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Author Topic: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?  (Read 25359 times)

360_6pack

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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2012, 02:50:00 PM »
Thank you all for your feedback. I think I shall continue to shoot raw and Ljpeg but with adobeRGB set to take advantage of the larger colour range if I want to show a photo immediately to friends on my laptop.

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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2012, 02:50:00 PM »

RLPhoto

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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2012, 02:51:23 PM »
Thank you all for your feedback. I think I shall continue to shoot raw and Ljpeg but with adobeRGB set to take advantage of the larger colour range if I want to show a photo immediately to friends on my laptop.

99% of any monitor made today cannot display the extra color range of ARGB. Infact, some web browsers may show your colors dull because of this.

cpsico

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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2012, 09:30:00 PM »
Thank you all for your feedback. I think I shall continue to shoot raw and Ljpeg but with adobeRGB set to take advantage of the larger colour range if I want to show a photo immediately to friends on my laptop.
I think you may have misunderstood how raw works, it can be converted to adobe or srgb in  digital photo from canon. Honestly your jpegs will look aweful when shooting adobe color space.

You can get both by shooting raw and jpeg in srgb. Then output the individual raw files to 16 bit tiff after you have changed your color space in your raw converter.

When you shoot raw all of your data is preserved and you can change back and forth to different color spaces.

koolkurkle

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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2012, 05:40:28 AM »
Actually, if shooting in Adobe RGB matters, you've already dumbed it down a lot, because that means you're shooting JPG.  If you're shooting RAW, color space is irrelevant - you can set it later.


You are right, I set mine to Adobe RGB but use raw, so it really made no difference.  I use Lightroom 4 which has a prophoto gamut that is even wider.
 I can do a soft proofing to my printer / paper profile and bring the colors into gamut as required.


You know, this has me thinking (a dangerous pasttime, I know...).  I've often made the argument that the in-camera jpg settings do matter if you shoot RAW, indirectly, because the in-camera settings are applied to the JPG preview image that's reviewed on the LCD and used to generate the histograms.  So, to the extent that you make exposure decisions based on the preview image, histograms, or blinking highlight alert, those JPG settings matter. 

I wonder...what is the gamut of the camera's LCD, would sRGB vs. Adobe RGB make a difference in color channel saturation, a difference in the histogram or highlight alert calls, etc.?


I shoot RAW and use UniWB.  Adobe RGB is important for those who use UniWB because sRGB shows inaccurate highlight clipping.  For anything you could ever want to know about the histogram on the back of your camera, go to http://www.rawdigger.com/houtouse/beware-histogram

This quote below from the above link is what got me interested in UniWB, which is also explained by the article. (Minor thread hijack to follow...)

"In standard (i.e. corresponding to the shooting conditions) white balance settings, the camera histogram and the camera overexposure indicator cannot be used to control overexposure."

For anyone who wants to skip the "why" and just try UniWB (like ETTR, but better), here is the quick and dirty.  I don't claim to be a UniWB expert, and there are different ways to go about the process, but I have had excellent results with the following technique. (This only works for RAW shooting)

1.  Cover the eyepiece and take a picture with lens cap on (I know what you're thinking) at the fastest shutter and smallest aperture.
2.  Set your custom white balance to the picture you took in "1."
3.  In picture style, set maximum saturation and max contrast
4.  Set colorspace to Adobe RGB

Increase exposure compensation until you get blinking highlights, then backoff a third of a stop.  The previews on the camera LCD will have a green cast and look terrible.  Process in ACR and use Auto WB to get in the ballpark.  YMMV, but I am a happy convert.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 06:17:46 AM by koolkurkle »

EvaCasado

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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2012, 04:52:41 PM »
Always work with AdobeRGB the gamut is wider than in sRGB, if your lab ask for sRGB files change your lab hehe. sRGB is for internet JPG´s in order to achieve the same result on different screen setups.

Sitting Elf

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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2012, 09:49:06 PM »
Thank you all for your feedback. I think I shall continue to shoot raw and Ljpeg but with adobeRGB set to take advantage of the larger colour range if I want to show a photo immediately to friends on my laptop.

If that is the primary use of your photos, then sRGB is the answer.  The time-honored rule is that if your photos are primarily for display via the web or on a computer, then sRGB is the most that a computer display can present via the web.

However, if you are planning to print high-end, then shoot raw in AdobeRGB which gives you the option to convert later when printing yourself or working with a professional lab that has printers that can print the entire color gamut of aRGB.

koolkurkle

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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2012, 07:07:57 PM »
"However, if you are planning to print high-end, then shoot raw in AdobeRGB which gives you the option to convert later when printing yourself or working with a professional lab that has printers that can print the entire color gamut of aRGB."

Incorrect with regards to RAW.  You can set any white balance, and use either sRGB or AdobeRGB and there is no effect on the RAW file.  If you shoot Jpeg, you can select AdobeRGB instead of sRGB, but I don't know why anyone would do this instead of just shooting RAW and developing to AdobeRGB.  As I mentioned in my earlier post, there is one good reason to select AdobeRGB; to make the histogram more useful for determining correct exposure.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 07:09:46 PM by koolkurkle »

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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2012, 07:07:57 PM »

SPL

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AdobeRGB VS sRGB
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2012, 10:15:11 AM »
Hey everyone!,

I hope I’m not bringing up an old post/topic (I think I am..) but would like some opinions and advice.  I was recently viewing an online instruction video and the instructor strongly advised the importance of setting your camera to the AdobeRGB setting as this was better than the factory setting of sRGB.  I have read that this isn’t very important and can actually cause some difficulties with labs attempting to process prints.  So,…what do people generally use?,…I am an amateur/hobbyist,…I usually shoot RAW with a 7D & 5D III.  Any thoughts?

Thanks!

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Re: AdobeRGB VS sRGB
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2012, 11:47:51 AM »
Three things really

1) You always want to use sRGB for any images that go to the web, or they won't display very well.  They will look flat - low saturation - and lower contrast/gamma.

2) You usually want to use AdobeRGB for printing. That is a "larger" color space that most printing equipment - like Epson photo printers - can make use of. Some of the less sophisticated labs will ask for images in sRGB, but you are better off finding a lab that can handle AdobeRGB.

3) I usually shoot RAW+JPG.  When I am going to use the JPG directly on the web, I will shoot with sRGB and appropriate settings. When I am going to process the images in Lightroom, etc., I use AdobeRGB and set Saturation, Contrast, and Sharpening to low, so that the LCD reflects what I will be able to "pull out of" my RAW.  The immediate representation in Lightroom (based on the camera settings) will also be much closer to my final image.


So, basically, you can either adjust your camera so that a) The LCD reflects the wider range that you can get from RAW, or b) The JPG straight out of camera looks the way you want it to, for minimal processing prior to posting online (or sending to print, with adobeRGB, etc.)


This is a quick overview, obviously there are lots of details around each area/point.

Good luck!
Michael

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Re: AdobeRGB VS sRGB
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2012, 12:02:09 PM »
If you shoot RAW the camera's color space doesn't matter but if you shoot jpeg keep it in sRGB just to be safe and avoid all complications later on. I hope one day technology will be synchronous and AdobeRGB will be the standard (or something else that offers a wider gamut) on every screen and printer but until then we will just have to make the best of sRGB!
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derek

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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2013, 01:51:13 AM »
This thread comes up fairly high on the subject in the Google rankings (I was actually looking for something else), but there seems to be a lot of confusion.

SHOOTING

Quick Summary of Camera Settings

sRGB : Use for Digital display medium such as monitors, phone screens, tablets, web publishing, embedding into video games, etc.  (probably 90% of what people do with their photos these days). 

AdobeRGB : High-end printing.  Requires the proper print driver, print profile and a quality printer, or useful for sending the photo to a professional print shop.

JPEG : Embeds the color-space information.  Set the camera up correctly (white balance, sharpness, presets like Portrait or Landscape, exposure, etc.) or suffer the consequences of ruined shots.  Does not require further processing on the computer to develop a usable photo file.  As a correlation, most additional processing may not be possible.

RAW : Colorspace (and most camera settings) are ignored and stored as mere suggestions for further processing tools. Full control over every detail of the photo, requires time and dedication to process the "RAW" negative into a JPEG.  Most mistakes (except ISO, shutterspeed, aperature) can be fixed.

Colorspace
When you set up your Canon for shooting, the first thing to think about is what you will be doing with these photos for the most part.  If the photos are intended for presentation on the web, a tablet, your phone, setting the camera up for sRGB is correct.  All this does is embeds metadata into the output to tell other software (web browsers, Lightroom, Photoshop, image viewers) how to correctly represent the colors for a digital output medium.  As an aside, most laptop displays these days can't even display 85% of the sRGB space and you will need to specifically shop for a high-end laptop to get up over 95%.

On the other hand, if the intended use for the photos will be mostly printing, choosing the AdobeRGB colorspace will set the output up for high-end printing.  You will not be able to see these colors accurately on a monitor while working with them on a computer unless you shell out for a high-end graphics monitor, such as the NEC PA241W.

RAW vs JPEG vs Both

Many Wedding and sporting event photographers choose JPEG for two reasons: the camera can capture them and write them to the memory card at much higher rates than their comparatively larger RAW siblings, and when the shoot is done they are much faster to publish, as JPEGs do not require further processing or conversion to look good.  JPEG is also the right format for anyone who doesn't have the stamina or dedication it takes to process the RAW "negatives" to generate higher quality output.  JPEGS are a good choice for the casual family photographer.

The caveat with JPEG is that you must have your camera white balance set correctly at the time the shot is taken.  Over- or under-exposing is fairly permanent in a JPEG (although brightness can be corrected to a degree, but it messes with the colors).

RAW is what I use because I want full control over the entire end-to-end processing of my shots.  The settings for JPEG/output now only matter for how the photo is represented by the camera's display (and in thumbnails in some software). You can completely mess up the settings (Faithful vs. Neutral, overly sharp or too much color, etc.) and at the end of the day, it does not affect the RAW file.  RAW files are literally RAW because it is a record of all of the raw data the image sensor captured.  The camera settings used (like white balance) are also recorded, more as a courtesy, but these can all be changed later. RAW files must be further processed in a program such as Lightroom or Photoshop elements, on a computer that has a Canon RAW driver installed (which tells software how to read the RAW).  You can shoot with a Florescent  white balance on a sunny day and completely not worry about the mistake.  (Shooting JPEG, that's a ruined photo).  And you can change the colorspace from sRGB to AdobeRGB and back when working with RAW.  The RAW isn't what gets displayed on the monitor or in the print output, it's the processing of the RAW that matters.

A good reason to shoot RAW + JPEG (either consistently or periodically) is in this scenario:  you don't want to necessarily spend the time processing the RAW negatives and just want to use the JPEGs shot by the camera. The RAW is there as a backup in case the shot is priceless and you want to do something different than what your camera was setup for.

For example, say you set up your camera for sRGB, Auto white balance, Portrait mode. In general you're taking pictures of your family picnic and most of the shots are of people, so the Portrait mode warms up the skin tones and softens the shot a little.  The intended medium is Flickr, so sRGB is correct, otherwise web browsers will display the wrong colors to your fans.  Around sunset, you notice amazing light and contrast near a waterfall and you snap off a few shots.  But the Portrait mode wasn't a good choice for the images and you definitely want to get this one printed at a professional printing shop to put over the fireplace.  Now, you have the option to process the RAW file in Lightroom, set up the colors, change the colorspace to AdobeRGB and send it off to the printer.

Processing RAW for Display

After you're happy with your RAW processing, when you export, choose sRGB for photos that someone is reviewing on their computer or publishing on the web.  For example, maybe you're printing a quality photo album of your sister's wedding but before you blow through $400 in ink, you want her to choose from the digital portfolio.  If you send her photos exported in the AdobeRGB space, she'll think you hate her.  So, export the photos in sRGB.  When you've selected the photos for print, export with AdobeRGB, set up the printing profile and print away.

Displaying AdobeRGB accurately

This is the subject of entire books. In a nutshell, you'll need about $1500 to purchase a high-end monitor like the NEC PA210W (I mention this one again because it is well regarded and there aren't too many options out there), which runs about $1000, and a color-correction device like the Colormunki, used to profile both the monitor and print output.  The monitor must be calibrated for the light color of the intended viewing environment (eg. 4500K or whatever).  The printer's output must match colors on the display almost exactly.

Printing

Keep in mind sRGB will print just fine for most general applications. Printer drivers expect people to be shoveling sRGB JPEGs into the printer, so they optimize the colors by usually increasing saturation (which makes detail-oriented people like me freak out;  I photographed an asian friend whose skin hue was slightly in the orange spectrum. Their home printer made him look like he had a cheesy fake tan so I really had to dumb down the saturation in Lightroom to get the printer back to where it should have been).

High-end printing is just another matter altogether and takes weeks and months of dedication to learn. I'm still a novice in this particular area and it's a tough learning curve.

SUMMARY

I've provided a lot of detail here based on my experience and extensive reading on this stuff.  If you're showing your work online in any medium that generates light (screens), sRGB is what you want.  MOST people should be shooting in sRGB.  It should be noted that the AdobeRGB colorspace can always be converted down to sRGB for display purposes, so it's not the end of the world.

The serious hobbyist, semi-pro and professional photographers who are printing for color accuracy, galleries, magazines, or quality display in the home will want to shoot RAW and post-process. When exporting, choose AdobeRGB and let the professional printshop know that they are setup for this.

I hope this helps anyone looking to understand the colorspace setting of their Canon cameras better.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 01:58:44 AM by derek »

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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2013, 03:13:53 AM »
When I first got my 5D Mark III, I set it to Adobe RGB to get the larger colour palette, but noticed photos viewed on my display looked a little flat.  Changed it to sRGB and now find editing my photos easier to get the colours I want. 

Though I wonder if Abode RGB would look better on a 10+ bit per colour display?

AlanF

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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2013, 04:09:05 AM »
I'd like to thank everyone in this forum for such informative discussion and useful advice. Thank you Derek so much for that tutorial on RAW, jpegs, RGB and sRGB, which sums it all up.  I hope you become a regular contributor to the forums as I for one and I am sure many more learned so much. 
Alan
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 04:21:14 AM by AlanF »
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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2013, 04:09:05 AM »

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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2013, 07:19:04 AM »
I'd like to thank everyone in this forum for such informative discussion and useful advice. Thank you Derek so much for that tutorial on RAW, jpegs, RGB and sRGB, which sums it all up.  I hope you become a regular contributor to the forums as I for one and I am sure many more learned so much. 
Alan
+100. I pick up so much info from these forums. This thread in particular. I hadn't really thought much about colour space, then Derek wanders into the scene :)
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TrumpetPower!

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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2013, 10:11:17 AM »
I think the simplest answer is that, if you have to ask, you should use sRGB, but you should also take it upon yourself to learn why Adobe RGB has the potential to provide better results (but only if you do an awful lot of non-obvious stuff, because, if you don't, you'll get worse results).

Color Management is a very deep rabbit hole, indeed. Adobe RGB actually isn't a particularly good color space; it's just not as bad as sRGB while still being fairly ubiquitous and well-established. The best option for a general-purpose RGB color space these days is Beta RGB, but the big name raw developers don't support it.

Incidentally, the color management of the big name raw developers also sucks....

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Re: Adobe RGB or sRGB please?
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2013, 10:11:17 AM »