new to digital questions...

[Eddie_2001]

Hi all,

After 30+ years of shooting Canon film cameras (I have 5 A-1's, only one of which is working well anymore) I am giving serious thought to getting an EOS digital camera of some sort. So far my choices are either a 60D or a 7D. I think the 7D may be a bit much to start with, but the lack of micro focusing on the 60D makes me think twice about that camera. But the 7D is somewhat older now, and I've read about focusing problems with it. I shoot mostly outdoor action (railroad trains, sports, desert scenes, etc.) and have been quite happy with the results on Provia 100F and using my 80-200 f4 L lens. But as I get older, the thought of image stabilization and auto focus is temping as well.

I did call the Canon owner's loyalty program, but all they have for the trade-in program are either 50D's or the 7D - the 60D is not on that program.

Is there a reason for the 7D to use a CF card rather than the SDHC cards my Canon HiDef camcorder uses? I see the CF cards are quite a bit more than the SDHC cards are. I'd like to be able to use the same cards in everything. I also note that the lens with the 60D (18-200mm) is somewhat strange to me in that the front of the lens extends out quite a bit when zooming, whereas the FD 80-200 L lens does not...is that something to be concerned with, in that I live in the Phoenix Arizona area and there is a lot of dust in the air at times. I'm thinking that with the lens extending and retracting like that it could be a way for dust to get sucked inside the lens.

Any thoughts or comments are more than welcome...thanks!

Ted in Mesa AZ

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

There are several reasons why the more professional types of cameras use compact flash.

1. Its faster. 60 mb/sec cards are relatively cheap.

2. They are available in higher capacity as needed for the high frame per second / video capability.

3. In freezing weather, with gloves on, you actually can change a card in your camera.

4. They are cheap, and when you own a a large number of large capacity cards, cost is a factor.

There are plenty of negatives as well, like the poor pin and socket arrangement in which a bent pin will ruin a camera and require expensive repair.

In my 1D MK III, I can, of course use either one, but I always chose a CF for the speed and capacity.

 

[Loswr]

Welcome, Ted!

The 7D is ideally suited to sports - the AF system is the best you'll get short of a $5K 1-series body. Don't fret over Internet complaints about AF issues. In many cases, problems arise from the number of options and improper use (using Spot AF for sports, for example).

RE the zoom extension, most zoom lenses do extent. The 80-200 L ('magic drainpipe') and it's successors the white 70-200mm zooms are an exception. Many extending L lenses (e.g., 24-105mm f/4L IS) offer dust- and water-resistance. Honestly, I'd stay away from the 18-200mm regardless - it's a consumer zoom that won't deliver the quality you're used to with an L lens, plus it lacks a USM AF motor, meaning it focuses relatively slowly - bad for sports.

Are you aware of the 'crop factor'? The bodies you're considering use a sensor that's smaller than 35mm film. As a result, the field of view you get is smaller for a given focal length, by a factor of 1.6x. For example, an 80-200mm lens on a 60D or 7D will give you the field of view you'd get with a 128-320mm lens on a film camera. That can be an advantage for sports, a challenge for wide angles (which is why there are now lenses like the EF-S 10-22mm, which is equivalent to a 16-35mm lens on full frame.

Image stabilization is great, but not a panacea. It works by allowing you to handhold a lens at a longer shutter speed than normally possible. That helps a lot if your subject is still, but not as much for moving subjects. So, I can take a shot after twilight with my 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II at 200mm and handhold at 1/15 s - but, that's not enough to freeze the motion of a person walking, much less a sports situation.

Hope some of that helps, and welcome to the digital age!

 

[UncleFester]

But the 7D is somewhat older now, and I've read about focusing problems with it.

Like neuroanatomist pointed out, it's usually user error.

But, the 7D has a focus button on the back that you can use to lock on your subject while working the shutter from the front release. If you see that it isn't locking on for some reason, you can let off and then back on again to lock. That usually works for me. (I'm not sure if the 60 has that or not).

Out of roughly 2500 images I shot at an event last weekend, I only lost one sequence, which was my fault.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

I went for the 7d, just had it a week using the CLP. I chose the 15-85mm consumer grade lens for it, I have lots of L lenses, like the 24-105, 70-200mm L, 35mmL, and a lot more, but the 15-85mm is the one that will be one it most of the time. I have a specific use for the camera in my studio doing product photography to upgrade my great old 40D. The 15-85mm zoom is excellent for tethered manual focus, and much to my surprise, the AF with the 7d is just as good as I can do manually with about 20 - 50x magnification.

I will still use MF to focus sharply on specific features.

I also took the 7D to a local small town rodeo last friday. They have a high fence and low bleachers, so I had to shoot thru the gaps. The spot AF allowed me to keep focused on the subject rather than the fence (mostly). I started with the center group focus, but it grabbed the fence too often. I had no problem keeping the subjects in focus. Light was a big problem, low light plus high shutter speed really taxed the 7D, but that was a situation where only a 1D MK IV would have captured the best images. My 5D MK II would also have captured the low light images well, its AF in low light is excellent, and AF speed is adequate unless the subject is coming straight towards you or away, in which case, at the speeds they move on the horses, any camera will struggle, and so did the 7D. Its not fair to it to do that type of image in low light, but i wanted to find out its limits, and overall, I was quite pleased.

If you want a zoom to match the 7d, that is similar to your old zoom, divide the focal lengths you used on 35mm film by 1.6. Thats why a 15-85mm lens covers most of the ideal focal lengths, its just not a wide aperture lens.

Certainly, there are several good lenses, some are sealed where dust is a concern. If there is a lot of dust, dust on your sensor is the issue as compared to dust in the lens which is usually not visable in the image. When you get a dirty sensor, it can show up quite visibally, and all sensors have dust on them, its just a matter of how much and how big the particles are. 5 seconds after cleaning your sensor, tiny dust particles begin to land on it.

In a dusty area, get a rocket blower for frequent use, and either plan to have your sensor cleaned at a camera shop, or learn to do it yourself. There is a fair cost for really good cleaning equipment, and, you can make it worse or even damage a sensor.

Of course, keeping a lens on the camera when in heavy dust is a necessity.

 

[Eddie_2001]

Hi again,

Many thanks for the quick replies!

Regarding the CF card issue, I do wonder why Canon thinks the SDHC cards are fast enough for use in my HF S30 camcorder running full 1080p, but not fast enough for the 7D? I do not intend to use the video features of the 7D or 60D - thats why I got the camcorder. I do see NewEgg has SD to CF adapters, so if I do end up with a 7D I can still use my SDHC cards (I have several of the Class 10 32 GB cards for the video). I've heard too many stories about bent pins on the CF cards damaging the camera's connectors.

Another issue (for me at least) is that on the 60D the LCD viewfinder can swivel so that it is facing inwards and not be damaged or scratched, where on the 7D it does not. I doubt that I would ever use the LCD for anything other than setting menu options...shooting fast moving trains, sports, birds, etc. would be awkward at best trying to hold the camera at arms length in the sunlight while following the action. Looking through the viewfinder and then having my nose rub against the LCD panel might mess things up, and certainly would get dirty as well. I don't see any kind of covers on the B&H website for covering or protecting the screen except for a couple that need to be glued or taped (!) to the camera.

About the only time I can see using the LCD screen would be for landscapes with the camera on a tripod. It makes me think of the old fashioned ground glass viewfinders .

The lens I would like to start with would be the 24-105 L - that would be a good range to have, and I am also concerned about getting dust on the sensor, so the fewer lens changes the better. How well does the in-camera sensor cleaning work?

Interesting how most zoom lens do extend - I guess the 2 Canon zooms I use (the 8-200 f4 L and the 35-105) were the few that do not extend. Its not a big deal...at first it made me think of a cheap point & shoot type of thing! As long as the lens is reasonably well sealed it should be fine. I don't shoot in dust storms, but anytime out in the desert there is a lot of crud in the air, even when the wind is calm.

Seeing as how the CLP will sell me a 7D refurb for just over 1K, and the 60D body is about 900 (and not in the CLP), it may be worth while to spend the extra 100 for the better body. I was thinking about a FF body, but that is out of my price range, at least for now. I guess I like to have a metal body as well, and a shutter that would be more rugged. These cameras feel light to me....especially after using the A-1 with the 80-200 L and the MA motor drive (it takes *12* AA batteries) most all of them would be lighter.

Would the battery grip be worthwhile? I do shoot vertically at times, and the extra shutter buttons on the MA drive come in handy.

And thanks for the info on that 18-200 lens....I didn't realize that it did not have the USM focus, and yes, fast focusing is important to me. Can the 7D keep up with moving subjects? Does it refocus between each shot? With the film cameras I tend to prefocus at max zoom and then as I back off the zoom I can re-focus if necessary, especially with the 80-200 one-touch focus and zoom ring. Mt Spokane mentioned about fast moving horses not always being in focus...although he did say it was in low light. Most all of my photos are outdoors during the day, so maybe that would make a difference. The sun can be really bright out here, and I almost always expose the Provia 100F at 1/2 stop less than what Fuji says (500 at f8 instead of 6.7) account the extra bright light reflecting from the sand.

Thanks again for the advice and comments - it is much appreciated!

Ted

 

[UncleFester]

Hi again,

Many thanks for the quick replies!

Regarding the CF card issue, I do wonder why Canon thinks the SDHC cards are fast enough for use in my HF S30 camcorder running full 1080p, but not fast enough for the 7D? I do not intend to use the video features of the 7D or 60D - thats why I got the camcorder. I do see NewEgg has SD to CF adapters, so if I do end up with a 7D I can still use my SDHC cards (I have several of the Class 10 32 GB cards for the video). I've heard too many stories about bent pins on the CF cards damaging the camera's connectors.

Another issue (for me at least) is that on the 60D the LCD viewfinder can swivel so that it is facing inwards and not be damaged or scratched, where on the 7D it does not. I doubt that I would ever use the LCD for anything other than setting menu options...shooting fast moving trains, sports, birds, etc. would be awkward at best trying to hold the camera at arms length in the sunlight while following the action. Looking through the viewfinder and then having my nose rub against the LCD panel might mess things up, and certainly would get dirty as well. I don't see any kind of covers on the B&H website for covering or protecting the screen except for a couple that need to be glued or taped (!) to the camera.

About the only time I can see using the LCD screen would be for landscapes with the camera on a tripod. It makes me think of the old fashioned ground glass viewfinders .

The lens I would like to start with would be the 24-105 L - that would be a good range to have, and I am also concerned about getting dust on the sensor, so the fewer lens changes the better. How well does the in-camera sensor cleaning work?

Interesting how most zoom lens do extend - I guess the 2 Canon zooms I use (the 8-200 f4 L and the 35-105) were the few that do not extend. Its not a big deal...at first it made me think of a cheap point & shoot type of thing! As long as the lens is reasonably well sealed it should be fine. I don't shoot in dust storms, but anytime out in the desert there is a lot of crud in the air, even when the wind is calm.

Seeing as how the CLP will sell me a 7D refurb for just over 1K, and the 60D body is about 900 (and not in the CLP), it may be worth while to spend the extra 100 for the better body. I was thinking about a FF body, but that is out of my price range, at least for now. I guess I like to have a metal body as well, and a shutter that would be more rugged. These cameras feel light to me....especially after using the A-1 with the 80-200 L and the MA motor drive (it takes *12* AA batteries) most all of them would be lighter.

Would the battery grip be worthwhile? I do shoot vertically at times, and the extra shutter buttons on the MA drive come in handy.

And thanks for the info on that 18-200 lens....I didn't realize that it did not have the USM focus, and yes, fast focusing is important to me. Can the 7D keep up with moving subjects? Does it refocus between each shot? With the film cameras I tend to prefocus at max zoom and then as I back off the zoom I can re-focus if necessary, especially with the 80-200 one-touch focus and zoom ring. Mt Spokane mentioned about fast moving horses not always being in focus...although he did say it was in low light. Most all of my photos are outdoors during the day, so maybe that would make a difference. The sun can be really bright out here, and I almost always expose the Provia 100F at 1/2 stop less than what Fuji says (500 at f8 instead of 6.7) account the extra bright light reflecting from the sand.

Thanks again for the advice and comments - it is much appreciated!

Ted

The rear lcd is a lot tougher than most people who haven't used one think. I'm pretty rough on camera bodies and only have a small light scratch on my 5DII. and that's from thorn brush. My 20d and 7d don't have any marks.

Face marks on lcds are just a part of shooting. you won't notice it. I just clean the entire cam when I get home.

SD cards = slow transfer rates for raw files. Someone who knows more about that can pipe in.

And when you're shooting sports,birds etc, you'll be looking through the viewfinder, not the lcd.

 

[thejoyofsobe]

yeah LCDs are tough and any facial grease is easily wiped away with a shirt. while you aren't going to use live-view for any kind of subject in motion it doesn't mean you should flip the LCD screen inwards to protect it while you're still using the camera. with the camera's auto-review on the LCD screen you can see the picture you just took and make any adjustments to technique, settings or composition you see fit. it's quite handy if you want to get the best results in the field and this instant feedback is the biggest selling point of digital cameras.

 

[Eddie_2001]

Thanks again for the comments....I've pretty well have decided on a 7D and the 24-10 lens to start with. I'll get them from the refurb store and trade in one of my broken A1's for the loyalty program.

Now its just a matter of saving up the $$ for them.

Ted

 

[Loswr]

Hi Ted,

I think the 7D + 24-105mm f/4L IS is a good choice. The combo is dust- and water-resistant (to a point, and I'd recommend a UV filter). Do keep in mind that you're giving up the wide angle - the 24-105mm on a 7D is equivalent to a 38-168mm lens on film/FF, i.e. normal to telephoto. That may be an issue for indoor group shots, and f/4 is also slow for indoor ambient lighting. Translation - the 24-105mm works very as an outdoor walkaround lens, provided you don't need a wide angle view.

I'll try to address some of your other points.

SD vs. CF speed. Your HF S30 (and my HF M41) shoot 'full 1080p' but 1080p is effectively 2 megapixel (MP) images (1920x1080 pixels) at 30 fps (either as 30p or 60i frame rate). So, that's 60 MP/s, and even then the data are compressed before being written to the card, so much less than 60 MP/s is actually written out. The 7D shoots 18 MP images at 8 fps meaning 144 MP/s must be written out. Granted, I've simplified some things (there's an image buffer, so 8 fps RAW can't be maintained indefinitely, etc.). But the bottom line is that the 7D is capturing a lot more data that 1080p.

The LCD. You might not use it often for Live View, i.e. composing your shot, but one huge advantage of digital over film is intasnt feedback. After a shot, you can quickly check exposure (there's a histogram view, and a setting to indicate blown highlights by blinking). That feature can really help getting exposure correct in challenging light. You can get Zagg Invisible Shields that are custom-sized for the rear and top LCD.

Sensor cleaning. The 7D's automatic sensor cleaning works very well. The 5DII has the feature as well, yet I frequently need to clean it myself. I've had the 7D longer than the 5DII, used it in dustier environments, but I haven't yet needed to clean the sensor. If it does get a speck or two, a Giottos rocket blower will probably handle it, and if nit, I recommend the Visible Dust Arctic Butterfly 728 Superbright.

Battery grip. I have them on my 7D and 5DII and really like them. They make the camera easier to hold provided you don't mind the extra weight (and you're used to that), and also provide better balance for a heavier lens (not necessarily the 24-105mm, but certainly for my 70-200/2.8 and 100-400). Although the grips come with a holder for 6 AA's, I've never used that. You can put one or two LP-E6 batteries in there, and with 2 batteries I can take several hundred shots (pushing 1000). The vertical buttons are a plus, but one thing you'd have to get used to is that the shutter release on the Canon 7D grip is more sensitive than the one on the camera (not the case for the 5DII's grip).

Moving subjects - can the 7D keep up? The short answer is yes. The 7D is a sports/action camera, and its AF system is substantially better for moving subjects than any other Canon dSLR short of a >$5K 1-series body. The AF on the 7D has many modes and customizations - the Canon Digital Learning Center has a bunch of video tutorials on the 7D, including many on the AF system options. FWIW, my settings for moving subjects (usually birds in flight) are AI Servo with AF Point Expansion and the C.Fns for tracking set to subject priority and slow. I also recommend back button AF, where AF is triggered by the AF-ON button (thumb on back) and the shutter release does metering and shutter only. The Canon DLC has a nice article on that, too. Yes, the camera will AF before each frame, even at 8 fps. AI Servo also uses algorithms to predict where your subject will be at the next frame.

If I missed anything above, or you have more questions, post back.

Hope that helps...

 

[Eddie_2001]

Many thanks for all of the comments - it has been most helpful!

And I was all set to order the 24-105 lens today, and I see that the on-line store is sold out of almost every refurb lens they list. Hopefully they will get more stock in soon.

Neuroanatomist....thanks for the detailed explanation of the CF vs SD cards...I hadn't realized that the 1080p data was only a 2 mp image, so that does make sense.

The other lens I would be getting eventually is the 70-200 L at f4 (I can't justify an extra 1000$ for one more f stop!), so between the 2 lenses I would be all set. I very rarely shoot at anything wider than 35mm anyways, so I think these 2 lenses would be all that I would need. I do have a 24mm FD lens that has not been used for several years.

Good news about how fast the 7D can autofocus...that seems pretty darn good to me. I guess I didn't realize how powerful the onboard computers really are these days.

Thanks again...

Ted

 

[UncleFester]

Many thanks for all of the comments - it has been most helpful!

And I was all set to order the 24-105 lens today, and I see that the on-line store is sold out of almost every refurb lens they list. Hopefully they will get more stock in soon.

Neuroanatomist....thanks for the detailed explanation of the CF vs SD cards...I hadn't realized that the 1080p data was only a 2 mp image, so that does make sense.

The other lens I would be getting eventually is the 70-200 L at f4 (I can't justify an extra 1000$ for one more f stop!), so between the 2 lenses I would be all set. I very rarely shoot at anything wider than 35mm anyways, so I think these 2 lenses would be all that I would need. I do have a 24mm FD lens that has not been used for several years.

Good news about how fast the 7D can autofocus...that seems pretty darn good to me. I guess I didn't realize how powerful the onboard computers really are these days.

Thanks again...

Ted

The 70-200 f/4 is nice, but the 2.8 version smokes. It's not just about stops.... IMO, it is well worth the extra $$$.

 

[CanineCandidsByL]

Speculating about why a company does something, is about the same as speculating why a genetic adapatation is an advantage. If you can think of it, it might a reason but you'll never know.

One reason CFs may be on the 7d beyond the ones already given is the ability of the camera to serve as a backup to the pricier pros. Several pros on podcasts I listen to have traded in their more expensive cameras for 7ds, carry 7ds as a cheaper way of having a 2nd lens ready, and/or use it when there is increased risk of damage and they don't want to risk their 6k camera.

I have seen coments suggesting its low light isnt as good, but its generally adaquate for any sporting event, outdoors or in. I'm still working on getting better autofocus, but I'm certain the problem is me and not the camera or lens. I get great shots, just not consitantly.

Good luck!

 

[CanineCandidsByL]

Sorry, just realized I didn't connect my thought together. If your using the 7d as a backup/replacment for the top pro cameras, you already have a bevy of CF. I wouldn't mind seeing a duel CF/SDHC so people could use either, both as backup, both as alternating locations (faster). But that would cost $, that I think most 7D users would rather not spend.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

If you are doing a job to earn a living, be paranoid about backups, backup cameras, memory cards, data storage and backups, etc.

If your camera does not have dual cards, a workaround is needed.

Here is one Pro's workflow for those Big $$$ jobs.

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2011/07/29/workflow/