D700 guys wanted just video and not high MP they really did not get what they wanted. The point I am making is we do not control what marketing decisions these pick companies make. What I know is these guys cannot ever satisfy every customer.  The only thing I can control is to go out the and shoot the best images I can using the best equipment that works for my budget and business. You look at the photographer galleries at the London Olympics and they still seem to be dominated by Canon gear. These guys make money from their trade. And if Canon has kept them happy then I guess someone in their marketing has got it right. JMHO.

EchoLocation

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2012, 09:37:25 AM »
I am tired of Canon offering similar or inferior products to Nikon and pricing them significantly higher.

...you mean, like featherweight Big Whites, the TS-E 17 and 24 II, the MP-E 65, the built-in radio flash ETTL triggers, the entire Cinema line, the 12 FPS 1DX...?

Get a grip, man. Nikon's got a marginal advantage on one aspect of one feature of their cameras -- one that even comes with far more substantial image quality problems than it "solves" (color balance problems especially).

Sure, Nikon ekes out an extra stop or two of shadow recovery in scenes with truly miserable light. And if you make your living shooting in truly miserable light and you really need ISO 400-equivalent noise in your four-stops-pushed shadows as opposed to ISO 1000-equivalent noise, then maybe the D800 really is best for you.

But don't kid yourself into thinking that Nikon's making better cameras, let alone a better camera system. The stop or two of "extra" noise in the Canon shadows notwithstanding, the 5DIII blows the D800 out of the water. Color rendition, autofocus speed, autofocus reliability, framerate -- all those things that separate a modern camera from a Brownie, the Canon has the D800 beat hands down.

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No one is arguing that Nikon has a more complete system than Canon. Heck, I bought in to Canon's system by choice just a few years ago.
If I needed tilt shift or exotic zooms I'd most likely get Canon at this point. However, I am simply an amateur enthusiast who wants some competetively priced awesome performing fast primes, zooms and the occasional new body.
The new Canon primes aren't particularly fast(2.8: 24mm, 28mm, 40mm,) and 2/3rds of these are extremely expensive for what they are. The new Nikon primes have been 1.8 and similarly priced if not cheaper(no pancake.)
I like the 5DIII, but I think it is very overpriced. I love the 24-70 II, but I think it's very overpriced as well. The 1DX is 800 dollars more expensive than the D4 and I'm not hearing many people with a D4 complaining.
The D7000 kills any APS-C Canon camera in terms of image quality and DR, and it is much cheaper than a 7D.
I know there are other variables than what I have mentioned, but for me, a person who travels constantly, shoots for fun, likes to save money and travel as light as possible, the last year of following Canon has been a lot of bad news.
Anyone talking about exotic glass, tilt shifts and 1DX's obviously is pretty deep in whatever system they have chosen and are likely to not be a candidate for switching to the dark side. A high priced, high MP camera is made exactly for a person with these lenses and fully entrenched in the system. But I am very skeptical of Canon being able to make a sensor better than the current Sony sensor in the D800. If the price ends up being where it is rumored to be at now(i remember hearing 4K, or north) then it will just be another in a string of products which are more expensive than competitors. I hope this trend doesn't continue.
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XanuFoto

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2012, 09:46:11 AM »
EchoLocation,

Canon and Nikon will sell and price their cameras at a point where they can sell. As long as you have reached a point as a photographer where your skill level can overcome the equipment deficiences you should not have any problems with either. Nikon and Canon are the top 2 companies now and even year of two one of them will be in a slight lead. Don't let minor diffrences get in the way of you photography.

RLPhoto

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2012, 10:04:21 AM »

RPLPhoto

This is the way I look at it. If you are able to make money with the 5D MKIII then you should be happy. If you believe you can make more money using a higher pixel camera you could either move to Nikon or wait for Canon to release their high MP camera. The choices are still there and I love the fact the choices are still there. When the D700 did not have video and people wanted video they moved to the 5D. When the D700 guys wanted just video and not high MP they really did not get what they wanted. The point I am making is we do not control what marketing decisions these pick companies make. What I know is these guys cannot ever satisfy every customer.  The only thing I can control is to go out the and shoot the best images I can using the best equipment that works for my budget and business. You look at the photographer galleries at the London Olympics and they still seem to be dominated by Canon gear. These guys make money from their trade. And if Canon has kept them happy then I guess someone in their marketing has got it right. JMHO.

I could make money with a d30 if I wanted too. I prefer the usability of newer tech but that's another conversation for a different thread.

Canon used to innovate and deliver the best they could in the 1Ds days. Now it seems they've been listening too much to accountants than photographers in not doing there very best. Just my 2 cents.

mathino

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2012, 10:28:26 AM »
EchoLocation,

Canon and Nikon will sell and price their cameras at a point where they can sell. As long as you have reached a point as a photographer where your skill level can overcome the equipment deficiences you should not have any problems with either. Nikon and Canon are the top 2 companies now and even year of two one of them will be in a slight lead. Don't let minor diffrences get in the way of you photography.

You are right. They price it at point that makes sense for them to have such a product.

I like Canon mainly because of control layout and menus etc - its more user friendly and quicker to adjust/learn. I had a chance to shoot with some sort of Nikon (lower end DSLR) and all button placement and menus were so unnutural to me (I was not able to access 2nd curtain sync on flash and via menu). But, it was on location and I havent got chance to study manual. For me - working with Canon DSLRs feels just more fluent.

And...If you know your equip and its limits (how to overcome them) then brand is not important because you can get your desired result with both.

My 2 cents to more DR/more MPx/5D Mk III discussion:
  • as far as I can remember, complanis about 5D Mk II were mainly in regard of its AF and maybe slow burst rate - nothing about not enough reoslution and dynamic range - so Canon responded to complains upgraded AF to best and gived us 6 fps and all-in-all better all-around camera
  • 5D Mk III - seems to me like more 1Ds Mk III replacement in smaller package - higher FPS, +- same MPx etc with video
  • 5D-X or whatever it will be - true studio oriented camera, I think that Canon is developing 45-47 MPx sensor for it, probably 4 fps at most, ISO to 6400 and better DR to addres it as D800 competitor, priced around 4 k
  • pricing of 5D-X - 4k becasue I think that it will be better then D800 (+- same DR), maybe even 4K video - and Canon users will pay for it
  • last thing - no way you get 45-47 MPx from Canon cheaper then 5D Mk III, if price for 5D Mk III falls to 2500 USD then maybe 5D-X would be around 3500 USD
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 10:33:11 AM by mathino »
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Bosman

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2012, 10:43:03 AM »
I'm going to have to take issue that anyone was screwed by Canon or this rumored high mp camera. I use my 5dm3 with complete satisfaction cept some niggles like focus point viewablity.
The other i take issue with is that people think the 5dm2 stole the ground from the 1dsm3, like that could happen. Canon made it for those who need the build and durability and those who did got what they wanted, they didn't buy a 5dm2 instead. Seriously, Canon isn't hurt by you not buying a 1d series. They made it for the hc pro's and anyone who wants to plop down the money.
I don't feel sympathetic to anyone in the 1dx camp, those who bought it bought it with full knowledge of what it was made of and put their money down. Theres nothing to feel remorse over, you got what you paid for. Its no slouch at that either. If you didn't buy the 1dx because it didn't help you much then you don't upgrade, if you did then you prob just had money to burn for the latest tech. No one can blame Canon if their gear is obsolete to the purchaser when you knew what you were agreeing to when you bought it. I'd say if the 5dm3 or 1dx doesn't fit your upgrade path then wait, or swtich to Nikon for the d800. I never believed Canon would only have the 1dx, i figured they had to come out with something with major resolution and it doesn't have to be called a 1d. It can have the build and size of the 1d but it doesn't have to be. When they claim to have merged the line it didn't mean they didn't have something more exotic planned.
Some will never be happy and i feel sorry for you. :D
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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2012, 10:43:03 AM »

bdunbar79

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2012, 10:55:12 AM »
I'm going to have to take issue that anyone was screwed by Canon or this rumored high mp camera. I use my 5dm3 with complete satisfaction cept some niggles like focus point viewablity.
The other i take issue with is that people think the 5dm2 stole the ground from the 1dsm3, like that could happen. Canon made it for those who need the build and durability and those who did got what they wanted, they didn't buy a 5dm2 instead. Seriously, Canon isn't hurt by you not buying a 1d series. They made it for the hc pro's and anyone who wants to plop down the money.
I don't feel sympathetic to anyone in the 1dx camp, those who bought it bought it with full knowledge of what it was made of and put their money down. Theres nothing to feel remorse over, you got what you paid for. Its no slouch at that either. If you didn't buy the 1dx because it didn't help you much then you don't upgrade, if you did then you prob just had money to burn for the latest tech. No one can blame Canon if their gear is obsolete to the purchaser when you knew what you were agreeing to when you bought it. I'd say if the 5dm3 or 1dx doesn't fit your upgrade path then wait, or swtich to Nikon for the d800. I never believed Canon would only have the 1dx, i figured they had to come out with something with major resolution and it doesn't have to be called a 1d. It can have the build and size of the 1d but it doesn't have to be. When they claim to have merged the line it didn't mean they didn't have something more exotic planned.
Some will never be happy and i feel sorry for you. :D

I agree with everything you said except, The 5D Mark II actually DID steal ground from the 1Ds Mark III.  That is a well-known fact.  I even bought the 5D Mark II instead back then, because it was cheaper and had the same resolution.  Most of the pros I knew from 2008-current never owned a 1Ds3 simply because of the 5D Mark II.
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mathino

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2012, 11:11:10 AM »
as far as I can remember, complanis about 5D Mk II were mainly in regard of its AF and maybe slow burst rate - nothing about not enough reoslution and dynamic range - so Canon responded to complains upgraded AF to best and gived us 6 fps and all-in-all better all-around camera

That was before the D800 existed.

Now the D800 exists so that is now the yard stick by which every other DSLR of that form factor will be measured when it comes to IQ.

The D800 ushered in a new era of DSLR with its sensor just as the 10D with its price and the 5DMarkII did with HD video.

True, Im not denying that. But D800 was announced on 7th of February and 5D Mk III month later. What Im trying to say is that 5D Mk III development could have ended months before D800 announcement so no possibility to respond.

I think that Canon is aware of DR/high MPx problem and they make sure that their response would be equal/better in terms of DR with even higher MPx count - and they would ask for it more dollars than D800. Sure, new high MPx wont be for new comers - but 5D Mk III is not for enthusiasts too (in terms of price). D600 and 6D (entry level FF) would be for people entering FF world. Then from 6D you can upgrade either to 5D Mk III, high MPx body or 1D-X - depends on needs and profitability of such investment.
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mathino

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2012, 11:21:54 AM »
If the leaked image of the D600 LCD panel is anything to go by then it will have DPS, 51 point focus,  WiFi support and HDR.

How many of those features will be in the next FF Canon DSLR?

Well, if you check D800 manual (pages 10-12 I think) you will see its exactly the same informational screen as D800. So its rather a good hoax - nothing more. On Nikon rumors it is stated that this comes from some facebook page of Thailand photographer (who has a lot of D800 pics in his albums).

But, its strange that its quiet about both "entry level" FF from Canon and Nikon.
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rumorzmonger

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2012, 11:29:19 AM »

Now the D800 exists so that is now the yard stick by which every other DSLR of that form factor will be measured when it comes to IQ.


Only if you're shooting Nikon factory-approved test targets in a controlled studio setting.

Out in the real world, the D800's second-rate lenses and third-rate AF pretty much offset any IQ gains the sensor is theoretically capable of producing...
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jthomson

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2012, 12:12:04 PM »


Now the D800 exists so that is now the yard stick by which every other DSLR of that form factor will be measured when it comes to IQ.
Quote



I find it strange that one of Nikons biggest fanboys says  "The Canon EOS 5D Mark III is the world's best digital SLR. It easily lets us create smooth, clean, beautiful and colorful images in any sort of light."-Ken Rockwell
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 12:13:35 PM by jthomson »

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2012, 12:21:43 PM »
There is all the saying about how much ahead Sony sensor is vs Canon and that the 5D3's sensor has not improved from the 5D2.

Firstly, the 5D3 sensor uses a gapless microlens design which was not used before. Numerous test have shown that it has improved over the 5D2 by at least 1-2 stops. So it is quite unreasonable to say that the sensor has not improved.

Secondly, I noticed that most of the test showing the D800 having a better noise performance than the 5D3 often involved downscaling or upscaling the image to the same size... When showed at exactly the same size, it is often obvious that the D800 is noisier than the 5D3. When downscaling is involved, even the Nokia Pureview 808 showed remarkable improved noise performance. Now, is this purely due to sensor technology?

Given Canon's 18mpx APS-C sensor technology, they can produce a 46mpx FF sensor without having to do too much. At the noise level of the 60D and if one were to downscale the 46mpx image to 36mpx (or 22mpx), I am very sure the noise level will be very comparable to the D800 or better. Shadow noise is a real concern for Canon however. Hopefully they can start putting in an on-chip ADC soon.

Thirdly, DR. Perhaps someone can show me proper photos showing what those 3-4 EV advantage that Sony sensor supposedly boasts as compared to a photo taken with a Canon camera. I would be convinced then. Right now, all I hear is 'scientific' tests with a bunch of numbers. A proper set of photos would convince me what advantage a Sony's sensor has in terms of DR. So far, all I have seen is a bunch of numbers.

Lastly, the whole point of all this megapixel. In DPReview's tests, they admitted that getting that observable resolution advantage from the D800/D800E required a lot of care and effort. Only in lab condition and at very specific lens type and setting can they achieve that resolution advantage. All this while, one has to carry around that extra bits of file size and run out of drive space consistently.

If we look at the AF speed comparison on imaging-resource.com, it is very obvious that the 5D3 focuses almost 2x as fast as the D800 and do not suffer as badly from delays in buffer clearing, etc. That in itself makes the 5D3 a much more usable all-rounded camera.

So Canon should make a high mpx camera, by all means. Landscape and studio photographers would love that. It would definitely not affect the target market of 5D3 - People who need an all-rounded camera.

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2012, 12:21:43 PM »

jrista

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2012, 12:23:00 PM »
I certainly wouldn't say we are "firmly" in the realm of diminishing returns. I think Nikon and Sony proved that with the D800's sensor. It not only added considerably to pixel density, it improved the quality of those pixels as well. A 36mp sensor has 4.6 micron pixels, which are LARGER than the 4.3 micron pixels of Canon's 18mp APS-C sensors as well as the new 24mp sensors used in the D3200. Again, Sony and Nikon have demonstrated that a 24mp APS-C sensor, which is pushing 130lp/mm in terms of spatial resolution, is also capable of not only having more pixels, but pixels of higher quality.

The question is not whether Canon can produce a high MP sensor. The question is whether Canon can compete and produce a high MP sensor with BETTER QUALITY PIXELS than any of their current sensors, including the 1D X and 5D III. By eliminating almost all noise in Exmor (there is only about 2-3 electrons worth...not much more to remove), SoNikon have basically set the stage...the only thing LEFT TO DO once you perfect the pixel is pack more of them in.

Waw, after you, pixel quality = pixel size  :o ? Do you know that the sensor of your 7D have a pixel density equivalent to a 46MP FF sensor?

Sure I know that. It would actually be a 47.6mp FF sensor, to be exact.

The D800 proved that you DO NOT have to drop pixel quality along with pixel size. The D800 proved that when you have very little electronic noise, even a tiny 4.6 micron pixel can produce great images. Once electronic noise reaches a practical floor, the only thing left to really worry about is quantum efficiency. (I would say the best we could do is reduce electronic noise down to 1-2 electrons/pixel during read...Sony is down to 2-3 in the D800, so they'll probably wrap up the noise problem for good within another generation.) I think the D800 has Q.E. of over 55%, which is one of the best on the market.

With increased quantum efficiency comes increased SNR, and that remaining 1-3 electrons worth of read noise becomes a less and less significant factor of the signal as Q.E. continues to improve. I'm not sure how high we can get Q.E. in consumer-grade sensors, however with BSI thermoelectric cooling (peltier effect) scientific grade CCD's reduced to -35°C nearly eliminate thermal inefficiencies and reduce dark current by as much as 200x, achieving Q.E.s higher than 80%. Combine that technology with Sony Exmor, and we could be looking at nearly 100% Q.E., which would be a thing of wonder.

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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2012, 12:29:45 PM »
I agree with everything you said except, The 5D Mark II actually DID steal ground from the 1Ds Mark III.  That is a well-known fact.  I even bought the 5D Mark II instead back then, because it was cheaper and had the same resolution.  Most of the pros I knew from 2008-current never owned a 1Ds3 simply because of the 5D Mark II.

A lot of 1DS3 were sold - but to a relatively small market niche

However the 5D2 filled another market and sold like hot cakes. Some pros bought it purely from a ROI point of view rather than for IQ.

Whilst the 5D2 had the same mps it lost out significantly on fps, colour rendition and AF.

There are a lot of 1DS3 on the used market now - showing that it did sell


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Re: Big Megapixels Coming Soon? [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2012, 12:29:45 PM »