Gerald Undone completes exhaustive record time testing on the Canon EOS R5 and Canon EOS R6

[arbitrage]

I certainly don't discount the overheating in stills report here nor the one on FM. But I wish more details would be given to both of them. I had to press the guy on FM a lot just to try to get a straight story if the camera actually shut down and wouldn't allow stills shooting or if the battery had just died. Even then, his answer was confusing and I still don't understand if he was immediately able to replace the maybe dead? battery (which was super hot) and keep shooting or not? The report in this thread is also confusing if he was able to keep going right after or not? I'm also confused with the FM report of what icon he got? On this report it was the red, rounded-corner rectangle with the thermometer that we've seen on all the 8K overheating videos. But on the FM thread he mentions "a flame" so was that just a battery warning because the battery was getting so hot (which tends to point more towards a bad battery)??

What I find strange, and what leads me to believe that neither of these reports are going to be regular occurrences, is that even though we know that shooting stills can bring the camera to overheat warning and stop you from shooting 8K, 4K120 and 4KHQ, even then the camera can switch back to 4K or 1080 and shoot forever. So I just don't see how the camera would stop shooting stills even if stills shooting brought it to the heat level of shutting down 8K. We know just leaving the camera on and doing nothing can drop the 8K limit to zero, but people are still able to shoot stills and lower quality 4K etc. When the overheating icon comes on and the counter goes to zero, the camera puts up that black screen with message about shutting down. But as we've seen in Gerald's 3hr livestream, the camera doesn't lock you out of the menus. He was able to go over and enter the menus and switch down the video quality and continue on. And even though he didn't test it, I'm fairly certain he could have started shooting stills also at that point.

I'd be interested to hear from both the guy on this thread and Andrew at FM if they got that same black screen message and if they were still able to go into the menus? If they could still access the menus then could they not just keep firing some stills? All seems very odd to me and again I think must be an uncommon (possible defect in camera or battery) issue and shouldn't be a normal issue R5 owners are going to have to worry about.

 

[Nathan Phillips]

I love canon products, but this is an issue.

Scenario 1:
Conducted a wedding (video) and only had maybe 4 points throughout the day where I was fortunate enough to get a few minutes of 4K120 and 4K60. The weather was not hot at all either. Roughly 70-75 all day. I also shot probably 95% of the footage in 1080 24/60 throughout the day.

Scenario 2:
2 hour photoshoot with roughly 150 RAW photos shot and a max of 1 minute of 4k120 which was within the first 30 minutes of the shoot. Towards the end I was not able to get anymore 4K60 or 120. Camera was overheated from the shoot. The weather was also no more than 73F degrees.

This is an issue...

 

[TomR]

I love canon products, but this is an issue.

Scenario 1:
Conducted a wedding (video) and only had maybe 4 points throughout the day where I was fortunate enough to get a few minutes of 4K120 and 4K60. The weather was not hot at all either. Roughly 70-75 all day. I also shot probably 95% of the footage in 1080 24/60 throughout the day.

Scenario 2:
2 hour photoshoot with roughly 150 RAW photos shot and a max of 1 minute of 4k120 which was within the first 30 minutes of the shoot. Towards the end I was not able to get anymore 4K60 or 120. Camera was overheated from the shoot. The weather was also no more than 73F degrees.

This is an issue...

Some people on this forum will tell you your testing is not scientific and therefore invalid.

the people who actually do this for a living will stay away from this camera until these issues are fixed.

thank you for posting these real world scenarios.

 

[dtaylor]

What I find strange, and what leads me to believe that neither of these reports are going to be regular occurrences, is that even though we know that shooting stills can bring the camera to overheat warning and stop you from shooting 8K, 4K120 and 4KHQ, even then the camera can switch back to 4K or 1080 and shoot forever. So I just don't see how the camera would stop shooting stills even if stills shooting brought it to the heat level of shutting down 8K.

It all depends on how much heat is being generated shooting stills and how fast that heat can be shed to the environment. Those will vary with shooting rate and ambient temperature. To be clear: there may not be any problem with stills. The FM report may be a bad battery, the report here may be an off spec unit. I just think it's ridiculous that people hand wave the very possibility given what we know.

 

[PGSanta]

It all depends on how much heat is being generated shooting stills and how fast that heat can be shed to the environment. Those will vary with shooting rate and ambient temperature. To be clear: there may not be any problem with stills. The FM report may be a bad battery, the report here may be an off spec unit. I just think it's ridiculous that people hand wave the very possibility given what we know.

They wave them off because not all information is equal. The second someone gives more data than “I read on a forum that stills causes a shut down”, more credence should be given. Until then, rational people will continue to acknowledge the cameras real limitations and problems without constantly posting about how we all should accept what’s “possible”.

 

[Nathan Phillips]

Some people on this forum will tell you your testing is not scientific and therefore invalid.

the people who actually do this for a living will stay away from this camera until these issues are fixed.

thank you for posting these real world scenarios.

Absolutely and thank you for the response. I’m a bit of a camera junkie. This was a tough lesson to learn. My second body arrives today, but I still don’t think it will make a huge difference. Maybe for the private shoots that are no longer than a few hours, but for weddings (video) definitely an issue. And a lot of other jobs are very similar to the workflow of weddings. Record record record....

 

[PGSanta]

I love canon products, but this is an issue.

Scenario 1:
Conducted a wedding (video) and only had maybe 4 points throughout the day where I was fortunate enough to get a few minutes of 4K120 and 4K60. The weather was not hot at all either. Roughly 70-75 all day. I also shot probably 95% of the footage in 1080 24/60 throughout the day.

Scenario 2:
2 hour photoshoot with roughly 150 RAW photos shot and a max of 1 minute of 4k120 which was within the first 30 minutes of the shoot. Towards the end I was not able to get anymore 4K60 or 120. Camera was overheated from the shoot. The weather was also no more than 73F degrees.

This is an issue...

It is. Neither of these bodies is shaping up to be a good 50/50 camera.

 

[PGSanta]

Some people on this forum will tell you your testing is not scientific and therefore invalid.

the people who actually do this for a living will stay away from this camera until these issues are fixed.

thank you for posting these real world scenarios.

If the camera doesn’t work for your workflow, it doesn’t work for your workflow. Scientific method adhered to or not.

 

[Nathan Phillips]

It is. Neither of these bodies is shaping up to be a good 50/50 camera.

The photo side is amazing honestly. Video is the only concern. I did come across one issue though. Same issue the EOS R had when shooting with strobes. I had to be in mechanical shutter to avoid the white line at the bottom or top of the frame. I can’t remember if this is just how it is, or if it’s just a simple firmware fix on syncing the shutter to the strobe properly.

It is. Neither of these bodies is shaping up to be a good 50/50 camera.

 

[Nathan Phillips]

If the camera doesn’t work for your workflow, it doesn’t work for your workflow. Scientific method adhered to or not.

i don’t see it working for a lot of video related workflows. Have you shot with it?

 

[PGSanta]

i don’t see it working for a lot of video related workflows. Have you shot with it?

I have briefly, but I’m also not a wedding photographer, nor am I much of a hybrid shooter. I’m one of those 99.9% stills guys, and for my use, it’s a great body. In playing with the video settings, I can see how it simply might not meet the needs of someone that needs more flexibility.

 

[dtaylor]

They wave them off because not all information is equal. The second someone gives more data than “I read on a forum that stills causes a shut down”, more credence should be given.

NorskHest gave plenty of information in this thread. And he was responsive to questions, at least until people wanted to insult him to get him to be quite because God forbid he challenge a narrative.

 

[vjlex]

NorskHest gave plenty of information in this thread. And he was responsive to questions, at least until people wanted to insult him to get him to be quite because God forbid he challenge a narrative.

Yes, that's exactly what happened: people tried to get less information out of him.

I think most people genuinely interested in this camera can acknowledge that there may be some problems. But some people are more willing to jump to that conclusion based on incomplete or ambiguous reports. I don't think anyone is asking for less information or reporting, just more reporting of facts and not conjecture and hyperbole.

 

[chrisgibbs]

From Hugh Brownstone's YouTube Page reference he and Dan Watson's overheating A7Rlll's. Thought it may be of interest re the R5. Note the top comment about how he and Dan using an older, less efficient codec. *Then note the engineers reply.*

My take, for what its worth, the thermal shutdown limiter in the R5 (like the older Sony A7Rll) is probably set too conservatively, and the R5 is fighting with a relatively *inefficient* (from the processors perspective) Codec.

There's hope both issues can be resolved in firmware, just as Sony have done with some of their older 4K MILC's.



ree Blind Men and An Elephant Productions
Three Blind Men and An Elephant Productions
3 hours ago
NEW NOTE: "Guy With Camera" says he noticed that only Dan Watson and I shot using the older XAVC-S codec. Thoughts welcome, though forgive me if I no longer respond directly. I can't keep up!


REPLY



Thomas Breithaupt1 day ago (edited)
Hugh: I am an Electrical Engineer of 30+ years designing electronics for the automotive world which must maintain operation (NO shutdown) to 85C (185F) and without permanent damage over 100C (212F). The trunk of any car in Phoenix, Houston, or Florida (where I live) will easily exceed 140F for 6 months of the year. I contacted Dan and expressed my concerns with some test errors he made, his interpretations regarding heating/damaging of electronics in general, plus other variables reviewers continue to miss. It looks like you are trying to make some honest assessments here but there are a multitude of variables here that you (and others) are still missing. I don’t think Dan took my suggestions well so I will try you. As you noted, and I pointed out to Dan, internal heat generation (radiation) is outbound as well as thermal absorption (inbound). There are actually THREE thermal tests that must be made to determine if the camera is a net “source” or a “sink”; (1) standard room temp of 23C (73F), (2) outdoor/hi-temp under “sun-load”, but also CRITICAL is (3) which is simply outdoor/hi-temp in the shade! This shade reference is CRITICAL since this test will tell you if the thermal failure is absorption (inbound) vs. radiation (outbound) induced. You MUST do this third test or you cannot make ANY conclusions on thermal propagation of the camera. No reviewer is understanding this point since they are not Engineers. I get that but then they extrapolate conclusions which are simply wrong – some favoring Sony and Canon and some against both brands. Until you have a FLIR type camera showing thermal mapping of the body (AND the body/lens SYSTEM), you really don’t have any idea where the heat source/problem area is located. It is simply assumed to be worst on the back side since this is what Photographers look at all the time. It may be on the bottom or on the sides – no one knows until you look for it at least with some JK type thermocouples. There are also other possible heating variables at work here. Is the IBIS turned on? There are tiny servos running all the time, even at still, and this takes power for the processor and creates heat in the circuits and battery, small but real – they all accumulate. Next, I see all kinds of lenses used in tests. Do they have stabilization? Some do, some don’t, but this is another possible drain and thus heat. Next are the lenses plastic or metal cased? A metal lens might be a net sink wicking away heat from the body, but might be a source in the sun – no one knows. Until you know the primary heat propagation source and direction (there’s that shade test again!) you don’t know if the lens is helping or hurting. Now…black is not always a bad color for heat.. but …hold that thought (LOL) … black is better color if you know you are in a ‘sink’ condition where you want the device to radiate away heat but is usually bad if you are often in a sunny condition (the white lens story helps here). That is why heatsinks on the back of electronics out of sight are normally black. But, Dan placed his cameras on a black trampoline which was TERRIBLE since this type of surface was likely 15-20F hotter than ambient air temp due to UV absorption. Try setting a white and black T-shirt in the sun and you will see 20+ hotter on a black shirt. He set the cameras on mini-tripods but STILL sat them on top of a black surface maybe 6 inches above a black, heat generating (black) “baking” surface – WRONG! As for damaging levels of heat, virtually any IC made today can handle a case junction temperature over 100-125C. As you move away from the chip things cool off but in general, as long as they hold below 85C, ZERO permanent damage should occur! Until you get inside the camera case with some thermocouple probes, no one really knows if damage is happening. I doubt anything is happening to the electronics but MUCH more likely to tiny, PLASTIC parts that use ABS plastics with limited nylon injection which tend to warp over time above 85C if under strain. Also, the sensitive lubrication oils probably start to break down if the internal camera case temps push much past about 60C. And finally, humidity has NO influence on thermal heating, inbound or outbound for electronics. People assume this since human bodies are sense increased discomfort from at high Dew Points – ‘humidity’ is simply a mathematically derived term. In summary, until a DETAILED Engineer-grade, comparative test addressing sun loads, shade loads, lens variables, and operating variables, the array of tests I have seen so far mean very little, positive or negative for any brand.

 

[VictraBarca]

I love canon products, but this is an issue.

Scenario 1:
Conducted a wedding (video) and only had maybe 4 points throughout the day where I was fortunate enough to get a few minutes of 4K120 and 4K60. The weather was not hot at all either. Roughly 70-75 all day. I also shot probably 95% of the footage in 1080 24/60 throughout the day.

Scenario 2:
2 hour photoshoot with roughly 150 RAW photos shot and a max of 1 minute of 4k120 which was within the first 30 minutes of the shoot. Towards the end I was not able to get anymore 4K60 or 120. Camera was overheated from the shoot. The weather was also no more than 73F degrees.

This is an issue...

Thank you. Honestly thank you. I'm sick of this asinine defending. I don't know why stories like this keep getting buried beneath, "The camera won't be bricked for stills" or "If you need shoot an entire wedding in 4K or 8K then this isn't the camera for you." I don't shoot weddings, but this is similar to my use case. If this camera isn't for someone like you then who is it for? To people cheering it as a stills camera, it isn't. The R6 does all of the stills that the R5 does. $1500 gets you the high end video and MP count. You can't ignore the video. The 5D series stands for something and means something. Stop brushing aside the issues. Yes, Canon gave limits. BUT if shooting stills eats into record time like this that is the problem. Nobody is talking about your 8K strawman argument.

 

[BeenThere]

Thank you. Honestly thank you. I'm sick of this asinine defending. I don't know why stories like this keep getting buried beneath, "The camera won't be bricked for stills" or "If you need shoot an entire wedding in 4K or 8K then this isn't the camera for you." I don't shoot weddings, but this is similar to my use case. If this camera isn't for someone like you then who is it for? To people cheering it as a stills camera, it isn't. The R6 does all of the stills that the R5 does. $1500 gets you the high end video and MP count. You can't ignore the video. The 5D series stands for something and means something. Stop brushing aside the issues. Yes, Canon gave limits. BUT if shooting stills eats into record time like this that is the problem. Nobody is talking about your 8K strawman argument.

i see you found an outlet for your moral outrage.

 

[VictraBarca]

i see you found an outlet for your moral outrage.

What is moral about it? I don't get your comment.

 

[Nathan Phillips]

Thank you. Honestly thank you. I'm sick of this asinine defending. I don't know why stories like this keep getting buried beneath, "The camera won't be bricked for stills" or "If you need shoot an entire wedding in 4K or 8K then this isn't the camera for you." I don't shoot weddings, but this is similar to my use case. If this camera isn't for someone like you then who is it for? To people cheering it as a stills camera, it isn't. The R6 does all of the stills that the R5 does. $1500 gets you the high end video and MP count. You can't ignore the video. The 5D series stands for something and means something. Stop brushing aside the issues. Yes, Canon gave limits. BUT if shooting stills eats into record time like this that is the problem. Nobody is talking about your 8K strawman argument.

Absolutely it’s hard to accurately test this camera or less you’re doing a real world project. Unfortunately that’s dangerous, but then again you can always resort to 1080/60 and 24. I did a test with my 1DX II and a 24-70 f/2.8 II at 4K/60 and my EOS R with my RF 28-70 f/2 at 1080/60... the 1080 was better.

I did a few more tests myself along with what Gerald Undone did with the Atomos on the R5. I was fortunate enough to get the same results via the atomos. Thank god...

Using the Atomos at 4K60 seemed to go a significant amount longer externally only. I was able to get over an hour of continuous recording. I actually just turned it off myself due to the 1TB SSD filling up first. My heat timer in the camera went down very very slowly, although it was still hot, but not as hot recording internally. R5 was at a big fat red zero on the heat indicator for over 10 minutes while the atomos was recording strong still. So there is a work around for weddings videographers. Especially since I won’t be shooting all day in 4K60.

My average shooting for a wedding is:
4K24 - 70% (Hoping for HQ mode)
4K60 - 20%
4K120 - 8%
8K24 - 2%

I have two bodies, so this should be possible now.

 

[Chris.Chapterten]

Absolutely it’s hard to accurately test this camera or less you’re doing a real world project. Unfortunately that’s dangerous, but then again you can always resort to 1080/60 and 24. I did a test with my 1DX II and a 24-70 f/2.8 II at 4K/60 and my EOS R with my RF 28-70 f/2 at 1080/60... the 1080 was better.

I did a few more tests myself along with what Gerald Undone did with the Atomos on the R5. I was fortunate enough to get the same results via the atomos. Thank god...

Using the Atomos at 4K60 seemed to go a significant amount longer externally only. I was able to get over an hour of continuous recording. I actually just turned it off myself due to the 1TB SSD filling up first. My heat timer in the camera went down very very slowly, although it was still hot, but not as hot recording internally. R5 was at a big fat red zero on the heat indicator for over 10 minutes while the atomos was recording strong still. So there is a work around for weddings videographers. Especially since I won’t be shooting all day in 4K60.

My average shooting for a wedding is:
4K24 - 70% (Hoping for HQ mode)
4K60 - 20%
4K120 - 8%
8K24 - 2%

I have two bodies, so this should be possible now.

Glad to hear it should hopefully work out for you!

 

[SecureGSM]

The photo side is amazing honestly. Video is the only concern. I did come across one issue though. Same issue the EOS R had when shooting with strobes. I had to be in mechanical shutter to avoid the white line at the bottom or top of the frame. I can’t remember if this is just how it is, or if it’s just a simple firmware fix on syncing the shutter to the strobe properly.

yup, that is normal. as described in the R5 user manual. electronic shutter is not suitable for flash photography.