Is it worth *really* studying photography?

[scottsdaleriots]

I mean, like paying thousands and thousands of $$$$ for school fees and spending 2-3 years (or more in a classroom and studio-like environment) studying photography. The price of canon lenses are expensive - referring to L lenses and newer pro bodies aren't cheap (had to add something about canon so hoping this thread won;t get deleted/moved).

Reason I ask is coz today was my first day of my course (this entire week is orientation with a few intro-class type sessions). I kinda actually didn't want to be there, it's more so about studio [wedding and portrait, some food] photography IMO. I have two 8am classes and one starts at 8.30am (it takes me 2hrs to get to my school each way). I also have two 12 hr days, including the hrs it'll take for me to get home.

I've tried countless of times to apply to work in a photography studio just to get a feel of what it's like (even tried volunteering to no avail) BEFORE i decide that i want to spend yrs studying photography. But everyone wants that darn piece of paper! I know I've probably answered my own question, it's just why is it difficult to get your foot in the door of the photography industry without a 'certified qualification' and not having to have gone and studied it at school. I want to work from home and people (photographers/teachers) have said that all you need is a camera, lens and a business card. It sounds so simple yet it isn't, least not for me. No one wants their photo taken.

I figure (in my logic) that there's really no point spending thousands of $$$$ and yrs of your life going to uni to studying photography when you can learn a lot off stuff from the internet? In other words I hate my timetable and I don't understand fully why it's so hard to change your status as an 'amatuer' "I'll take photos for free for the experience/minimal $$" photographer to a professional photographer or the very least a semi-pro/enthusiast where people will pay you reasonable $$$ to take their photos. Rant over

 

[TexPhoto]

No. Those schools are largely baby sitting services. Unless mom and dad are paying, no its not worth it.

But here's the thing. Photogrphy like any form of art has 100 people working at Dennny's to pay for their equipment and expenses, than it does making a good living from it. I'm not counting the people at Sears portrait studio as photographers. And if you can't sit through a few classes, are you sure you can stick with it?

 

[D_Rochat]

There's always two sides to this one. Ultimately it's something you need to figure out, but here's my view on it.

Lots can be learned from the Internet and its an incredible source of information. I just don't believe it replaces the benefits of a formal education. Having an experienced teacher to help and guide you while working with you isn't something you'll get online. There are amazing self taught photographers out there, but in my opinion, school is a better option for most. If you can apprentice for someone, that works too. You just have to figure out what's best for you. To look at it another way, one can become a great mechanic by looking up info on the Internet and practicing, but I still want a guy with schooling to work on my vehicle. It gives me that reassuring warm and fuzzy feeling when I'm spending my money.

Just my opinion....

 

[forgetmenot]

The classes will only get you to a certain point. beyond that you need talent, creativity, business sense... the last one is what most people ignore..

i've started a wedding video business last year and its doing well.. ( although i'm still keeping my full time job ) i learned everything about video on the internet.. prior to that i only know a little bit .

1 invest ( time - learning , equipment - not too fancy, but get what you need to get job done )
2 do 1-3 extremely cheap wedding to build up your portfolio. ( my first wedding job was a freebies to the couple ) next three wedding were a really cheap wedding, still to build up portfolio.
3. once you have enough portfolio your status will change from amateur to semi pro or pro where people are confident by looking at your portfolio then you can upgrade your pricing.
4 have a good: attitude, quality portfolio, do lots of marketing.

i have a lot of tips.. but the main thing is treat it as a business , so you can expand..
www.forgetmenotwedding.com

 

[vuilang]

has anyone ask the protoghapher: Do you have "qualification certificate"?
I only heard: "Can I see your Works?"

 

[D_Rochat]

has anyone ask the protoghapher: Do you have "qualification certificate"?
I only heard: "Can I see your Works?"

For a self employed photographer, no. But if you are looking at getting hired on with a magazine, newspaper or what have you, I'm sure they'd want to see some sort of education background. It boils down to where you want to go with photography.

Edit- to add another point, there's a very good school in my area that teaches all forms of photography with business foundations. If you were to break all the phases down into workshops, it would cost double. Most working photographers are always going to workshops to expand on their knowledge. Learning is just part of the game. Saying education is pointless is just silly.

 

[thatguyyoulove]

I would definitely say no, as long as you have the drive to actually learn the ins and outs of everything. That being said, a teacher does have its merits. Honestly I think you will receive better education and more applicable knowledge by apprenticing under a professional photographer if you desire a teacher. Plus you gain some cash while you do it rather than spend it on a school. As was mentioned earlier unless you know you are going into a field that requires a certificate it probably isn't needed or asked for. Even then if you have a strong portfolio I doubt many people will turn you down just because you don't have a piece of paper.

 

[D_Rochat]

I would definitely say no, as long as you have the drive to actually learn the ins and outs of everything. That being said, a teacher does have its merits. Honestly I think you will receive better education and more applicable knowledge by apprenticing under a professional photographer if you desire a teacher. Plus you gain some cash while you do it rather than spend it on a school. As was mentioned earlier unless you know you are going into a field that requires a certificate it probably isn't needed or asked for. Even then if you have a strong portfolio I doubt many people will turn you down just because you don't have a piece of paper.

All very true.

Keep in mind that if you are applying for a staff photographer position somewhere, you will not be the only person hunting for that job. Having only a strong portfolio may put you behind someone with an equally strong portfolio and a piece of paper. It helps to have the edge over the competition.

Back to the OP, what are your goals in photography? Do you plan on working for yourself or want a staff position somewhere?

 

[traumahawk]

Going off at a slight tangent, what about these various 'professional bodies' where you pay an annual fee and you can get mentors and submit work to qualify for 'professional status' of sorts. I'm thing of the SWWP, BIPP and other 'pro' bodies, any thoughts on these?

Ashley

 

[NotABunny]

Some people may be able to skip school, but for sure nobody can skip practice. If you want to photograph people then (lots of) either workshops or photo classes where one can practice with various models in diverse environments, are a must.

To look at it another way, one can become a great mechanic by looking up info on the Internet and practicing, but I still want a guy with schooling to work on my vehicle. It gives me that reassuring warm and fuzzy feeling when I'm spending my money.

Unlike in any other field of work, a photographer is (normally) chosen (by clients) based on the photos shown.

 

[scottsdaleriots]

Going off at a slight tangent, what about these various 'professional bodies' where you pay an annual fee and you can get mentors and submit work to qualify for 'professional status' of sorts. I'm thing of the SWWP, BIPP and other 'pro' bodies, any thoughts on these?

Ashley

That's the first time I have heard of these 'professional bodies'. Are they only based in the US? Or do they also operate online.

I would definitely say no, as long as you have the drive to actually learn the ins and outs of everything. That being said, a teacher does have its merits. Honestly I think you will receive better education and more applicable knowledge by apprenticing under a professional photographer if you desire a teacher. Plus you gain some cash while you do it rather than spend it on a school. As was mentioned earlier unless you know you are going into a field that requires a certificate it probably isn't needed or asked for. Even then if you have a strong portfolio I doubt many people will turn you down just because you don't have a piece of paper.

All very true.

Keep in mind that if you are applying for a staff photographer position somewhere, you will not be the only person hunting for that job. Having only a strong portfolio may put you behind someone with an equally strong portfolio and a piece of paper. It helps to have the edge over the competition.

Back to the OP, what are your goals in photography? Do you plan on working for yourself or want a staff position somewhere?

This will be embarrassing, ok well in a nutshell I've been working up the past 2 yrs to build up a portfolio (taking photos, whatnot) and paid thousands of $$$$ for short courses to help gain more knowledge/experience but bthat's the thing these courses only lasted 6hrs or a total of 24hrs (3hrs a week for 8 weeks, etc, depending on the course). I've always like all types of photography (B+W, landscape/cityscape, poritrature/weddings, etc. But especially fond of live music/street). However this is the embarrassing part, I want tobe a cinematographer. COMPLETELY wrong industry I know, yet I didn't actually know (yeah I'm naive and ignorant) butI thought cinematography was in the same tier/area as photography.

Anyways, I would like to do music (live concerts) and would love to work for a magazine - but that obviously requires a qualification and certificate. Which annoys me, it's like saying a self-taught photographer can't and will never be 'good enough' and better qualified than a person who went to school and studied photography.

I'm having doubts, I hate the timetable there are 3hr lectures (one is about the history of photography. I mean, no disrespect, but couldn't I learn that from the internet in like a few hours??) at night which dont end til 9pm. I wont get home til 11pm the earliest. Then there are these HUGE gaps between classes (4-5hr gaps). I thought this was the right course for me - but it's a catch 22, I can't get hired by a photography agency without a certificate, I tried walking in there with a folio, it didn't work for me, so that's why I wanted to do this course so I could get a certificate and get hired.

 

[Mikedurg]

Just like anything in life you get back what you put in. Focus on getting all you can from your courses that you've already paid for, then maybe try and work out a better schedule. That's a pretty rough day!

 

[vuilang]

has anyone ask the protoghapher: Do you have "qualification certificate"?
I only heard: "Can I see your Works?"

For a self employed photographer, no. But if you are looking at getting hired on with a magazine, newspaper or what have you, I'm sure they'd want to see some sort of education background. It boils down to where you want to go with photography.

Edit- to add another point, there's a very good school in my area that teaches all forms of photography with business foundations. If you were to break all the phases down into workshops, it would cost double. Most working photographers are always going to workshops to expand on their knowledge. Learning is just part of the game. Saying education is pointless is just silly.

I never imply education or workshop is silly. I completely agree when apply for newspaper, mags. You'll need some "paper" to back you up.. However, I think a strong porfolio is even better than the "qualified paper"

 

[ereka]

Going off at a slight tangent, what about these various 'professional bodies' where you pay an annual fee and you can get mentors and submit work to qualify for 'professional status' of sorts. I'm thing of the SWWP, BIPP and other 'pro' bodies, any thoughts on these?

Ashley

That's the first time I have heard of these 'professional bodies'. Are they only based in the US? Or do they also operate online.

SWPP = Society of Wedding & Portrait Photographers
BIPP = British Institute of Professional Photography

Both are UK based.

 

[leGreve]

I mean, like paying thousands and thousands of $$$$ for school fees and spending 2-3 years (or more in a classroom and studio-like environment) studying photography. The price of canon lenses are expensive - referring to L lenses and newer pro bodies aren't cheap (had to add something about canon so hoping this thread won;t get deleted/moved).

Reason I ask is coz today was my first day of my course (this entire week is orientation with a few intro-class type sessions). I kinda actually didn't want to be there, it's more so about studio [wedding and portrait, some food] photography IMO. I have two 8am classes and one starts at 8.30am (it takes me 2hrs to get to my school each way). I also have two 12 hr days, including the hrs it'll take for me to get home.

I've tried countless of times to apply to work in a photography studio just to get a feel of what it's like (even tried volunteering to no avail) BEFORE i decide that i want to spend yrs studying photography. But everyone wants that darn piece of paper! I know I've probably answered my own question, it's just why is it difficult to get your foot in the door of the photography industry without a 'certified qualification' and not having to have gone and studied it at school. I want to work from home and people (photographers/teachers) have said that all you need is a camera, lens and a business card. It sounds so simple yet it isn't, least not for me. No one wants their photo taken.

I figure (in my logic) that there's really no point spending thousands of $$$$ and yrs of your life going to uni to studying photography when you can learn a lot off stuff from the internet? In other words I hate my timetable and I don't understand fully why it's so hard to change your status as an 'amatuer' "I'll take photos for free for the experience/minimal $$" photographer to a professional photographer or the very least a semi-pro/enthusiast where people will pay you reasonable $$$ to take their photos. Rant over

Depends where you live... In Denmark we get paid for studying photography (except ofcourse if you want to join the arty farty geeks you get to pay 6.000 dollars for one season....).

The Danish version uses a mixture of apprenticeship and school. You obtain the apprenticeship at an established master photographer (I was at www.skovdal.dk for 3 years where I learned technical photography and then 1 year at www.mortenlaursen.com) which honed my photoshop skills, and then every 6 months you get called back to school to sort of check up where you are at technically.
My first 6 months I spent learning all about exposure, types of lamps and reflectors and cameras. The next school periodes were more of a theme which have to solve over the course of 4-6 weeks and then get critiqued by our class mates.

The good thing about this way is you get the best of both worlds. From day one I'm in contact with clients doing "real" jobs every day every hour. You build the network straight away.
While in school you get in touch with different areas because not one master photographer or colleague is the same or have the same view on a specific thing.

If you were to learn on your own, I challenge you... you'd learn far slower and have a much narrower experience than through apprenticeship. I know how to operate pretty much all the cameras I could come across for specific jobs. I can set a Sinar without checking the matte plate now... took me a few years to get into the zone but it's pretty useful when standing ready with a large setup which includes food and what not.
This is entirely due to the vigorous exercises we were put through during school.

Now... I know America is another world, but maybe sometimes it would be interesting to get out and take another approach? Did I mention you get paid while you're in school as well?
The starting wage is roughly 1800 dollars a month and slowly raises as you progress in your studies (union settlements).

School: www.medieskolerne.dk
Guy to talk to: Gunnar Byskov

Seriously.... Why pay for learning?

Edit: handed in a few min ago, shot on Sinar with Phase One back and a 150mm. Daylight and 1 lamp. No exposure correction and lighting except for standard dehazing and sharpning. Added a little saturation:

 

[scottsdaleriots]

Depends where you live... In Denmark we get paid for studying photography (except ofcourse if you want to join the arty farty geeks you get to pay 6.000 dollars for one season....).

The Danish version uses a mixture of apprenticeship and school. You obtain the apprenticeship at an established master photographer (I was at www.skovdal.dk for 3 years where I learned technical photography and then 1 year at www.mortenlaursen.com) which honed my photoshop skills, and then every 6 months you get called back to school to sort of check up where you are at technically.
My first 6 months I spent learning all about exposure, types of lamps and reflectors and cameras. The next school periodes were more of a theme which have to solve over the course of 4-6 weeks and then get critiqued by our class mates.

The good thing about this way is you get the best of both worlds. From day one I'm in contact with clients doing "real" jobs every day every hour. You build the network straight away.
While in school you get in touch with different areas because not one master photographer or colleague is the same or have the same view on a specific thing.

If you were to learn on your own, I challenge you... you'd learn far slower and have a much narrower experience than through apprenticeship. I know how to operate pretty much all the cameras I could come across for specific jobs. I can set a Sinar without checking the matte plate now... took me a few years to get into the zone but it's pretty useful when standing ready with a large setup which includes food and what not.
This is entirely due to the vigorous exercises we were put through during school.

Now... I know America is another world, but maybe sometimes it would be interesting to get out and take another approach? Did I mention you get paid while you're in school as well?
The starting wage is roughly 1800 dollars a month and slowly raises as you progress in your studies (union settlements).

School: www.medieskolerne.dk
Guy to talk to: Gunnar Byskov

Seriously.... Why pay for learning?

Edit: handed in a few min ago, shot on Sinar with Phase One back and a 150mm. Daylight and 1 lamp. No exposure correction and lighting except for standard dehazing and sharpning. Added a little saturation:

that sounds good, getting paid while you learn! unfortunately i live in australia and we dont do it that way nice photo.

Going off at a slight tangent, what about these various 'professional bodies' where you pay an annual fee and you can get mentors and submit work to qualify for 'professional status' of sorts. I'm thing of the SWWP, BIPP and other 'pro' bodies, any thoughts on these?

Ashley

That's the first time I have heard of these 'professional bodies'. Are they only based in the US? Or do they also operate online.

SWPP = Society of Wedding & Portrait Photographers
BIPP = British Institute of Professional Photography

Both are UK based.

Thanks, I'll check them out.

Just like anything in life you get back what you put in. Focus on getting all you can from your courses that you've already paid for, then maybe try and work out a better schedule. That's a pretty rough day!

I try to focus on what I've learnt in the short courses, but 3 of those courses were taught by the same old man - who is really old school and likes using film more than digital IMO. Those courses were: advanced photoshop, photojournalism, creative photography level 1 (which was pretty much basic intro of DSLR stuff), landscape photography, people and portrait photography and folio preparation (the latter 3 courses taught by the same old man and he repeated a LOT of things not to mention things overlapped, etc. Those were $650 each for 24hrs of classes devided. Rip off I think for that much money).

Really bad schedule, they said I can't change they said there's more people enrolled this year than previous years so now it's 4 groups instead of 3. It totally sucks, I gotta be at the train by at least 6.15am on wednesday morning to catch the train to make my 8am class (which goes for 6hrs, its a 'prac' class, dunno what we're doing though). Anyways my last class for that day ends at 8.30 but i think the teacher will keep talking and i prob won't get out til 9.45pm. won't get home til about 11.35pm, depends on the train and whether i gotta switch trains to get to the right train station. All in all it's stupid and I'm kinda looking into what other courses (even though it's too late since classes have started) that I can enroll in.

I forgot to mention the cost of this 1yr course. I thought it'd be about $10,000 (that's what they said last year). But I was wrong, they've increased it to over $11,200+. Cant remember exact cost but it over $11,200. That's ridiculous! I could buy the 1DX and the 5DIII (if canon decide ever to release it). It's not even the highest qualification. Cant remember what Im doing for class tomorrow, prob in the studio talking about OH&S for 4hrs but I remember I have a 3hr lecture at 6pm, which totally sucks.


that typo in the title is annoying me but I cant be bothered fixing it at the moment lol. obviously meant to be 'is it really *woth* studying...'

 

[hector_carbuccia]

Obviously you hate this profession, dude do something different, try Marketing o Advertising :S. If you are not enjoying learning photography that's why can't even get a job in any studio.

 

[Old Shooter]

When I look back at everything photography has been for me; I wouldn't have the same timeline if I hadn't "studied" it first... Took a Journalism class in my freshman year summer school and enjoyed taking pictures more than writing articles. The journalism teacher was also the photography teacher; he persuaded me to take photography as my freshman elective and also intern on the student paper as a staff photographer...

Taking a structured class, where there is a progressive approach to the mechanics and physics of photography, combined with weekly photo assignments meant to demonstrate/reinforce what you have learned, made all the difference to me...

Two years as the school paper photog got me onto the yearbook staff as a junior. That provided me access to a local pro photographer who did the senior portraits and was available as a resource to the yearbook staff. I thought I knew so much at that point; when I started working with him - I realized I knew almost nothing! But because I had the basics down he tolerated me... He knew he could send me into the darkroom and I could soup a roll of film, print a contact sheet, or emerge with a B&W enlargement that met his standards...

When I wasn't at school, I was at his studio. Learning about studio lighting for people and products. Then I got invited to lug cases of heavy equipment around while he shot weddings. Then I eventually got a camera shoved in my hands and became a second shooter. By the time I left high school, I was a reasonably competent photographer - both from a technical standpoint and a practical/business perspective... The only reason I didn't starve to death in college was the occasional grad student who got married on a budget and needed a "cheap" wedding shooter...

I went into police work and photography got me a gig as a forensic photographer/crime scene tech. I missed the "rush" of wedding photography and opened my own studio. Had a great 10 year run and moved off into other things. But I never regretted starting my relationship with a camera in the classroom. Not saying it would work for everyone; but I think it did OK for me...

I hope that whatever mechanism you embrace to learn the craft; it makes you happy and fulfilled...

 

[snyder17315]

This topic reminds me of countless people I've come across in my years as a professional musician. Lots of guys (and some gals) that just didn't get it... why did they have to really learn how to properly play their instruments? Why was it important to know the difference between an A Major chord and an A Minor? Who cares if you can play to a metronome? And then there's the group that only wants to play A-List clubs and shows, why should they have to spend time in the dirty, scummy, local dives?

The answer to all of those questions is paying your dues. Photography is an art form, and like all art forms (and pretty much everything in life in general), you work your way up from the bottom. There's a reason for it. It builds character, it builds knowledge and it builds experience. When you try to land a certain gig (musical or photography), you're expected to be competent for that level of work. There is no "on the job" training at that level, you're expected to have already learned the basics through hard work, perseverance, and experience.

Obviously I don't know the OP, but your posts lead me to believe you're quite young and a little naive about how the real world - and more importantly - how business works. It sounds like you want to skip all the hard work and go straight to the good stuff. Clearly you recognize that the industry requires a certain amount of personal effort and professional commitment, yet you continue to question what needs to be done while searching for ways to get around it.

Love it or leave it.

 

[liberace]

Depends where you live... In Denmark we get paid for studying photography (except ofcourse if you want to join the arty farty geeks you get to pay 6.000 dollars for one season....).

The Danish version uses a mixture of apprenticeship and school. You obtain the apprenticeship at an established master photographer (I was at www.skovdal.dk for 3 years where I learned technical photography and then 1 year at www.mortenlaursen.com) which honed my photoshop skills, and then every 6 months you get called back to school to sort of check up where you are at technically.
My first 6 months I spent learning all about exposure, types of lamps and reflectors and cameras. The next school periodes were more of a theme which have to solve over the course of 4-6 weeks and then get critiqued by our class mates.

The good thing about this way is you get the best of both worlds. From day one I'm in contact with clients doing "real" jobs every day every hour. You build the network straight away.
While in school you get in touch with different areas because not one master photographer or colleague is the same or have the same view on a specific thing.

If you were to learn on your own, I challenge you... you'd learn far slower and have a much narrower experience than through apprenticeship. I know how to operate pretty much all the cameras I could come across for specific jobs. I can set a Sinar without checking the matte plate now... took me a few years to get into the zone but it's pretty useful when standing ready with a large setup which includes food and what not.
This is entirely due to the vigorous exercises we were put through during school.

Now... I know America is another world, but maybe sometimes it would be interesting to get out and take another approach? Did I mention you get paid while you're in school as well?
The starting wage is roughly 1800 dollars a month and slowly raises as you progress in your studies (union settlements).

School: www.medieskolerne.dk
Guy to talk to: Gunnar Byskov

Seriously.... Why pay for learning?

Edit: handed in a few min ago, shot on Sinar with Phase One back and a 150mm. Daylight and 1 lamp. No exposure correction and lighting except for standard dehazing and sharpning. Added a little saturation:

that sounds good, getting paid while you learn! unfortunately i live in australia and we dont do it that way nice photo.

Going off at a slight tangent, what about these various 'professional bodies' where you pay an annual fee and you can get mentors and submit work to qualify for 'professional status' of sorts. I'm thing of the SWWP, BIPP and other 'pro' bodies, any thoughts on these?

Ashley

That's the first time I have heard of these 'professional bodies'. Are they only based in the US? Or do they also operate online.

SWPP = Society of Wedding & Portrait Photographers
BIPP = British Institute of Professional Photography

Both are UK based.

Thanks, I'll check them out.

Just like anything in life you get back what you put in. Focus on getting all you can from your courses that you've already paid for, then maybe try and work out a better schedule. That's a pretty rough day!

I try to focus on what I've learnt in the short courses, but 3 of those courses were taught by the same old man - who is really old school and likes using film more than digital IMO. Those courses were: advanced photoshop, photojournalism, creative photography level 1 (which was pretty much basic intro of DSLR stuff), landscape photography, people and portrait photography and folio preparation (the latter 3 courses taught by the same old man and he repeated a LOT of things not to mention things overlapped, etc. Those were $650 each for 24hrs of classes devided. Rip off I think for that much money).

Really bad schedule, they said I can't change they said there's more people enrolled this year than previous years so now it's 4 groups instead of 3. It totally sucks, I gotta be at the train by at least 6.15am on wednesday morning to catch the train to make my 8am class (which goes for 6hrs, its a 'prac' class, dunno what we're doing though). Anyways my last class for that day ends at 8.30 but i think the teacher will keep talking and i prob won't get out til 9.45pm. won't get home til about 11.35pm, depends on the train and whether i gotta switch trains to get to the right train station. All in all it's stupid and I'm kinda looking into what other courses (even though it's too late since classes have started) that I can enroll in.

I forgot to mention the cost of this 1yr course. I thought it'd be about $10,000 (that's what they said last year). But I was wrong, they've increased it to over $11,200+. Cant remember exact cost but it over $11,200. That's ridiculous! I could buy the 1DX and the 5DIII (if canon decide ever to release it). It's not even the highest qualification. Cant remember what Im doing for class tomorrow, prob in the studio talking about OH&S for 4hrs but I remember I have a 3hr lecture at 6pm, which totally sucks.


that typo in the title is annoying me but I cant be bothered fixing it at the moment lol. obviously meant to be 'is it really *woth* studying...'

Really sounds like your main problem is that you're not adjusting well to life after high school. I had the same troubles. I enjoyed what I was studying, but there was a disconnect for me between the effort required to succeed as an adult, and what I was willing to do.

Are you studying a HECS funded course, or are you at a private University?