The Future of EOS HD [CR2]

Any info on how long we might have to wait until its out of testing? I hope its not as much time as we had to wait for manual control.

Still, if they say they were planning on putting it in this release but couldn’t get to it, it might just be a matter of weeks.

On the other hand, it could be much longer as where they scraped the function as apparently they didn’t see it happen any time soon.

Ohh.. give us 25p please so people in Europe and Asia can finally film indoors under the lights again!

we’re getting somewhere it seems! i hope this is true, sounds comprehensible at least.

i don t understand why 25 p is not even a matter of discussion!!!
here in europe we have as a standard 25p!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we would also like to have the possibility to use the camera as the us customers!!!it s just a question of loyalty towards us european customer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks for listening!!!!!!!!

For me the only real question is… WHEN ?

OF course, all these features will appear and the 60D will be released… but the real question is, how long will we have to wait.

I think it is something to consider for CanonRumors. Do not only look for info but also for timeframe and deadlines.

Yeah, why can’t this stupid rumor site give me all the reliable insider info I want?!! ;-)

OH NO NOT AGAIN,

WHENN ARE WE PLEASED????

WHENN ALL THE FRAME RATES ARE INSTALLED!!!!

IS IT REALLY SO MUCH ASKED IN THESE MODERN TIMES???

I guess it is not, or are they still needs to be confinced about marketing issues, that is are they still afraid off the new times?

I hope they will also program for the 25 fps Europe television commercials and movies!

And I don’t hope to start again making a petition to them.

They have had it enough you would think.

Ok lets see.

Onno Nugteren.com

Better CMOS than 5D Mark II.

ISO 51200 and 102400, yeah yeah yeahs!!!

If we had a usable autofocus, then it could be used for wide aperture shallow depth of field for events where there is a lot of motion towards and away from the camera.

A person cannot manually adjust focus while running the camera without a rehersal and recording of the wanted focus settings like focus pullers do.

I think we will have it someday, but not for at least 2-3 years.

hmm, I don’t get it, before manual, everyone only want manual and 24 fps, now with manual, people now want 25 fps? Can’t we just get along the idea that a DSLR is not a video camera?

If they can achieve the same high ISO performance as the 5D2, they’ll have accomplished their goal given the relative sizes of the sensors.

they should try to get usable iq for iso 12800 first before going even further, don’t you agree?

Well in Europe our power supply runs at 50Hz which will cause a flicker with lighting with anything under or above 50hz but not multiple or divisive of 50hz…i.e. 25Hz/100Hz/200Hz or 25fps/100fps/200fps etc.

Hence…we need 25fps to get the non flicker quality like 60Hz countries….:)

Wow. Just wow.

Here I am not talking about CanonRumors responsability, but about Canon responsability (and all the “sources” from CanonRumors).

Let’s make things clear. Even if the 50d was released just 9 months ago, it is already completely out dated compared to concurrent, and more problematically, compared to the other Canon cameras.

First, many pointed that, on the photographic point of view, it is not better (or even worst) than the 40D.
Second, from the features point of view, the absence of the video mode is simply ridiculous compared to Canon T1i or to the nikon concurrents.

So now, the question is simple: when will canon have an “expert” camera which simply fits the concurrent and makes sense relatively to their other products.

SO @gwac: You can be ironic, I just try to be logical.

+1

[CR1]

No. It’s obviously not possible with current lenses.

wow, even the phase focus gets complaints for sports tracking and you think in just three years they will have contrast based tracking good enough for f/2.8 serious level sports shooting? They will be lucky to have it good enough for basic scenes of modest action IMO. Hollywood with all the money still uses people to focus when they shoot.

What you are talking about, unless they use some sort of split mirrors etc and use phase AF with video I think might be more like 5DMkVI than 5DMkIII.

Can some one tell me why I want 24p? I do shoot video with my MKII, but it’s really spur of the moment stuff. I bought it for photography, but was very pleasently surprised by the video. So, why will I benefit from the 24p, and for that matter, control over the video shutter speed? How does the shutter speed diferentiate from the frame rate? (I’ve assumed that you folks want manual control of the shutter for exposure adjustments, I just can’t seem to see how that seperates from frame rate). I know my camera inside and out with respect to photography, so teach me something about the video! Enlighten me!

It runs at 30 lines progressive?

Please explain.

25fps is more useful in Europe. As mentioned, the lights flicker unless you have some even division of 50Hz. I also believe the 24fps is more of a film standard, and corresponds to the film motion picture industry standard. No re-encoding necessary, 1 frame = 1 frame.

Shutter speed: There are two measurable gaps between shots. The time between the middle of the exposure, and the length of the exposure.

Frame 1, 1/125th
close, wait 1/125th
Frame 2, 1/125th
close, wait 1/125th
…

Frame 1, 1/30th
close, wait 1/220th
Frame 2, 1/30th
close, wait 1/220th

Something like that.

You can maintain a frame rate while the shutter speed varies.

Thanks for reference. I totaly get the desire for manual control, I primarily shoot in manual or Av, so I can understand, respect, and support that need. The green box blows except when I hand my 5 yo a camera!

So basically, you want 24p because that’s the standard in the film industry? You did not mention why it’s beneficial over 30p, etc.

Yes. It is fixed at 30fps no matter what. The shutter speed can vary from 1/30 or anything faster up to 1/4000 (or at least that’s what will be available when the new firmware hits – don’t know what the fastest shutter speed currently is as it is all automatic so I don’t know that it’s possible to tell).

People want to be able to choose the frame rate be it 24, 25, 30 or whatever based on their creative wishes or due to technical issues (50hz power in Europe and Australia for example).

There is no technical reason why one would prefer 24 over 30. It is a creative demand. For whatever reason, the film industry adopted 24 fps years ago and people like it. Filmmakers want their films to look like films have for decades, they don’t want them to look like daytime television which is what you get with 30 fps.

People would find it odd if their TV show were shown in 24p and likewise they’d find it odd if their films were in 30p. One is not ‘better’ than the other, they are just different and have traditionally been used in different ways.

The 25 fps, while close to 24 fps, will look like cinema, though people in Europe and like places have mains power that operates at 50hz which makes their lights appear to flickr when filmed at 30 fps. They want 25 fps so their lights will be in phase with the capture rate of the camera.

With the slow economy and Canon’s sales/profits in the tank I would not expect the 60D any time soon.

The AF in the video line, such as the HF S10, is quite good. Once they incorporate that into the DSLR’s there should be some very good AF in video modes. Not sure you can ever use the phase AF in video mode because the mirror is locked up so no light hits the AF sensor.

As a quick historical note, 24 fps was the fewest amount of frames you could use to see smooth motion. When producers wanted to try to buy the least amount of film possible, this was key.

30 fps was chosen in television (29.97 to be precise to sync up with the FM sound carrier in the signal, another long story) in NTSC due to our 60 hertz rate here in the states. Interlacing actually paints the screen 60 times a second, but only every other line, which means you see 30 frames a second. It’s a little weird, but nobody was paying for film (1950) and NTSC was convinced televisions added six frames would make it look smoother.

But overseas, they use 50 hertz, which means they’re seeing 25 fps. Hence, all the stress from our English and European friends who want to simply use the video option on their cameras as advertised.

The main point of everyone is that if Canon can make the camera do 25 fps, it’s just a quick stop to 24 fps to achieve matchie-matchie to film standards, which would eliminate re-rendering later on in post-production. You’ll hear the same arguments from those that want Canon to sync down to 29.97 fps to avoid more rendering to match actual television standards. This is a good link to explain:
http://www.andrewduncan.ws/Timecodes/Timecodes.html

.

“Much better CMOS than the 500D improved even from the 5D Mark II.”

– In what aspects? what specs would make it better than the one on the 5D Mk II ??

I can see a point using an old CRT TV or maybe cine projector. How is this relevant to MODERN TFT LCD devices that have refresh rate at 60Hz or far more?

I’m skeptical about this whole matching light frequency idea of 50 hertz vs. 60 hertz making 25p or 30p such a big deal. You’d think sunlight which is neither 50 or 60 hertz would screw that all up and yet the cameras can shoot just fine in sunlight. And I’ve never noticed any flicker shooting video in Europe indoors vs the USA. Maybe if you’re shooting the TV screen itself it would be a problem if they dont match. Other than that I think the posters making a big deal over that idea are mistaken or tricking people.

In any case, the issue is a lot like a photo, if you blow it up (ie 25p to 30p) it’s gonna suck. It’s always easier and better to downsample (30p to 25p or 24p) – and this is exactly what the manufactures do via pulldowns with the cameras recording at 30p native. So all this whining about no 25p or 24p is just silly.

For interest sake, I looked up the bigest 85 countries & what TV system they used.
PAL = 64%
NTSC = 17%
SECAM = 19%

So those on 30Hz (NTSC) are in the minority.
PAL & SECAM countries use 50Hz.

I guess the reason why they added this functionality to the 5D Mk II is due to the release of the Canon 60D soon.

The next 60D will most likely have the video specs the 5D MK II have currently before the update and this will be the method of differentiating both of them (besides the sensor).

The important thing will be whether somebody will be able to hack the current patch to the Mk II for the 60D.

yeah, but it still doesn’t touch phase contrast AF. Again, even the fastest phase systems can just barely keep up with high level sports photography

and the HF S10 has more DOF deosn’t it, that helps mask things compared to shooting a 400 2.8 at 2.8

yeah, i was thinking some sort of pellicle mirror or other trick with partial mirror and AF sensor in a different location than usual, but who knows when/if that ever happens

actually lots of TV shows are shot at 24fps
almost all the dramas Lost, Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles, each of the ten million different versions of CSI, Veronica Mars, Scrubs, and so on. Some of the older dramas appear to have been edited onto videotape or something though and only still exist in a lo-res worn out videotape format anymore.

And not just that, most TV shows, 30 Rock and many comedies also look to be shot on film at 24fps.

Nightly news looks to be video and most, if not all, reality stuff also looks like 60i video. Sports looks mostly like 60i ot 60p video. Probably most talk shows and many soaps too.

If Nikonrumors is right, we’ll soon have a D700s which is nothing more than D700 + video capabilities. Canon has a few years to demonstrate if they have FINALLY caught up with their competition.

It doesn’t matter. They are still using a pulldown from 60i or 30p to get 50i or 25p.

I think you are mistaken. What you’re describing is true of shooting TV screens perhaps but not lighting.

Maybe a pellicle mirror would work. Problem is these DSLR’s were not origially designed for Liveview focusing as all the R&D went into improving phase contrast AF back in the film days long before anyone thought they would ever record video. Now that they realized these cameras can record video too they are having to rethink and redesign for that, and Liveview is still pretty lame being that was also an enabled LCD screen feature that was not originally designed for focusing the camera.

As for the HF S10 and a 400 2.8 I have no idea how well it would work but I’m sure it would be far better than what the DSLR’s can do at this point with video focusing.

I think the real question for those of us shooting video is when will we see Canon upgrade the XL line of Camcorders to solid state media. Panasonic, Sony, and soon JVC are running the show with this. It seems sad to get great 1080p video out of a DSLR while the XLH1s is 1080i on DV tape, while they are at it they should ditch the 1/3 sensor for the now becoming standard 2/3. I have just recently shot a ton of video for work with the 5DMKii and I am really really really pleased. In a studio or on location with controlled lighting the quality is great. I am looking forward to the firmware upgrade for a little more creative control with Canon lenses.

whoops thats what i meant cmos slr’s

And still… the description of “better” cmos is vague and seems more like guess that reality.

Only way to get rid of the wobble is to have a global shutter function with the cmos instead of the rolling one

Incandescent light has a lot of inertia, so there is no problem. Perhaps there could be problems with fluorescent. In this case the best thing is to change the ballasts with electronic ones.

Simon

No, we don’t – we do use video and film cameras that shoot at native 50i and 25p without any pulldown like you describe. And yes, 30 and 24 fps cameras are a headache on location shooting in 50Hz countries due to light flicker. So the lack of a 25p version is a big reason why I haven’t bought a 5DmkII.

Yeah they speed it from 24 to 25 because a pulldown from adding frames is problematic! What I wrote is true. I’ve worked with converting film to video and the whole PAL/NTSC issue from several Bollywood projects in India I worked on.

I think that is a fanboi myth being propogated by people who have never really had the problem. Bad flourescents will show flicker on ANY video camera because that is what bad flourescents do – you can see the flicker with your own eyes so you know it’s gonna show up on the video too, and if you are shooting a TV screen you have to sync the shutter speed to match the frequency on the TV, other than that this is much ado about nothing except fanboi whining.

I’ve done numerous shoots in Europe, South Pacific, India and such PAL countries with NTSC and PAL cameras, and I’ve done post and conversion work from cameras shot in PAL in the USA and the reverse – never seen this flicker issue or even heard of it until I started reading all the whining on this rumor site about the lack of 25p on the 5D2.

Economics. The market is too soft. They dont want to start up production on new models when the camera aren’t going to sell enough.

I’m still confused about the “flickering” problem with 25p that people keep bringing up, and I’m wondering if someone can point me to a sample video where this is apparent – I’ve tried to find examples on the ‘Net, and can’t find any example…

I can understand why people would want native 25p to avoid the conversion process if they want to create a PAL or SECAM version of the video, but the “flickering lights” problem just doesn’t make any sense to me. If you’re filming using tungsten lights, or outdoors in the sun, there won’t be any flicker at all – both are a continuous, flicker-free light source. On the other hand, if you’re shooting an old CRT or under cheap fluorescent lights, then sure, there’s a problem – but why would you choose to use either as a for lighting a scene? The light would be terrible even if there were no flickering…

Again, I can understand why people would want to choose 25p to avoid conversion in post, but I don’t believe that the “flickering” problem is a real problem. That said, if anyone can point me to a video or two that shows that this is a legitimate problem, I’d be more than happy to change my position…

Of course, there is an aesthetic argument to using 24/25p over 30p – I completely understand that (although I believe it can be achieved in post-production, but I can see for people who don’t have the equipment to convert in post would like it native in the camera). I’m really just saying that I don’t believe the “without native 25p, video is useless to more than half the world because of flickering light” argument has any merit.

Anyway, I wouldn’t have bothered to write this comment, but I keep seeing the same argument again and again, and I think it’s incorrect.

Sorry for the rant… :-)

Peter T.

You “think it’s incorrect?” In ten minutes of web surfing you could figure out that “you’re incorrect.” This is an old, well-known, well-documented issue. What do you think, people are just making this up for the hell of it?

Took me all of 5 seconds to find this example:
http://www.vimeo.com/2569591

I have been at the big sun frequency transformation facility. They actually perform a conversion from suns native 99.97 Hz to 150 Hz. You should have seen the magnets! Now why they prefer 150Hz is completely beyond me. I asked but they uttered something about ‘IMAX … future … PR … contract’ so who knows. I take it as a sign that IMAX will go up to 150 fps. wow just wow.

(note to us Europeans: they are working on a switch for european daylight time: 25Hz – just for us, now that’s what I call customer relationship management)

It is inccorect. The problem is the lack of manual control over the shutter speed, which if you set it to 50 or 100 would solve the lighting flicker at 50 hertz. You can get the same problem with 30p in 60 hertz lighting if your shutter is not set in sync to it. The 5D2 picks the shutter speed for you so you can’t control it – that is the valid problem.

It is inccorect.

Well yeah true lots of sports is shot at 60p. I should have put that in. ABC Sports, ESPN, etc. but CBS and NBC still do 60i.

As for none of those shows are shot on film I’m sorry to say but you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

As for the I know so and so and have been to the sets and so on, if actually true, then either you didn’t recognize what was being used or misunderstood something they told you or happened upon a set where perhaps for the most recent season or two they did end up switching to 24p HD Video Cam shooting (there were some rumors during S2 that Lost would switch to digital 24p shooting starting with season 3 or 4 but i’m not sure if they ever did or not).

Anyway, at the very least, that stuff was certainly shot on film to start with and I believe much to all of it was at the end, as well, although perhaps a show or two switched to 24p hidcam of some sort or other for the most recent season or two.

here are a few quick bits going along with what I said:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0411008/technical

says Lost was shot 35mm 3-perf

doesn’t appear to mention any later switch to digital (but maybe they didn’t update it)

oh and what have I googled up here from Kodak:

https://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/hd/truth_film_hd.pdf

granted that last post doesn’t cover the most recent seasons (for the shows mentioned that had further seasons) but just to check against the list I gave above that you said I was 100% wrong about, well let’s see was it shot on film?:

Lost – check

Veronica Mars – check

Scrubs – check

CSI – check

Sarah Connor – show was not out yet when kodak made that flyer

So where was I wrong exactly?

And let’s just add to the list of TV shot on film:

The OC,Charmed,7th Heaven,One Tree Hill,Smallville,24,House,Desperate Housewives,Everybody Loves Raymond, and this is tiresome I could probably type 60 more lines of shows.

oops, i had mentioned sports at 60p originally too.

and what about non-NTSC video cams, they do a real 24p.

and if 30p makes it easier to transfer worldlide then why does everyone in hollywood say the opposite?

a click of a button is easy for you to press but it results in either dropping ever 5th frame or the computer to sit there struggling to do all sorts of complex things which it might not do perfectly well.

well, probably in another few years it will start becoming quite rare to shoot film any TV on film, but I think they will still shoot 24fps native in digital though and not 30p or 60p, at least for quite the foreseeable future (and as I said, perhaps Lost has already switched over this past season to 24p videocams, not sure).

apparently there are a few comedies that switched over to 24p digital already from film relatively recently.

I haven’t ever heard anything about the production of the three shows you mention but everything else that has used digital to shoot that I know has used special native 24fps digital cameras so I’d be surprised if they were actually using 30p cams. The ones you mention do have tons of effects and a couple, at least, I believe are also on are slightly lower budget (as opposed to typical cost on say CBS/NBC/ABC/FOX) shooting network SciFi so they might have found it best to go to digital cams ASAP.

Just to be clear I never said they weren’t shooting 24p.

I prefer 24p myself but I find I can easily get that in post, which I do specifically because 24p video is not ideal for action/motion, so I get the clean footage in 30p and post it to 24p for the look I want unless I’m sure recording 24p will be fine.

Also, they may be still shooting a lot of TV shows you listed on film, but the post is all HD, which is where I run into it at times and assumed they were mastered on HD.

Californication is shot on HDCAM and they use a bit of 16mm that was shot with a Bolex for transitions/effect and on the title.

I’m familiar with ARRI and other film cameras, and I’m certain there were no film cameras on the sci fi sets I was on.

http://www.canonrumors.com/?s=Autofocus+Patent&x=0&y=0

pellicle mirror is also gateway to AF at high framerates for stills

changing the shutterspeed might make it less visible, but shutter speed has nothing to do with synchronization: if you set the shutter speed to 100 you would still get 30 fps = 30Hz, thus each at a different moment of the 50Hz power-cycle in PAL countries -> flicker especially with flourescent light sources.

So it is correct.

Guess I’ve been imagining the light flicker at times with my NTSC XLH1 here in the states at certain shutter speeds…

It happens in both 50Hz and 60Hz with the 5D2 depending on the lights used and whatever shutter speed the camera decides upon.

I’ve shot the 5D2 for testing and I will not buy one at this point. The GH1 Panny with no mirror to get in the way might be a better choice for HD quazi-SLR shooting until someone figures out decent Liveview focusing on SLR’s and manual control.

My local TV is PAL standard, but I’d rather the Canon 5D Mk 2 have it in 30P than 24P or 25P if I can only choose one. Technically speaking, the quality will be better if I were to convert 30P to 24 or 25P than the other way around. But obviously, all 3 will be great!

As the cliche goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

25p is important for PAL countries with 50Hz power.
Discharge lighting like fluorescent, HMI, sodium vapour, mercury vapour etc. can all flicker very badly.

In a studio situation it isn’t a problem as you can use flicker free ballasts and the like.

However for location shooting where there may be street lights or domestic fluorescent lighting etc. or if you are using practical lights in-shot it can be a show stopper.

Constant lighting like tungsten lights with a filament or DC powered lighting like carbon arcs or Lightning Strikes SoftSuns etc. do not flicker at normal shooting speeds. When shooting at high speeds, any AC powered lighting can flicker, even tungsten.

For example in countries with 50 Hz power, when you are shooting with a film camera at 24 fps, you use a 172.8 degree shutter, to get an exposure time of 1/50 th of a second.
If it wasn’t important. Then film cameras wouldn’t have a shutter setting of 172.8 degrees.

25p is also very important in PAL countries to make a standard definition version of your product. It is very difficult to convert 30p to 25p and get a nice, smooth result.
It’s important to have a standard definition version of your product because there are few domestic HD distribution formats. Bluray is about the only popular one and it isn’t that popular. Supplying HD for Broadcast is no problem obviously, as there is a dearth of good HD formats.

Previously many of the big episodic shows in the States were shot on film, however most of the shows are now shooting digital with either Panavision Genesis, Sony F35 or Sony F23 cameras. This season in particular there was a huge exodus to digital in LA.

24P is important because it looks very different to 30p.
If you don’t understand or don’t agree, you should study this more as it is one of the rudiments of digital image-making.

I can’t believe all these arguments! I’m a cameraman working in the uk, but I have shot in both ntsc(60hz) and pal(50hz) countries. It doesn’t matter if you are shooting film or video if you shoot at 25p in a ntsc(60hz) country you will very likely get flicker problems with lights, whether they are tungsten or florescent. This is because the refresh rate of the power supply is different from refresh rate of the camera. This is also true of shooting 30p in a pal(50hz) country for exactly the same reasons. Sometimes the flicker effect is subtle, sometimes not but it is 100% real! Sometimes you will hardly notice it on a small screen, but it will be very irritating on a big screen at the cinema! Of course, shooting exteriors lit by the sun will have no flicker problems whatever you do.

24p, 25p and 30p have slightly different looks but the difference is subtle, the main difference between the tv look and the cinema look is that is that traditionally tv (soaps, news, entertainment programs, cheap drama) has been shot interlace (50i or 60i) where as film and better quality video has been shot non-interlaced. In the case of film this has been 24 or 25 frames a second, or video 24p, 25p or 30p – meaning progressively scanned.

There is nothing inherently wrong with 30p, played backed it will still have that progressive or cinematic look but technically it will cause problems in europe and south america, both when shooting and in broadcast.

It is true that the flicker effect can sometimes be negated by careful use of the shutter, but this is not always possible and I personally want to use the shutter as creative tool not be forced to use it at a dictated setting just to stop flicker.

This camera needs 25p, not because of cinematic look or any of the many spurious reasons spread around the net, but because in a pal(50hz) country this is technically what it needs to be, and all other pal video cameras whether professional or consumer are.

the 50Hz issues exposed and solved :
flicker free shooting with the new firmware

http://www.vimeo.com/4991966

everything edited for pal countries is edited in 25fps so professionaly we want a camera that does that- simple. 30p is ok for filming the kids etc or web based…but 30p to 25p conversion is too problematic at moment.

I’m new here with canon or any other cameras, so I want an answer about is that ok if I make a movie with 25 Hz film and use it in analyzing program as a 50 Hz film.

Is that ok the concept that we can divide the film was taken with 25f camera to be 50f.

>> Technically speaking, the quality will be better if I were to convert 30P to 24 or 25P

Thats not true. Conversion from one frame rate to another is highly problematic and introduces blurring / artefacts. The older, simpler method that is still most widely used is a pulldown, such as a 3:2 pulldown. Its really nasty and essentially blurs frames together which introduces ghosting. Most NLEs still use this method.

The other method is to use intelligent retiming which interpolates through flow. This is very complex and slow and doesnt work in all circumstances. It can also introduce artefacts.

Thats why its important to shoot at the native rate you need. If the 5D2 shot at these rates, there’d be no discussion here.