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Author Topic: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?  (Read 18304 times)

Unposed-Jeff

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Re: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2012, 03:11:42 PM »
But for us, whose entire income comes from photography, we need to nit pick the options our manufacturer offers us as it can influence our work...  So yes some of us may be "Armchair Spec Readers" but that is because our lively hood depends on the tools we use everyday.

If you're a pro, why would you even be looking at the 6D?  Don't get me wrong, I think the 1/180th kinda sucks for amateur strobists.  But, someone who makes their livelihood from photography probably shouldn't be looking at "entry-level" FF cameras, right?  Canon's not marketing this camera to or making it for pros, they're doing it for enthusiasts with lots of spare cash.  The 1D's, the 5D's, and the 7D are the pro tools.  If I made my living off photography, I wouldn't trust any other Canon DSLRs to be my main tool.

Thats exactly the problem.  This camera is a Pro model, but it sounds like canon is dumbing and watering down the Pro bloodline.  And being that our entire living comes from these tools it is imperative that we keep tabs on the new technology even if it isn't the tool for us.  It is also good for those of us who use these tools full time as well as all of the part-timers and hobbyists to discuss these tools for our own understanding as well as for the advancement of the products.

We all know that this sync speed and max shutter are not physical limitations but rather Canon introduced limits to separate the 6D from the 5d3.  All while making FF affordable to the world minus the AF limits and other assorted suck with this camera.  It worries me that cheapening the FF cameras will only make the Professional Photogs life much harder as anyone can now afford a pro camera.  The hard part for us will be distinguishing ourselves from the people who have the tools but don't have the foggiest idea how they can really be used to capture so many great moments in time.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2012, 03:59:58 PM »
We all know that this sync speed and max shutter are not physical limitations but rather Canon introduced limits to separate the 6D from the 5d3.

How do 'we' know that?  The 1D X has a shutter capable of 12 fps and 1/250 s X-sync, with 400K cycle durability, and likely a lot of engineering R&D went into that. The 5DIII is 6 fps, 1/200 s X-sync, and 150K durability.  The fact that the 6D only goes to 4.5 fps (despite the same Digic5+ with fewer MP to process), and the reduced 100K durability, rather strongly suggest that the slower X-sync is a direct result of the slower, cheaper shutter - a physical limitation.  So...you can leave me out of 'we all'.
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Leadfingers

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Re: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2012, 04:21:30 PM »
I have to admit.. I don't understand why this is an issue at all.

Based on my (very limited) understanding, your flash is only on for 1/1000th of a second.  So it shouldn't matter whether the sync speed is 1/180, 1/200, or 1/500....

What am I missing?
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bdunbar79

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Re: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2012, 04:23:51 PM »
I have to admit.. I don't understand why this is an issue at all.

Based on my (very limited) understanding, your flash is only on for 1/1000th of a second.  So it shouldn't matter whether the sync speed is 1/180, 1/200, or 1/500....

What am I missing?

You're not missing anything.  If you know what in the hell you're doing, you can really do wonders with high flash sync modes.  I agree with you, learn some photography to overcome the base sync speed.  I typically just open my aperture a stop to let in more light, then flash away at 1/5000 even.  It's not hard.
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theqspeaks

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Re: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2012, 04:24:52 PM »
But for us, whose entire income comes from photography, we need to nit pick the options our manufacturer offers us as it can influence our work...  So yes some of us may be "Armchair Spec Readers" but that is because our lively hood depends on the tools we use everyday.

If you're a pro, why would you even be looking at the 6D?  Don't get me wrong, I think the 1/180th kinda sucks for amateur strobists.  But, someone who makes their livelihood from photography probably shouldn't be looking at "entry-level" FF cameras, right?  Canon's not marketing this camera to or making it for pros, they're doing it for enthusiasts with lots of spare cash.  The 1D's, the 5D's, and the 7D are the pro tools.  If I made my living off photography, I wouldn't trust any other Canon DSLRs to be my main tool.

Thats exactly the problem.  This camera is a Pro model, but it sounds like canon is dumbing and watering down the Pro bloodline.  And being that our entire living comes from these tools it is imperative that we keep tabs on the new technology even if it isn't the tool for us.  It is also good for those of us who use these tools full time as well as all of the part-timers and hobbyists to discuss these tools for our own understanding as well as for the advancement of the products.

We all know that this sync speed and max shutter are not physical limitations but rather Canon introduced limits to separate the 6D from the 5d3.  All while making FF affordable to the world minus the AF limits and other assorted suck with this camera.  It worries me that cheapening the FF cameras will only make the Professional Photogs life much harder as anyone can now afford a pro camera.  The hard part for us will be distinguishing ourselves from the people who have the tools but don't have the foggiest idea how they can really be used to capture so many great moments in time.

I disagree that Canon considers this a true "pro" camera.  In the press release for the 6D, they call it a "mid-range" camera "designed for advanced amateurs."  Yes, the release talks about pro-quality features, but that's likely mostly just marketing--trying to encourage enthusiasts and semi-pros to step up to a more expensive camera.  And, considering how much disdain pros have for the 6D already, it's kinda contradictory to claim that the 6D is a "pro model" while at the same time saying that it is totally insufficient for pros.

Regardless, your argument about the 6D making life harder for pros is absurd on its face.  If some newb can make better photos on a 6D than you, the Professional Photog, can make on a 5D3, then you're doing something wrong, not Canon.  If you can't distinguish your work from people with a 6D who "don't have the foggiest idea" how to use it, what does that say about your skills as a pro? 

Look, I'm not trying to start a flame war or put you down in any way.  Obviously, pros needs to keep up on the newest gear to know what tools are available to them for their profession.  And, the 6D probably isn't an ideal tool for many pros.  But that doesn't mean the 6D is a bad camera.  For Canon users, it has significantly lowered the cost of moving into the FF world.  And Canon has created the smallest and lightest FF ever (which might appeal to some landscape photogs), and that ain't nothing. 

Just like how for some folks the 7D is/was a better choice than the 5D2, the 6D is gonna be good for some and not for others.  If you do strobist, the 6D (and Canons generally) isn't your best bet because of the flash sync.  And, going back to the OP's original question, if I was a big strobist enthusiast hoping to upgrade from my Canon crop sensor to a Canon FF, yeah, I'd probably be pissed. 

ScottyP

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Re: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2012, 04:52:44 PM »
Also strange is that even the top-of-the-line Canon FFs can't do 1/300 X-Sync like the 1D3/1D4 APS-H, only 1/250, but the top-end Nikon FFs since the D3 can do it. So that fact belies the Canon apologist's excuse that the bigger travel distance for the shutter blades due to the larger FF sensor is the reason for the slower X-Sync.

Is that gutsy or not?  A username that is an anagram for "Nikon Fanboy"??
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Zlatko

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Re: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2012, 05:37:24 PM »
Is no one else bothered by the piss poor max sync speed of the 6D?
High speed sync is still available.

aznable

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Re: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2012, 05:42:00 PM »
I have to admit.. I don't understand why this is an issue at all.

Based on my (very limited) understanding, your flash is only on for 1/1000th of a second.  So it shouldn't matter whether the sync speed is 1/180, 1/200, or 1/500....

What am I missing?

easy...the d600 sync at 1/2xx that's more than 1/180
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bvukich

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Re: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2012, 07:15:26 PM »
I have to admit.. I don't understand why this is an issue at all.

Based on my (very limited) understanding, your flash is only on for 1/1000th of a second.  So it shouldn't matter whether the sync speed is 1/180, 1/200, or 1/500....

What am I missing?

It's because at faster shutter speeds the shutter doesn't expose the entire sensor at the same time, it's just a slit that's open between the two curtains.  The x-sync speed is the faster shutter speed where the whole thing is exposed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal-plane_shutter

bdunbar79

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Re: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2012, 07:17:04 PM »
Right, so at 1/500, open the aperture more.  You'll do okay  8)
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Ewinter

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Re: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2012, 07:27:17 PM »
Quote
If you're a pro, why would you even be looking at the 6D?

Because not all pros have "made it". I need a 2nd body, I'd like it to be full frame and I can't give up my 7d to make the extra money for the 5dIII. I quite like the idea of the 6D; I also like wireless tethering. I'd rather get a 6d that has limitations I can work around than buy a camera that I then have to drop another £500 on just to get it to tether the way I like.
That £500 is a good amount towards nice glass.
I'd like a 5d III, sure. But for my business now? It'll be the 6D

neuroanatomist

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Re: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2012, 08:56:24 PM »
I have to admit.. I don't understand why this is an issue at all.

Based on my (very limited) understanding, your flash is only on for 1/1000th of a second.  So it shouldn't matter whether the sync speed is 1/180, 1/200, or 1/500....

What am I missing?

What your 'missing' is the way a shutter works. There are two curtains, an exposure is taken with the first curtain opening across the sensor, followed by the second curtain closing across the sensor.  But the curtains can only move so fast. The X-sync speed is the fastest shutter speed at which the first curtain completes its traverse before the second curtain has to start. At faster shutter speeds, both curtains are crossing together, and the exposure is a moving 'window' that gets progressively narrower with faster shutter speeds, down to just a thin slit.

So...at fast shutter speeds, you have moving slit of the sensor exposed, and a flash strobe duration of 1/1000 s to 1/35000 s.  That means the flash is only active for a fraction of the curtain 'window' traverse, and you have darker/black (depending on ambient light) bars at the top and bottom of the frame.

The 'solution' is high speed sync (HSS), which allows you to go faster than the X-sync speed. The penalty is a big reduction in flash power.
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DB

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Re: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2012, 09:28:25 PM »
As others have said above, if you purchase a more expensive flashgun with HSS, the flash sync issue becomes a non-issue on the 6D (as long as your flash is powerful).

Where the 1/180s becomes a more limiting problem, will be for those owners who purchase a cheaper flash that does not support HSS. In those instances, especially shooting outdoors during daytime where the ambient light is strong the photographer may need to use as fast a shutter speed as his equipment will allow, therefore 1/300s or 1/250s may be better than 1/180s depending on how strong the sunlight is.

[Remember your aperture setting controls the amount of reflected light or flash, whereas the shutter speed determines the amount of ambient/everywhere light in the exposure - thus adjusting the ratio of flash to natural is done via playing Aperture vs Shutter]

Notwithstanding all of that, if a prospective 6D owner can afford to pony-up 2 grand+ for a camera body, then they can certainly afford to pay another 500 bucks for a decent flash unit like the 600EX

Also remember what Neuro said about shutter mechanism quality (after all we're talking moving parts in an expensive electronic device here) - the 1DX is rated for about 400,000 shutter cycles, so clearly has the best quality parts and a decent x-sync rate, whereas both the 5D3 and 7D are rated at approximately 150,000 actuations (with the 7D mechanism being a modified version of the 1DIIn & 1DIII) hence the 1/200s and 1/250s x-sync speeds respectively. Ergo, given that the new 6D is ONLY rated for 100,000 shutter cycles - the same as most Rebels, Canon obviously believe that the 6D shutter is a bit more fragile, so do not want to stress it too much as well.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 09:38:34 PM by DB »

ScottyP

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Re: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2012, 09:40:17 PM »
Per David Hobby; "The Strobist":

Hobby rejects the Nikon D600 out-of-hand because it has only 1/200 sync speed.  Nice to see someone ragging on Nikon for a change, yet bummer that this is actually faster than the 6D if 1/180 is going to be it.

See article:  http://strobist.blogspot.com/2012/09/nikon-d600-think-twice-before-you-jump.html

Hobby relies a lot on the high shutter to overpower ambient light.  He says he wants 1/250th. 

Just saying, there's no need to savage the OP.  He is in good company on this point.
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ScottyP

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Re: 6D Sync speed only 1/180s?
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2012, 09:46:18 PM »
Per David Hobby; "The Strobist":

Hobby rejects the Nikon D600 out-of-hand because it has only 1/200 sync speed.  Nice to see someone ragging on Nikon for a change, yet bummer that this is actually faster than the 6D if 1/180 is going to be it.

See article:  http://strobist.blogspot.com/2012/09/nikon-d600-think-twice-before-you-jump.html

Hobby relies a lot on the high shutter to overpower ambient light.  He says he wants 1/250th. 

Just saying, there's no need to savage the OP.  He is in good company on this point.

Oops.  I swear I am not bumping my own post, but I failed to notice the little "update" at the bottom that appeared since I first read this.  He gives a quick "Sheeesh!" to the new 6D and the 1/180th.
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