Dynamic Range Canon 100D / SL1

[PhotoGuy]

Hey guys,

long time lurker, first time poster here.
I have a specific question that I am sure you guys can help me with:
I am thinking about switching from a 70D(loser AF that Canon is unable to repair) to a 100D (Love the 9 Point AF, super reliable). My photography is very DR dependent (plz dont start the hate on that topic) and before buying I'd like to see whats what with the 100D in the workflow I am using. I have had the possibility to test a 600D which doesn't respond well to pushing the shadows (banding). The 70D is quite good in this regard (love that sensor!) and I think the 100D might be similar (judging by the high iso noise samples from online reviews). However I was not able to find any raw samples online that had deep shadows, what little i found did look promising though.

TL,DR:
I need a Raw sample from a EOS 100D/SL1 of a high contrast, preferably backlit (black shadows) scene shot at ISO 100 to see how the 100D handles noise after pushing shadows. Subject doesn't matter, can be anything.

Thank you very much!
(EOS 700D/T5i would also be interesting to see)

A few examples of what my work looks like:
600D struggling with banding (tree on the right), strong NR applied:

70D, great sensor:

Perfect DR (Fuji E1):

 

[verysimplejason]

You might be better off with a full frame or switching to SONIKON. For Canon crop, 7d2 might give you a little bit of latitude but I won't bet on it. 6D is the best you can get from Canon for your intents and purposes. You can also try multi-shot HDR if you really want to recover that much from the shadow since your examples are mostly not moving.

 

[ajfotofilmagem]

First of all: You've done AFMA adjustment in their 70D?

If you need a camera to shoot at ISO100 and then push the shadows, Rebel Sl1 is not for you. SL1 is a good camera in its class, but for the use you describe, the new Canon 20 megapixel APS-C sensors are much better.

Have not seen controlled tests to push the shadows with the new cameras Canon APS-C 24-megapixel, but I suppose they have similar result (in this respect) the 70D and 7D Mark II.

I agree that the multi shot HDR seems the best solution for your shots.

 

[photonius]

You might be better off with a full frame or switching to SONIKON. For Canon crop, 7d2 might give you a little bit of latitude but I won't bet on it. 6D is the best you can get from Canon for your intents and purposes. You can also try multi-shot HDR if you really want to recover that much from the shadow since your examples are mostly not moving.

not sure if all SONIKON is better, here is an example of D810 pushed at night with the HDR mode.
Seems you can visualize the printed circuit board, seens totally odd though.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3837750?post=55726807&image=0

 

[Tinky]

My tuppence.

For these kind of shots you've shown you don't really need great AF, or to be honest, any AF at all. These are well composed longer exposure shots. You have time to use live view with MF on your 70D.

Okay that doesn't solve AF issues for other shooting scenarios..

What I can say, having owned a 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D is that none measure up to the pure IQ of my EOS M.

Sure the 7D will get better focused sport shots. Sure my 60D is better for video, having the flexi screen and running ML very nicely.. but if I'm landscaping I tend to take my EOS M(1).

I'm not a DR freak, but I am a noise freak. And the Digic5 camera, the M seems to be a stop cleaner than my Digic4 cameras (that is, iso1600 on my M is similar to iso800 from any of my Digig4 cameras) which have all been absolutely interchangable in terms of the noise at the same settings.

If you are pushing the DR in post this may have a bearing for you.

I use this example because the sensor in each of my cameras is apparently the same, with the processor being different. It's maybe a better comparison than two cameras with different sensors (like the 600D and the 70D)

I've never used the SL1, but if the 18MP / Digic 5 combo sensor works as well in that camera as in the M1 then it is a definite step up over the 18MP / Digic 4 combo.

If you can, I would wait for a comprehensive test of the 750 & 760D. Unless the M prices or SL1 prices are too tempting... remember you can apapt your EF-s and EF lenses to the M.

 

[Maximilian]

Hey guys,

long time lurker, first time poster here.
I have a specific question that I am sure you guys can help me with:
I am thinking about switching from a 70D(loser AF that Canon is unable to repair) to a 100D (Love the 9 Point AF, super reliable). My photography is very DR dependent ...

Hi PhotoGuy!

Welcome to CR and compliments to those nice pictures esp. those from FFM.

I have a 100D as second body for traveling and really like its small size. As I don't have it that long, I can't share you any information or pictures concerning your request about DR. Maybe someday later.
I hope someone else can offer more information. Maybe you can rent or lend it for tests.

Have a good time here on CR.

 

[Aglet]

70D's about the best Canon has to offer at the moment, 7d2 perhaps a tad better but I don't have them to compare.
What you're doing is pretty much the forté of SoNikon equipment (Nikon, Pentax, Fuji, Sony) so if this is something you do a lot of, it's certainly worth considering different equipment.
NO Canon FF yet made is completely free of fixed pattern noise altho the 6D is the best of them in that regard.

 

[TeT]

sent you a private message with download link to requested image

Please clue us in on your findings and if you determine the camera to be usable for your purposes.

 

[pwp]

The SL1 is a very cool little travel camera which was my go-to lightweight travel/hiking body until I got a Panasonic GH4, primarily for video shooting but doubles as a great lightweight travel/hiking camera. The SL1 isn't going to be your DR monster...FF will serve your purposes better. Obviously the GH4 won't come near a Canon FF for overall image quality for stills, but interestingly the GH4 actually pulls comfortably ahead of my 5DIII for DR.

For the sort of shots you have showed us (very nice!) a simple HDR bracket and process in LR CC's new HDR option could provide all the DR you'll ever need, using your current gear.

FWIW the 9 point AF on the SL1 was my main reason for selling it. After the 5DIII and 1D MkIV arrays of AF points, the 9 point system was frustrating for my style of work where I'm often seeking wide aperture shallow DOF images where pinpoint AF is critical. For landscape work, it's obviously not so critical. Even MF is fine (and sometimes preferable).

If you're using LR CC, give the new HDR function a try. The best HDR shots don't overtly look like you have used HDR at all. The overbaked HDR images so often seen can be an acquired taste. If you don't have LR CC, check out the free trail version. If you are budget-constrained, buying into LR is going to be a lot less expensive than a camera upgrade.

-pw

 

[Deleted member 7828]

If you're looking mainly at DR I would actually stay away from the SL1 - I've found it to blow out skies very easily, and once you blow out a sky with that camera, it's not coming back.

Canon's FF bodies (like the 6D and 5D3) have a bit more editing latitude when it comes to stretching out a scene. Skies are more easily recoverable as long as the photo wasn't too far overexposed.

If you're not married to one brand, apparently Nikon is a couple steps ahead of Canon in the DR department - I think the D7200 is the 70D equivalent so have a look at that as well. Probably won't see a significant difference in most everyday shots however.

I'm not one of those who screams about DR all the time, but I found DR to be a notable weakness with the SL1 and I would definitely look elsewhere if that was my priority.

 

[Gnocchi]

If you're looking mainly at DR I would actually stay away from the SL1 - I've found it to blow out skies very easily, and once you blow out a sky with that camera, it's not coming back.

Canon's FF bodies (like the 6D and 5D3) have a bit more editing latitude when it comes to stretching out a scene. Skies are more easily recoverable as long as the photo wasn't too far overexposed.

If you're not married to one brand, apparently Nikon is a couple steps ahead of Canon in the DR department - I think the D7200 is the 70D equivalent so have a look at that as well. Probably won't see a significant difference in most everyday shots however.

I'm not one of those who screams about DR all the time, but I found DR to be a notable weakness with the SL1 and I would definitely look elsewhere if that was my priority.

couldnt you expose less so the sky would not blow out?

 

[verysimplejason]

If you're looking mainly at DR I would actually stay away from the SL1 - I've found it to blow out skies very easily, and once you blow out a sky with that camera, it's not coming back.

Canon's FF bodies (like the 6D and 5D3) have a bit more editing latitude when it comes to stretching out a scene. Skies are more easily recoverable as long as the photo wasn't too far overexposed.

If you're not married to one brand, apparently Nikon is a couple steps ahead of Canon in the DR department - I think the D7200 is the 70D equivalent so have a look at that as well. Probably won't see a significant difference in most everyday shots however.

I'm not one of those who screams about DR all the time, but I found DR to be a notable weakness with the SL1 and I would definitely look elsewhere if that was my priority.

couldnt you expose less so the sky would not blow out?

You can do that but your foreground will be darker. If you are using Canon aps, you'll definitely see some banding noise. I used 60d and 500d. 6D is just a lot better but for landscapes, HDR is still the better alternative. I've used DPP's HDR and it's a good introductory tool for HDR processing.

 

[Gnocchi]

If you're looking mainly at DR I would actually stay away from the SL1 - I've found it to blow out skies very easily, and once you blow out a sky with that camera, it's not coming back.

Canon's FF bodies (like the 6D and 5D3) have a bit more editing latitude when it comes to stretching out a scene. Skies are more easily recoverable as long as the photo wasn't too far overexposed.

If you're not married to one brand, apparently Nikon is a couple steps ahead of Canon in the DR department - I think the D7200 is the 70D equivalent so have a look at that as well. Probably won't see a significant difference in most everyday shots however.

I'm not one of those who screams about DR all the time, but I found DR to be a notable weakness with the SL1 and I would definitely look elsewhere if that was my priority.

couldnt you expose less so the sky would not blow out?

You can do that but your foreground will be darker. If you are using Canon aps, you'll definitely see some banding noise. I used 60d and 500d. 6D is just a lot better but for landscapes, HDR is still the better alternative. I've used DPP's HDR and it's a good introductory tool for HDR processing.

Righto, thanks for your explanation. Regards Gnoc.

 

[PhotoGuy]

Hey everybody,

thanks for your suggestions and helping me out. Special thanks to Gnocchi and TeT who provided me perfect samples of what I was looking for - Huge thanks to you guys!

You might be better off with a full frame or switching to SONIKON

I did not explain my situation completely, sry for that. Let me explain
I already have a Fuji E1 with a 18-55 (fantstic lens) for when I need a lot of dynamic range which I use most of the time for landscapes and fun. Got that combo second hand for a great price. The Fuji Lenses I'd need to replace my 70-200 f4 (non IS) and 50mm 1.8 with are way out of my pricerange. Plus it is always great to have a DSLR at hand for Studio / Portrait work. Nikon would be possible but I'd lose a lot of money selling my gear and the Nikon Lenses are more expensive - plus there is really nothing wrong with the performance of my Canon Lenses, I love them.
Furthermore I think it is only temporarily that Canon lags behind in terms of DR (and that stupid 19 Point AF) and I do not want to have to think about switching systems again once they catch up.

Full Frame is interesting indeed. I'd lose the 18-55 which I really like (please dont laugh) and would have to replace that with a 24-whatever which would cost another 600€ plus around 800€ for upgrading from 70D to 6D. 1400€ for upgrading is too expensive. Especially since I have the Fuji for high DR.
The question I had was more like:
Whats the best Canon body for me to use my Canon Lenses with without completely sacrificing DR

First of all: You've done AFMA adjustment in their 70D?

Yes I have. It's not that the focus is off, but its inconsistent. Ive sent it to Canon with a very detailed description, sample pics and they couldn't find a problem. Focus is way off on more than 50% of the shots with primes - its not usable. I had similar problems with my old 7D and assumed they would have fixed it after 5 years in the 70D (they didn't).
I had already begun questioning my technique but everytime I grab a Nikon or Canon with the old 9 Point AF everything is spot on perfect!

And the Digic5 camera, the M seems to be a stop cleaner than my Digic4 cameras (that is, iso1600 on my M is similar to iso800 from any of my Digig4 cameras) which have all been absolutely interchangable in terms of the noise at the same settings.

If you are pushing the DR in post this may have a bearing for you.

I use this example because the sensor in each of my cameras is apparently the same, with the processor being different. It's maybe a better comparison than two cameras with different sensors (like the 600D and the 70D)

I've never used the SL1, but if the 18MP / Digic 5 combo sensor works as well in that camera as in the M1 then it is a definite step up over the 18MP / Digic 4 combo.

I think you are on to something. Digic 5 might have a lot of influence on the noise in the shadows.
I have done some further research and on http://www.imaging-resource.com/ found the following DR ratings:
600D 10,2 (Digic 4)
650D 11,1 (Digic 5)
700D 11,1 (Digic 5)
100D 11 (Digic 5)
70D 11,7 (Digic 5)
7DII 11,8 (Digic 6), but out of price range and i don't need the performance.
Apparantly its the Digic 5 which allows shadows to be pushed a lot more. (Cooking the raw files?). That also underlines my findings that the 600D in my samples shot is not great for pushing shadows.

(Also interesting is that according to DxO, the 600D has 0,3 better DR than either 700D or 100D - which is utter nonsense. Shadows look awful on the 600D.)

If you can, I would wait for a comprehensive test of the 750 & 760D

The sensors do look tempting, but they have the 19 Point %/"§/%$! AF. Maybe wait a few weeks/months and check for users reporting problems...

The SL1 isn't going to be your DR monster

It doesn't have to be, as long as it's not terribly awful


So what did I find out?
The sample TeT provided was taken in strong daylight and the 100D is absolutely fine for pushing the shadows 1-2 stops in harsh light. Thats plenty and a good performance I am happy with.
Gnocchi did provide me with a very beautiful pic (see attachment) thats the perfect test for my kind of shooting (strong backlight). I edited it in my style and applied some NR in Lightroom (20 luminance + some color). What I do find is that the 100D is completely free of banding and a huge step up from the 600D (more so than the DR rating would suggest). Yes it does get noisy when pushing the shadows, but there is no banding and noise is "beautiful" (very simliar to 70D). When you look at the shadows in that pic (engines, cockpit and bottom of the boat) you can see that a bit more DR would be useful (esp around the engines), but im fine with that and I don't think the 70D would make a huge difference here. The image as a whole looks good and I'm fine with the noise.
Worth noting is that i think the image could have been taken with +1/3 maybe +2/3 more exposure, lowering the stress on the shadows and sacrificing only minor detail in the colors around the sun. (which are lost to some extend anyway due to converting to sRGB).

Overall I am happy with the results of the 100D. I think it will be a great gap-filler until the 80D comes along or maybe wait what the 750D/760D users will have to say about the AF. But first I will wait for my 70D to come back from service again and give it another try.

Thanks again for helping me out and all the great tips you guys came up with.

 

[Gnocchi]

Hey everybody,

thanks for your suggestions and helping me out. Special thanks to Gnocchi and TeT who provided me perfect samples of what I was looking for - Huge thanks to you guys!

You might be better off with a full frame or switching to SONIKON

I did not explain my situation completely, sry for that. Let me explain
I already have a Fuji E1 with a 18-55 (fantstic lens) for when I need a lot of dynamic range which I use most of the time for landscapes and fun. Got that combo second hand for a great price. The Fuji Lenses I'd need to replace my 70-200 f4 (non IS) and 50mm 1.8 with are way out of my pricerange. Plus it is always great to have a DSLR at hand for Studio / Portrait work. Nikon would be possible but I'd lose a lot of money selling my gear and the Nikon Lenses are more expensive - plus there is really nothing wrong with the performance of my Canon Lenses, I love them.
Furthermore I think it is only temporarily that Canon lags behind in terms of DR (and that stupid 19 Point AF) and I do not want to have to think about switching systems again once they catch up.

Full Frame is interesting indeed. I'd lose the 18-55 which I really like (please dont laugh) and would have to replace that with a 24-whatever which would cost another 600€ plus around 800€ for upgrading from 70D to 6D. 1400€ for upgrading is too expensive. Especially since I have the Fuji for high DR.
The question I had was more like:
Whats the best Canon body for me to use my Canon Lenses with without completely sacrificing DR

First of all: You've done AFMA adjustment in their 70D?

Yes I have. It's not that the focus is off, but its inconsistent. Ive sent it to Canon with a very detailed description, sample pics and they couldn't find a problem. Focus is way off on more than 50% of the shots with primes - its not usable. I had similar problems with my old 7D and assumed they would have fixed it after 5 years in the 70D (they didn't).
I had already begun questioning my technique but everytime I grab a Nikon or Canon with the old 9 Point AF everything is spot on perfect!

And the Digic5 camera, the M seems to be a stop cleaner than my Digic4 cameras (that is, iso1600 on my M is similar to iso800 from any of my Digig4 cameras) which have all been absolutely interchangable in terms of the noise at the same settings.

If you are pushing the DR in post this may have a bearing for you.

I use this example because the sensor in each of my cameras is apparently the same, with the processor being different. It's maybe a better comparison than two cameras with different sensors (like the 600D and the 70D)

I've never used the SL1, but if the 18MP / Digic 5 combo sensor works as well in that camera as in the M1 then it is a definite step up over the 18MP / Digic 4 combo.

I think you are on to something. Digic 5 might have a lot of influence on the noise in the shadows.
I have done some further research and on http://www.imaging-resource.com/ found the following DR ratings:
600D 10,2 (Digic 4)
650D 11,1 (Digic 5)
700D 11,1 (Digic 5)
100D 11 (Digic 5)
70D 11,7 (Digic 5)
7DII 11,8 (Digic 6), but out of price range and i don't need the performance.
Apparantly its the Digic 5 which allows shadows to be pushed a lot more. (Cooking the raw files?). That also underlines my findings that the 600D in my samples shot is not great for pushing shadows.

(Also interesting is that according to DxO, the 600D has 0,3 better DR than either 700D or 100D - which is utter nonsense. Shadows look awful on the 600D.)

If you can, I would wait for a comprehensive test of the 750 & 760D

The sensors do look tempting, but they have the 19 Point %/"§/%$! AF. Maybe wait a few weeks/months and check for users reporting problems...

The SL1 isn't going to be your DR monster

It doesn't have to be, as long as it's not terribly awful


So what did I find out?
The sample TeT provided was taken in strong daylight and the 100D is absolutely fine for pushing the shadows 1-2 stops in harsh light. Thats plenty and a good performance I am happy with.
Gnocchi did provide me with a very beautiful pic (see attachment) thats the perfect test for my kind of shooting (strong backlight). I edited it in my style and applied some NR in Lightroom (20 luminance + some color). What I do find is that the 100D is completely free of banding and a huge step up from the 600D (more so than the DR rating would suggest). Yes it does get noisy when pushing the shadows, but there is no banding and noise is "beautiful" (very simliar to 70D). When you look at the shadows in that pic (engines, cockpit and bottom of the boat) you can see that a bit more DR would be useful (esp around the engines), but im fine with that and I don't think the 70D would make a huge difference here. The image as a whole looks good and I'm fine with the noise.
Worth noting is that i think the image could have been taken with +1/3 maybe +2/3 more exposure, lowering the stress on the shadows and sacrificing only minor detail in the colors around the sun. (which are lost to some extend anyway due to converting to sRGB).

Overall I am happy with the results of the 100D. I think it will be a great gap-filler until the 80D comes along or maybe wait what the 750D/760D users will have to say about the AF. But first I will wait for my 70D to come back from service again and give it another try.

Thanks again for helping me out and all the great tips you guys came up with.

Glad to have helped photo guy. Jeez you certainly pulled some detail out of the shadows! I'm sure there are a lot better cams out there for this type of thing but I think the little canon does ok

 

[MintChocs]

Early reviews of the new 24mp sensor show about a 1/3 stop improvement with slightly less red noise. Don't forget that different RAW processing software and noise reduction might be just as beneficial.