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Messages - Meh

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526
Canon General / Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« on: November 08, 2011, 07:01:09 PM »
@hjulenissen

See now there you go... I made a simple statement of fact that SNR goes up with signal level and that is too simplistic and you want to get into "image quality" which I specifically wanted to avoid because here we go.  I call a NR reduction algorithm "clever mathematics" but you want to say it's not "clever mathematics"... whether it's clever or not clever is a matter of opinion I guess but I think it's at least a little bit clever.  Can you give me that one?

You're obviously knowledgeable about this topic.   Me too.  Should we compare "credentials"?   :D   Honestly, I don't want to offend you or anyone else.  Someone was offended because I got smited... YES! Probably for starting this so I may deserve it :-[

Many of your points are technically sound.  Sure, counting photons in 4 bins and adding vs. counting in 1 bin is the same total number of photons.  But there will be less signal (fill factor <1) and more shot noise and read noise and therefore lower SNR and DR and you've agreed the accuracy of counting those photons is not as accurate if only as a technical matter.   If the SNR is high enough across the entire image then the whole argument is moot but if not you can go ahead and apply a NR algorithm to try and improve the image quality.

I do agree that the more data you have to work with the better NR algorithms will work.  The question would be where is the sweetspot above which the additional noise due to smaller pixels outpaces the improved application of the NR algorithm.

And why is the DR in the Nikon D7000 16MP sensor (Sony) so high?  If you look up the full-well capacity on sensorgen.info (ooops, that could be another debate) you will see it's very high... probably because they improved the fill factor (i.e. a larger photosite in each pixel, the size of the photosite matters).  They also got the noise down in that sensor.  Result = large DR of 14.   Now look at the Sony A77 (24MP) presumably using at least the same tech as the D7000 sensor and you'll see the full-well is much lower and therefore the DR is only 12.2 so the evidence suggests again that photosite size matters at least to the technical characteristics (again I'm trying to leave "image quality" alone).

Anyway, I apologize to everyone, their families, their friends, and the whole world for starting this.

-1 to myself







527
Canon General / Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« on: November 08, 2011, 04:31:21 PM »
Some people state that they hope that Canon will stop increases in the number of sensels, or even reverse it. I want to know if their claims have a good, sound reasoning behind it, or if it is folklore....

Yes there is good sound reasoning based in physics and mathematics.  The more signal you have in a given measurement the higher will be the SNR.

Yes I am aware the topic of larger pixels is highly debated hence my attempt at making a precise statement about the technical measurements rather than "image quality".   Yes, under some ideal conditions a higher resolution measurement of a signal and some clever mathematics can result in a signal that is equal and sometimes superior if resolution was a limiting factor.  However, those conditions are not present in digital images where there is low signal levels such as shadow areas or in any low-light shooting.  NR software can only improve images so much.

Sweetspot... how did he define that?  And what did he mean by highest offered resolution.  The spatial resolution of a typical P&S scaled up to FF is something like 200MP yet that is not offered, why?  The bottom line is that there are trade-offs in optical systems and image sensors.

Fair enough... marketing cannot be trusted on its face.   But to say they could save costs by using an archaic process I think is a stretch and marketing itself is a huge part of the reason for offering increasing megapixels... it sells more cameras and perhaps with the current limit of technology they already went a little past the sweetspot at say 24MP APS-C.

Can you further explain your comment about "analog amplification ISO".

528
EOS Bodies / Re: 5DIII will come
« on: November 08, 2011, 03:32:04 PM »
Only problem was no timescale was given.

That's kinda important in a prediction.

529
Canon General / Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« on: November 08, 2011, 03:27:33 PM »
Those of you interested in a 7D with lower MP, why not just shoot your 7D on M instead of L?

Not the same thing.

530
Canon General / Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« on: November 08, 2011, 03:23:02 PM »
To those craving for a 7D with fewer/larger sensels:
Do you have any sources that supports your assertion that a "7Dmk2" at 14MP could have better total IQ than a "7Dmk2" at 22MP?

My predictions for 7Dmk2:
-Slight increase in resolution (20-22MP)
-Improved LV/video contrast AF
-Improved DR at low ISO (catching up with the Sony sensor used in Nikon D7000)
-The refreshed 1DX UI
-Ditching Compact Flash

My wishlist for 7Dmk2:
-More advanced MFA
-True raw histogram with guidance for ETTR
-More relevant exposure bracketing options (larger spread, >3 brackets)
-In-camera time-lapse functionality (flexible timer)
-Full sensor readout/scaling for video (less aliasing)
-1080p60
-Ability to zoom the lcd view while recording video (for manual focusing)

There are no sources to support any assertion about a 7D2 because a 7D2 doesn't exist.

In general, all other things being equal, larger photosites are advantageous as they will have a larger SNR and larger DR (technical measure of DR... full-well/noise floor... I don't want to start the usual debate again).   Canon would appear to have admitted this now with the 1DX and Nikon certainly has been on that boat for years.

Improved DR and lower noise is almost a given for all next gen sensors a la the Sony sensors and the claims for the 1DX sensor would indicate Canon has made tech advances as well.

I hope you're wrong about ditching CF in a 7D2 but an easy thing to deal with.  SD is catching up in speed these days and if they add dual SD rather than single CF that would be a positive.

531
EOS Bodies / Re: Final shopping list for tomorrow..
« on: November 08, 2011, 01:40:05 PM »
As you saw from that post, I just recently replaced my Manfrotto QR plates (they use their own designs) with an AS-type system.  In fact, today I sold my set of Manfrotto clamps, RC2 plates, and BlackRapid FastenR-T1's.

Are you still using the Manfrotto ball head (468MG) or will you be swapping that out for a Kirk or RRS?   I think my new system of choosing gear will be to save myself hours of painstaking deliberation and just buy what you buy  ;D

LOL. I'm still using the 468MG, I just put a Wimberley C-12 clamp on it. I had to replace the monopod tilt head, since the Manfrotto 234RC clamp is built-in. I got a 234 instead, and put another C-12 on that.

Why the Wimberly?  Does that or say a Kirk QRC-3 screw right onto the 468MG head?

532
Software & Accessories / Re: Neck strap alternatives
« on: November 08, 2011, 12:41:50 PM »
As im having to get a new camera strap, i thought id add this info here...

I had a sun sniper "the one" rated to 2.5kg. As my combo now weighs nearly 2.3kg thought it was time to get a higher rated strap.
The sun sniper pro is rated to 5kg, not bad, but i thought id check the black rapid rs7. Interestingly theres no info anywhere (that i can see) about loading. Which is strange as its pretty fundamental as to what the thing is for.

So emailed customer services at Black Rapid, and got a reply.
"On all of our straps, our hard ware is rated at 300 lbs"

Now i know thier first language isnt English, but unless my basic maths is failing me, thats about 136kg or a very large human.

They said "hardware" so they might only be referring to the metal caribiner and fasteners.  I'm more surprised by the 2.5-5kg rating of the Sunsniper.  That's not much, I think a couple strands of dental floss could hold that.  A large human could easily hang from even a cheap caribiner, a solid metal d-ring, or a nylon strap.... ok I wouldn't go mountain climbing with the little one on the Blackrapid straps and it probably wouldn't withstand the impact force a falling mass but I bet a static mass of over a 100kg could hang from it.

533
Canon General / Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« on: November 08, 2011, 12:33:21 PM »
7D2 will almost definitely hve a new sensor, what it is i don't know. Either 18MP with a lot higher IQ than currently (larger pixels a la 1dx), or the same IQ-per-pixel as the current 7D with more of them (keeping pixel-size the same and fitting more in the same space). If it's 24mp or more current-7D-owners might upgrade, but either option would be a nice upgrade for 60D/xxxD-owners. Keep the rest of the features the same, there's nothing wrong with it.

If you're using "pixel" to mean "photosite" then that should be possible by now.  To differentiate the two terms, pixel usually means the entire area on the sensor occupied for each pixel of resolution so that can not be made larger when keeping the same 18MP resolution.  The photosite which is a portion, usually less than 50%, of the area occupied for each pixel can certainly be made larger if tech as advanced and the electronics that sit beside each photosite can now be made smaller.

534
Canon General / Re: G-Next: must be larger sensor
« on: November 08, 2011, 12:24:10 PM »
I can pay $600 for a Sony NEX-5 with APS-C sensor including a kit lens.  (599.99 with rebate and free shipping -- B&H 11/08/11).

$600 is the usual price point for the G-series camera, roughly.   For $600, do I want a 1/1.7 camera when I can get a slightly larger but still compact full aps-c camera for the same price?   Tough sell.

To compete effectively, I think the G-series has got to be larger sensor, hopefully full APS-C, even if it is still not an interchangeable lens camera.   I wouldn't be surprised to see the G-"Next" as non-interchangeable APS-C this spring, (hopefully with a nice reasonably fast 24-1nn IS lens) and the interchangeable lens non-mirror system at the end of the summer.   Hopefully all APS-C.

Another poster in this thread speculated that Canon is stupid.  ...I don't think Canon is stupid.   The question is, does Canon think we are stupid?   I don't think so.   That Canon skipped producing a G13 with a 1/1.7 sensor suggests that Canon respects the intelligence of its customers.

Now another major camera company producing a small-sensor interchangeable lens non-mirror camera with a tiny sensor and expecting us to buy it because of cute ads with Ashton Kutchner.... not so much.

Good call... the next G with a larger sensor would be sweet (even if not all the way up to APS-C) would really re-position it in the market and make the larger size over the S95/100 more worthwhile.

Ashton Kutcher is cool, funny, handsome, charismatic... but the whole Nikon thing... that's just a big negative!

535
Canon General / Re: Dynamic Range - Digital sensors
« on: November 08, 2011, 12:14:43 PM »
Where does this notion that film has more DR than digital sensors come from?  Ken Rockwell who only shoots jpeg?

Checkout the Zacuto clips on youtube of them comparing the video output of the 1D4/5D2/7D with that of Kodak film. The kodak film has 14.2 & 14.5 stops of DR whereas the 5D has 11.2 but usable is probably closer to 10. Episode 1 of the Great Shootout of 2011 covers DR.

Now I don't know if all film has the same DR as the Kodak film used in that "shootout" but it is a place to start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-hqzw5MEa8&feature=channel_video_title

that kodak is motion picture film...not photography film ;)
but still, look at the DR of it.

Right.  My understanding (albeit limited and prone to being wrong!) is that motion picture film is designed differently and optimized for things like DR rather than resolution which is far less important when there's motion... for example in digital video 1080p (2 megapixel) is high-res and 4k (~9 megapixel) is super-high-res.  The transfer functions used in the movie-land are also different.  Consider also that the DSLR video is an h.264 output.

536
EOS Bodies / Re: Final shopping list for tomorrow..
« on: November 08, 2011, 11:13:48 AM »
As you saw from that post, I just recently replaced my Manfrotto QR plates (they use their own designs) with an AS-type system.  In fact, today I sold my set of Manfrotto clamps, RC2 plates, and BlackRapid FastenR-T1's.

Are you still using the Manfrotto ball head (468MG) or will you be swapping that out for a Kirk or RRS?   I think my new system of choosing gear will be to save myself hours of painstaking deliberation and just buy what you buy  ;D

537
Canon General / Re: Dynamic Range - Digital sensors
« on: November 08, 2011, 10:51:18 AM »
Where does this notion that film has more DR than digital sensors come from?  Ken Rockwell who only shoots jpeg?

It might have been true 10 years ago for some mass market sensors but even then it wasn't significantly more.   Digital sensors produced anytime in the past 5 years have more DR than film.   The response curves are different and the fall off into highlights and shadows is different and to some it's less "pleasing" with digital but digital technically has more DR, which is why you hear talk of "useable DR".   

However, if you're looking at jpegs it's a different story because they are only 8-bit files so a transfer function has to be applied to fit 4096 luminance levels (14-bit) into only 256 luminance levels and highlights and shadows are typically where there is more compression applied.   Keep in mind that LCD displays and prints have much less DR than the original RAW files or film.

I'm not an expert in this and not the best at explaining it so if anyone has any corrections or additional details feel free to correct me.

538
Canon General / Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« on: November 07, 2011, 11:07:19 PM »
If Canon was smart they would outfit the 7Dii with a sensor with the same philosophy as the 1Dx... lower mp count with larger pixels!  ;D

If Canon was smart?  I just checked, they are.  Market cap is $53B, annual revenue $47B, annual income about $8B, $11B in cash, and most important of all... this site has 13,840 members who just can't get enough of Canon cameras!   :P   But seriously, I'm with gmrza, I think they'll stick to 18MP in the APS-C line and work on improving noise and DR just a touch.

539
EOS Bodies / Re: Max CF Card size that can be used in the 5D2?
« on: November 07, 2011, 10:08:24 PM »
I ran some tests this evening, and in a day or two I'll tabulate and post the results.  But preliminarily, a 90 MB/s cards does result in a slight performance boost on the 5DII compared to 60 MB/s cards (roughly, shaves a second off the write speed following a 3 second burst, and allows a few more frames during 20 s of continuous shooting).

Consistent with my anecdotal observations with my 7D that I mentioned earlier in this thread.  Do you have a 200x card available to measure the jump in performance compared to 400x cards?

540
EOS Bodies / Re: Video Moire/Aliasing!?
« on: November 07, 2011, 01:55:10 PM »
@jasonmillard81... looking back over your posts from the previous threads along with the most recent posts I'm wondering if for your mostly video shooting that upgrading to a higher-end camcorder wouldn't be the better choice over a DSLR or GH-2.  For example, the Sony NEXVG10 has a larger sensor and longer lenses that would give you more control of DoF and might be easier to use than a DSLR form factor.

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