1Ds Mark IV & 5D3 Thoughts & Lens Patent

[ConcreteSnowman]

if
1) 5D cannibalizes 1Ds sales, and
2) a traditional 1Ds is just too expensive to have good sales in these difficult economic times, and
3) the next 1D is going to be FF and probably merge with 1Ds,
then maybe Canon should just have 2 full frame cameras beyond the 7D-60D-550D subframe range, one budget FF and that's obviously the 5D, the other should be a sort of 3D that is considerably higher specc'ed than 5D but also considerably less costly than 1D/1Ds. APS-H should be delegated to 7DII, and 70D should restore the xxD line to its previous glory and maybe add more 7D features as it would then be the 1.6x flagship. So the lineup according to this should be something like: 3D (FF), 5DIII (FF), 7DII (1.3x), 70D (1.6x), 600D (1.6x), 1100D (1.6x).

nice idea. but if it comes to canon marketing, don't know what happens to that.

Agreed.. 7D II to be APS-H could end up a solid legacy for that model. A 70D to follow with a 1.6x crop and select 7D features could suffice for an extreme take on flagshipping both tiers. . the real question is, at the suggested price-point (eg. somewhere at least around $2k), could there be room for a lesser (than the next 1D) 1.3x body with the frontier heading towards modular and higher density sensors? Not to mention a FF 5D III only (presumably) $1000 away.
Assuming that the weather sealing, battery life, etc are manageable, what's to stop it from shooting better progressive video and higher FPS; especially with a new Digic V??
Also, that will allow Canon to charge more for the higher-spec.d 60D successor.. continually reeling in the Benjamins.

Any thoughts?

 

[Justin]

At this point it basically sucks to try to run and read a Canon rumors blog. Months upon months of conflicting rumors with no real news. Canon needs to get back in the game with some bodies and lenses. Not the ones already announced a half year ago, those don't count.

You look at the nikon and 43 rumors sites and there is alway interesting stuff going on there. Canon = meh. I don't blame Craig, but when there is nothing to report or the stuff that does get reported is constantly falling prey to contradictions you got to take note.

Hopefully something will come out soon that isn't a rebel.

 

[Master_of_the_Universe]

Big resolution could mean that Canon could ditch the low pass filter.

Big resolution combined with a fast processor could mean Canon could implement true pixel binning.
This means much, much better high ISO image quality but at lower resolution.
However if the sensor has big resolution to begin with, you can afford to ditch some resolution to get very clean high ISO.

sRAW formats are already in place except unfortunately without the pixel binning.
Maybe Canon can take the next step with the release of the 1Ds MK IV?

If they do, this could be really huge and could be the feature that keeps getting rumoured about.

 

[traveller]

At this point it basically sucks to try to run and read a Canon rumors blog. Months upon months of conflicting rumors with no real news. Canon needs to get back in the game with some bodies and lenses. Not the ones already announced a half year ago, those don't count.

You look at the nikon and 43 rumors sites and there is alway interesting stuff going on there. Canon = meh. I don't blame Craig, but when there is nothing to report or the stuff that does get reported is constantly falling prey to contradictions you got to take note.

Hopefully something will come out soon that isn't a rebel.

Yeah, Nikon Rumors is just full of non-contradictions...

"Broxibear
Posted January 21, 2011 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

One day they’re talking about releasing a “PRO” level mirrorless camera, then it’s “not targeted towards people who use cameras in their work, some will look at this product as a really fun to use camera.”
Are they just making it up as they go along ?

Read more on NikonRumors.com: http://nikonrumors.com/2011/01/21/flashback-nikon-mirrorless-camera-will-be-something-that-nobody-is-currently-making.aspx#ixzz1BiI3tiaL"

 

[x-vision]

At this point it basically sucks to try to run and read a Canon rumors blog. Months upon months of conflicting rumors with no real news.

Agree completely.

Canon has obviously imposed a very tight embargo on any info about the upcoming generation of models.

Long before the 7D announcement in 2009 there were rumors here that Canon is rethinking the xxD series.

There are no such rumors regarding the next xD bodies this time around - all we have are educated guesses.

Nobody saw the D3 and D300 coming in 2007. The 1DV and 5DIII rumor situation seems similar now .

My educated guess about what's coming soon is the same as this CR post.

 

[Osiris30]

As Canon/Nikon head to 40+ megapixels, it becomes an interesting question as to who needs those resolutions. A lot of photogs will need to upgrade their computers and storage in order to support a workflow on image files of 40-50Mbytes from such a camera.

Given that 20"x30" (or possibly slightly larger) prints are entirely viable off a 5DmkII/1DsIII, it would seem that a 40Mp camera is hunting more in medium format territory. That would seem to suggest that a 40Mp 1Ds4 would squeeze Hasselblad/Phase One and friends into an even smaller niche. - You would literally only need a medium format body for large billboard work, or where a leaf shutter is essential (HSS TTL flash has already narrowed that niche). For most enthusiasts, 18MP is already overkill.
What I suspect photogs will be demanding, more and more, is for the manufacturers to focus on high ISO/low light performance, rather than adding more pixels. - This has, of course, been said time and time again already.
My view is that there will remain to be a market for crop frame sensors since they reduce the cost and weight of glass that sports and wildlife photogs need to carry around with them. There would probably be a lot of unhappy sports shooters if Canon discontinued the APS-H format.
Wedding/event photographers would probably settle on a 5DmkII at 28MP, while a 40MP+ 1DsIV would probably mainly be interesting to fashion/advertising types who haven't already abandoned their medium format gear.

What everyone is missing in bemoaning high MP cameras is; image processing routines work much better (including NR) when they have more data to work with. Go take a 1MP shot, and then take a similar framed 18MP shot and look at how much nr you can do before it degrades to the level of detail in the 1MP shot. While that's an extreme example it's a good one for demonstration purposes.

Similarly 40mp with a 4 to 1 bin, is a barely usable (for commercial purposes) 10mp. Imagine a camera that lets you choose between detail king and high iso monster. To get there on a Bayer body you have a 4/1 ratio needed though, so until you get 28mp+ it's not practical.

 

[jsb]

This is what I want:

backlit sensor
no lowpass filter
large pixel count
Full frame--I want an ultra wide zoom
can store up to 12 user defined pictures styles
2-3 user defined white balance
better AWB than 7D
plastic body--lighter for traveling
below 1,000 usd
no built-in flash
cheaper battery--like nb7l
dual card slots--takes sd card
more f/2.8 focus points esp. at far sides
cleaner picture than 5d mark2
better dynamic range than 5d mark2
better or similar color than 7D
can use 580EX II's built-in external sensor
ISO 50 OR ISO 25 extendable
3:3:3 demosaic
same software structure as 1d mark4

 

[Gcon]

All I want in a 5DIII is the same as 5DII but with pro-level weather sealing and better AF.

I'm an outdoor photography enthusiast and thus like the small body size of 5DII, but need weather sealing as a couple of people I know, and very many I don't have their 5DII cameras die due to rain, and even just humidity. People like me get the 5DII because Canon only make two FF cameras, and the 5DII is more compact, and by far the cheaper priced (you can buy two 5DII's to one 1DsIII and have money to spare !!)

The AF is poor and I find that lacking when tracking animals and in low light.

Keep it at a reasonable price and I'll buy two, to replace my two 5DII bodies. The main reason I have two 5DII bodies is I'm paranoid of one dying due to the aforementioned reasons, but I'm now used to having two bodies so will stick with that. I don't really care for higher MP or frame rates, but will take them as a bonus.

Listen to me Canon - the 5D range brief is for a compact full frame body. It *needs* weather sealing and better AF. Keep the frame rates low and you won't monopolize the 1D/s range but you'll keep punters like me happy and stop me going to Nikon!

 

[Canon 14-24]

All I want in a 5DIII is the same as 5DII but with pro-level weather sealing and better AF.

Listen to me Canon - the 5D range brief is for a compact full frame body. It *needs* weather sealing and better AF. Keep the frame rates low and you won't monopolize the 1D/s range but you'll keep punters like me happy and stop me going to Nikon!

That's all the 1Ds mainly has going for it, how would that not monopolize those sales (1-2 fps difference ain't going to be the deal breaker)? I've taken my 5D2 in rain and snow and it still has worked fine. Since you use a 2 body set up, a 5D2 and 7D would be the ideal situation to get that AF and reach you need for wildlife.

 

[tzalmagor]

Big resolution could mean that Canon could ditch the low pass filter.

Big resolution combined with a fast processor could mean Canon could implement true pixel binning.

I takes 3 integer additions to bin 4 pixels into 1, and those are short (max 16 bits in raw, 8 bits in JPEG) integers, and it saves significant amount of work in later stages of processing, e.g. JPEG compression. A processor which can compress full HD video in real time is fast enough to bin the photos.

 

[Gcon]

All I want in a 5DIII is the same as 5DII but with pro-level weather sealing and better AF.

Listen to me Canon - the 5D range brief is for a compact full frame body. It *needs* weather sealing and better AF. Keep the frame rates low and you won't monopolize the 1D/s range but you'll keep punters like me happy and stop me going to Nikon!

That's all the 1Ds mainly has going for it, how would that not monopolize those sales (1-2 fps difference ain't going to be the deal breaker)? I've taken my 5D2 in rain and snow and it still has worked fine. Since you use a 2 body set up, a 5D2 and 7D would be the ideal situation to get that AF and reach you need for wildlife.

Compared to 1DmkIV or 1DmkV - sports shooters will want the 'pro' level AF and some other pro features, and sports shooters will scoff at the FPS of a 5DII or 5DIII.

Compared to 1Ds mkIV - now that's where Canon is worried. Still, I think Canon will work in much high MP into this, as well as full pro AF, and pros will want the built in portrait grip. I think the 5DIII will go up a fair bit in price and they'll sell the 5DII for a while yet, so this won't monopolise the 1Ds mk IV sales.

 

[Flake]

"If you're a pro going to shoot in Iraq, you'll choose the 1Ds. Period."

I disagree! Anyone shooting war footage wants video which the 1Ds doesn't have, plus it's too slow and the files are too big. Anyone using Canon in Iraq will want the 1D MkIV which is much more news friendly.

I find it hard to foresee a 42MP sensor from Nikon. At the present state of development Nikon can only manage a 12MP sensor, the 24MP Sony unit places severe demands on the under developed Expeed Image processor making the D3s one of the slowest cameras on the market at just 1.3fps. Upping the sensor to 42MP would make the camera unuseable without massive data handling improvements.

As for Canon I do wonder about the economic sense of developing and producing two different FF sensors, while it might make economic sense for the 5D series, sales of the 1Ds surely are insufficient to make a special ultra complex sensor viable.

A jump to 42MP would be a doubling of density and needs at least twice the processing to even stand still in fps I doubt Digic V will be that powerful.

I don't foresee the problems with lenses other have, but it wont make the problems with lenses like the 17 - 40 f/4 L any better as wide open at 17mm it has no measureable resolution at the corners now! Higher resolutions just make problems more noticeable.

 

[hilmimurat]

I've been waiting more than a year for 1DS mark IV. Something must be gone wrong with new design. Canon plays the game lack of an important player in Pro DSLR segment and loosing the match.

They have to discard that hot pixel problem first. In my opinion 21 mp. is the limit of 35 mm. format, more pixels will be interpolated resolution and waste of disk space in my opinion. I wish new 1DS will not include a movie option and focuses on photo quality...

 

[Flake]

Surely Canon must be looking at the 1D MkIV and the 7D and wondering why sales of the 1D haven't been affected when they have with the 1Ds & the 5D MkII. Surely price must be a factor, is the 1Ds really worth £4500 When the only really difference is the sensor thats over £1000 premium over the 1D and the price of that hasn't really come down since its launch, in the days of the MkIII it was £2000 dearer.

The 7D doesn't seem quite as well built as the 5D MkII which could play a part, and I wonder if Canon will downgrade the MkIII to 7D standards to create a wider gap.

I think though that the biggest problem here is the different uses the cameras have, the 1D is a real action tool, sports, journalism, commercial photography, where it needs to be able to handle all that hard work can throw at it, wheras the 1Ds is better for studio & product work where life is much more comfortable, and it's build isn't quite so important, you could go through 3 5D MkII's for the price of one 1Ds

Canon has a choice, it either cheapens the 5D MkIII which might not be popular especially if Nikons D800 has a decent sensor, or it uprates it and drops the 1Ds line. Of course if could carry on as it does now with the 1Ds as an expensive niche product.

 

[macfly]

Well, for those who thought 40mp is too much, I just got the announcement that MF has just moved up to 80mp. http://www.phaseone.com/Phase%20One/Digital-Backs/IQ180/IQ180-Info.aspx

 

[GMCPhotographics]

The 5D range was always intended to be a 1Ds grade full frame sensor placed in a pro-sumer body, with 3-4fps. Generally, it's supposed to be launched a year after the 1Ds version, using a simular density sensor.

Has Canon stated this, or are you generalizing based on n=2?

Yes, the 5DII and 50D white paper page 6. A simular coment was also made in the 5D white paper too.
http://www.usa.canon.com/uploadedimages/FCK/Image/White%20Papers/EOS%2050D%20and%205D%20Mark%20II%20WP2.pdf