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Messages - K-amps

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1411
EOS Bodies / Re: Price point of a 5Dmk2 replacement
« on: September 30, 2011, 12:06:41 PM »
Once APS-C sensors are good enough with low noise & high DR, I think we will see a shift from EF to EF-S lenses....

In the longer term, I believe the opposite will happen :) It seems reasonable that, in the future, the cost for producing sensors will go down more quickly than the cost for producing optics. When the optics becomes the dominant cost of a consumer camera (as indeed used to be the case not so long ago, and already is for the most expensive lenses), it will be cheaper to produce a big-sensor camera with simpler optics for the same IQ as a more compact camera with a smaller sensor. I already envision toy cameras with Nikon V1-like colour diversity and both house and lens entirely plastic, containing a full-frame sensor and producing better IQ than today's best compacts :)

Made the assertion with the cost of EF lenses, not the sensor  :)

1412
EOS Bodies / Re: Your wishlist for your next body...
« on: September 30, 2011, 10:00:37 AM »
If the 5Dmk3 has more than 24MP, it would discourage me from upgrading.

Yes it would.... but c'mon, you'd still get one  ;)

1413
EOS Bodies / Re: Price point of a 5Dmk2 replacement
« on: September 30, 2011, 09:57:39 AM »
If that's the case, why doesn't someone get out there and corner the market with a sub $2000 full frame camera ? If you're right and a less expensive smaller sensor camera is good enough to keep the lights on, then why is it that Olympus and Panasonic let standard 4/3 die, Pentax (APS-C and medium format only) were bought out, while the full frame models are still going strong ?

It seems to me we're talking about the same thing -- prices are driven by demand (and not the "demands" of forum posters)

Agreed: Its demand driven. To be specific...
 
Why do we care about FF? Why not have a  30x20mm sensor as a standard? Why are train tracks the width they are? Why are they the width of 2 horses thethered side by side?  Many things are a result of backward compatibility...

In this case, it boils down to the investment in 35mm Glass we all have.... not necessarily the true cost of the FF body. Canon (like any other business)  is cashing in on this hitched loyalty. It might also explain why the other formats are dropping off... they do not have enough people out there with 4/3 glass to use perhaps.

There seems to be enough demand for APS-C and FF for these formats to live for the time being. Once APS-C sensors are good enough with low noise & high DR, I think we will see a shift from EF to EF-S lenses.... but I Digress.

1414
Things are more complex according to me, as usual... If you are taking a picture of a riot in Damascus, composition and content are (partially) less important than sharpness, focus, density, saturation etc.
But if you are taking a picture of the wall of El Capitan in Yosemite, or of a highly detailed coleopter on a beautiful and colorful flower a slight off focus, a unwanted grain, or a less than sharp pixel can spoil the best of the talents...
In the present technological era, no part of the kit can be overlooked. You can be Michael Schumacher, but without a good car, any good driver with the best car will win hands down... Obviously is also true the reverse: no best car will win without a good driver...

The Camera is like the eye, the Photographer, like the brain.

One is very limited without the other...


1415
EOS Bodies / Re: Your wishlist for your next body...
« on: September 30, 2011, 08:04:22 AM »
Lots of good ideas posted already.

... Then I'd ask for better integration with tethered displays using whatever new gadgets come along, such as the next generation iPad and the Galaxy S2 HD smartphones.  Those gadget manufacturers will improve screen performance and post-processing power much faster than Canon can.   Even better if it could be fastened to some hardpoints on the camera, and work with a viewfinder image that wouldn't be out of place in medium or large format.  Then there's the opportunity to share the workload of image processing between the in-camera chips and the tethered devices.   Maybe do a lot of the post processing right there which usually happens on the PC afterwards.  Things like perspective control in software, attaching metadata, geotagging, adding commentary for shot logging, rough cuts or news editing to squirt out over 3G, etc...  all of those become a lot easier. 

+1 

Canon should release SDK's for integration to iOS/Android, so that solutions like Promote / remote liveview and other functionality is seamless with the mobile devices.

1416
EOS Bodies / Re: DxOMark posted it's A77 results
« on: September 29, 2011, 04:54:04 PM »

I just want to add that the NEX 5N picture is significantly cleaner than the 5D II picture but, the 5D really has more fine detail.

Exactly what I thought. NEX5n looks cleaner, less noise. But 5d2 is cleaner, on the bottle the "..EWERY" letters appear as that on the 5d3 but as "FWEBY" on the nEX5n.

Not sure if it's the IQ of the sensor or merely a more aggressive NR algorithm, this would explain both the cleaner but less clear rendition of the NEX5n

1417
EOS Bodies / Re: Your wishlist for your next body...
« on: September 29, 2011, 04:29:43 PM »
One simply thing. Aperture values blink on Canon cameras when light is too high or too low. I would like they would also have some kind of sound to alert about this. You should be able to configure this. I think that the sound of the cameras could be used to give them some functionalities.

For example, if the photo is overexposed and some part of the foto is completely white, sound alert. This way you can change the settings instead of taking some overexposed photos.

Talk about acoustic feedback to hawk eared subjects.... when I take pics of kids... it's hard enough to get them to focus without beeping sounds coming to them.

It should be a feature that could be configurable (volume, disable/enable it).
Sometimes you take a photo, i.e. a wedding and you overexpose the white dress. Maybe you take 3 or 4 photos until you check them and correct the exposure or the flash. It the camera could beep after taking the first photo you could realise of your problem and fix it.

If you don't want a camera full of beeps, then disable it. Vibration could be another way to do this.

I agree with you in principle... though for a given shoot (lets say outdoors) some areas will always get burnt in sunlight with a frame with good DR, so one might disable the constant notifications and then forget to put it on for the wedding pic...   ;)  The vibration is also an interesting option , though adding weight/cost and battery drain (Canon will opt for a beeper probably)...  perhaps might be implemented in a 1D body.

1418
......Owning more expensive equipment will help you with better pictures, but only if you understand it to the maximum. ......

I agree with the first part, but not the latter part.

Give a novice a 300D with kit lens (55-250 or 75-300 III) and ask him to use Auto mode/P mode (like P&S) and ask him to take a portrait at 100mm. Using a tripod and natural light coming from a window.

Give the same guy a 7D and a 100mm f2 or f2.8 with the camera on the same tripod and all he has to do is pull the trigger in auto mode.

Which one will be better?

Did he need to understand it to the maximum? All he did was pull the trigger.

Even for complete noobs, better gear will make a difference... some difference  :)

1420

I once ran into someone who bought a 7D + 85mm f/1.2 L + 580EX II as his FIRST ever kit. He had absolutely no idea what he was doing and took a lot of stuff that more experienced photog's could take with an iPhone.

I would only go as far as saying the equipment should match the skill level of the user. Both are equally important.

I agree both are important:

But unless this guy took a loan out from his kid's college fund, I find nothing wrong in his choice or his purchase. Looks like he did his research, zoned in on a prime lens (most noobs like me would try and get max coverage from 15mm to 400mmm regardless of the speed of the lenses...) that is fast and sharp.

Why should he be asked to buy a rebel kit lens when all of us would not... The only wrong thing I can see is if he thinks he can shoot like an Art or Ansel or any great guys on this forum without learning how to shoot.

I gave my 350d and kit lens to my 12 year old daughter trying to get her into this wonderful hobby... She might take 100 pics and have 10 turn out really great... but the limitations of the kit lens then comes into play... if she had better gear, those could have been even better....

I just got my first L lens a month ago... my skills are still the same as a month ago, but my successful rate has gone up significantly. For example: Pictures with L lens dont burn out highlights as much as kit lens do, I don't know why but no one told me this would be one reason to get an L lens...

I am not saying gear is more important than skills, but gear WILL make a difference, so kudos to that guy to get decent gear.

1421
EOS Bodies / Re: Your wishlist for your next body...
« on: September 29, 2011, 09:39:57 AM »
One simply thing. Aperture values blink on Canon cameras when light is too high or too low. I would like they would also have some kind of sound to alert about this. You should be able to configure this. I think that the sound of the cameras could be used to give them some functionalities.

For example, if the photo is overexposed and some part of the foto is completely white, sound alert. This way you can change the settings instead of taking some overexposed photos.

Talk about acoustic feedback to hawk eared subjects.... when I take pics of kids... it's hard enough to get them to focus without beeping sounds coming to them.

1422
EOS Bodies / Re: Price point of a 5Dmk2 replacement
« on: September 29, 2011, 09:36:07 AM »
My calculation is: $300 difference between FF and APS-C, $300 for larger prism, larger shutter, lager mirror, larger body (compared to 7D). Assuming that the 5DIII have all the features of 7D then, the 5DIII should be  $600 above 7D. The current 5DII have less feature than the 7D and sells about $1000 above the 7D. Therefore the 5DII is over priced. Canon should be able to sell the 5DIII at about $2200. Since 5dIII is a FF, Canon may price it at $2800 for deeper profit.

Canon have manufacturing costs (per body produced) but they also have fixed R&D costs. How do they distribute those between the different models ? For example, if the R&D costs average $200 per camera sold, does that mean that entry level powershots "should" cost $200 plus manufacturing costs plus markup ? If you don't want to pay for the R&D, then why are we discussing prices of a model that doesn't even exist yet ? The way it ultimately works is that the way those costs are distributed among their models depends on relative supply and demand for the different models. Higher end models (those where a price increase doesn't hurt sales as much) are likely to cover more of these costs.

In terms of manufacturing costs alone -- Sony has already sold a full frame camera for $2000 (the A850). So it is likely that it is possible to get full frame cameras on the shelves for $2000 a piece with 0 marginal cost per unit  to the manufacturer.

But pricing does not depend on marginal production costs alone.  It depends partly on fixed costs and partly  on supply and demand economics (and these interact as fixed costs are likely to be distributed based on demand). The 5D Mark I has similar full frame hardware to the 5D Mark II, yet it is "underpriced" at $1000. The reason is that there is limited demand for an older model.

A lot of times, people setting the prices are not rocket scientists (surprise surprise). They do not create sophisticated price elasticity models...  I implement financial package (ERP) applications in Fortune 500 companies, and it amazes me how rudimentary their cost allocation models are. Most of the time, R&D is considered a period cost and allocated based as a percentage of selling price or product cost, then a margin is added on top of that.

If one went purely with R&D allocation, it would not inflate the prices of the higher end models as much, what does inflate those costs is the % of Mark-up tacked on. Herein comes the art of pricing, the mark-up.

 A product manager for lets say a rebel line will work on what he has to work with given his product range and not worry about pricing for the pro series, he will have sales targets (the smarter companies will have profitability targets): These Targets at times are not always set to maximize profitability, but at times are set to mantain market share and customer base till the next model comes along. The real money is made from the higher margin products, therefore for consumers, the higher end models do "rightly" seem over priced, and they are.

I am not sure if the FF's prism is 40% larger that it costs 40% more as well... the cost of material is negligible in this case, the cost over overhead would be about the same, the cost of labor might be the same or even more for the smaller prism (depending how it is manufactured). But I do get that the yields on the sensors follow a different set of rules.

A $500-600 differential between a 7D to 5D class camera (other things being the same) might be justified, the rest is fluff and mark-up!



1423
EOS Bodies / Re: Price point of a 5Dmk2 replacement
« on: September 28, 2011, 10:26:18 AM »

.....so I would think it would cost Canon to about $400 a piece, if that, to make it.....



Looks like I was very close in my estimates:

http://www.naturescapes.net/docs/index.php/category-technical/223-the-economics-of-digital-photo-sensors


Thanks for sharing.

1424
EOS Bodies / Re: No 5D Mark III on Novemeber 3 [CR2]
« on: September 27, 2011, 01:21:51 PM »

Back to the more interesting rumor on 5Dmk2 replacement, there is no way we would find out if there is one coming. The moment is it actually known when a replacement is coming, virtually all 5dmk2 sales will stop, except those buyers with no interest in cameras which, lets face it, if your spending $$$$$ on 5dmk2 + bits, your generally going to research the internet a bit (or for most of us, a hell of a lot, infact WAy to much)

This is a very strange time given the devastation earlier this year to stock and manufacturing plants. Its not long ago they only just got back up to full production. So we know before July/Aug there was no stock of the 5Dmk2, so there was no stock pile to try and reduce. We are in September and there are price cuts, so this isnt to shift a massive stock pile of 5Dmk2's.
So obviously they are making 5dmk2 again, if they announces a replacement now, available for Feb 2012, who do you think is going to buy a 5dmk2? Thats right, the people i mentioned above and there arnt many of them at this price point.


How about the camera-savvy people who can't afford the 5D ii at its current price range, ( so of course can't afford the 5Diii when its released)  but are hoping to snap it up at a bargain price when the 5Diii is announced?!

Get a 5d classic. It still has excellent image quality. One will run you about $900-$1200 on feebay depending on condition, use it for a few months, then sell it when the 5d3 comes... and not lose more than $50-100 Thats the price of a 1 day rental! Why wait?

1425
Canon General / Re: Improving composition - photography skills
« on: September 27, 2011, 12:38:39 PM »
Firstly thank you all for the references and tips.  will need time to digest the materials mentioned here.

Let me share 2 specific challenges I face with my photos:

1) Exposure - with digital - even a slight brightness often "kills" the colors by "blowing them out". When I shoot outdoors (I live in a very sunny country) I find it very hard to set exposure - as "normal" exposure often is much to bright and colorless, if I start to underexpose - I get dark spots in the frame? Any tips on outdoor shots in bright light ?

I am looking again... and love em more...  :) Did you do something for lighting? I don't see facial shadows caused by a single point source of light (sun)... did you compensate with flash?

"Understanding Exposure" by Bryan Peterson discusses metering in some depth. The first step if you are taking pictures of a scene with really bright highlights is to make sure that you are metering the primary subject and how to meter when photographing challenging scenes.

A quick summary: the way Peterson likes to do it is put the camera on manual and fill most of the frame with whatever he wants to use as his point of reference and manually set the exposure, then recompose. Alternatively one can use AE lock combined with shutter/aperture priority.

Quote
2) Portraits. Everyone talks about using a small f/stop >=2.8 to produce background blur (bokeh) and give the shot a nice affect. However I find - that f stops 2.8 and smaller - can easily produce blurry shots as the smallest movement of the subject (not to mention a group shot where people are not all the same distance from you) causes blur. I found that nothing ruins a nice portrait more then a blurry kind of picture (unless this was intended for some artistic purpose)
What is the best F/stop for portraits ? What about if you use a flash ?

The best F stop depends -- depth of field varies with subject distance. If you're close to minimum focus distance, you could need a much narrower aperture than f/2.8 to avoid "foreground blur".  If you're taking a full body portrait with a 50mm lens on a crop, subject movement will not throw them out of focus (assuming you focused correctly). See online depth of field calculators.

For portraits, there is no one best F stop, but if you go with a narrow aperture, you will need a more cooperative background.

Flash can be used as necessary to provide enough light. Ideally, you choose the F stop based on depth of field preference. As you've probably observed already, for group shots you often need more depth of field, especially if the subjects aren't conveniently lined up in the plane of focus. A flash really helps for these because then you don't need to stretch the aperture to get enough light, instead you can close it to get enough depth of field.

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