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Messages - Aglet

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EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 70D features vs 60D
« on: September 05, 2013, 01:15:31 AM »
70D has a bit better sensor performance than the 60D, it's pattern noise is negligible compared to both 60D

Are there any reviews on this yet? Of course the 70d is the better camera as it should be, but the 60d pattern noise was already lower than 7d and probably even 5d2 - and the one "lens cap" shot from 70d still showed the pattern, so I wonder if there's really any noticeable improvement.

don't know if there's any big site review yet, there's evaluation of it and I put up the samples in another thread here days ago.
started in the rumors section, unfortunately  OOPS/

70D's not perfect, but it's the best crop sensor from Canon since the 40D from what I can tell.  It's way less bandy than my 60D at lower ISOs.  It did seem to throw up a lot of extra noise with the main display ON tho.

EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 70D features vs 60D
« on: September 04, 2013, 09:15:37 PM »
besides everything else, 70D has a bit better sensor performance than the 60D, it's pattern noise is negligible compared to both 60D and 5d2.  5d2 IQ is only marginally better, if any, and, having shot with a (really bad example of a) 5d2, i'd opt for the 70D for better IQ and a ton of extra and even useful features.

Third Party Manufacturers / Re: I jumped ship...
« on: September 04, 2013, 09:05:02 PM »
I got a Fuji X-E1 on Friday and played with it over the weekend. I am really impressed. This is going to be my new travel camera for sure!

one of those, or possibly the non-optical VF cheaper model, is on my wish list yet too.

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon vs Nikon at DxOMark
« on: September 04, 2013, 09:02:54 PM »
DxO reports what they measure, they're not really interpreting it for you.  Same lens can perform quite differently on different model bodies of same brand, that's what they're all about measuring.

only problem I have with them is their vague "scoring" which, in the case of lenses, actually includes a factor for the sensor noise of the camera it's mounting on?!?... WTH?!?

Meanwhile, convert your first lens link to a pair of 12MP cameras of the same era (D300s and 450D) and the comparison is very close.  FWIW.

Third Party Manufacturers / Re: I jumped ship...
« on: September 04, 2013, 04:50:54 AM »
So, those of you who have used both systems do you guys feel that Nikon cameras are designed and built keeping a smaller hand size as the target compared to comparable Canon cameras? I used the Nikon cameras of two of my friends (one D80 and the other was probably D90 or D7000) and found the hand grip feeling smaller/thinner than my 40D and 50D....... any opinion?

I've never picked up a Canon body that didn't feel OK to hold & use.
OTOH, I positively HATE the feel of Nikon's D7000 series and the D600 - I find them so unpleasant I skipped buying the economical D600 and grabbed another D800 instead.  Those slightly smaller/thinner grips give my hand a cramp in very short time where I can carry a d800 or smaller D5100 around for hours w-o a strap quite easily, even with large glass attached.

D800 is a larger body, my hands are small to mid-sized and the D800 is a very comfortable camera for me to use.
Also, the D5000 series cameras are very comfortable for me despite the small Rebel-ish size.  The proportioning and overall balance are more pleasant than the d7000/600 IMO.  All highly subjective, of course.

D90 is not bad for me but don't like it as much as d800's fit.

I'm still waiting to see if there's a high end cropper coming (D400 ?) to replace the aged D300/s but concerned it might feel too much like the 7000 series.  That will also be competing against a possible 7D Mk II for my uses.
The 7D was a really nice camera to use in all respects except, for me, it's IQ was inadequate for some of the shots I wanted it for.  I'm hoping 7D2 will continue the excellence and provide improved noise levels; even the 70D would be adequate but I won't be needing it until next summer so can wait.

More on ergos, I often shoot with a Pentax K52s, great little camera, feels lovely in my hand.
K-30 has that annoyingly deeper, thinner grip, not too unlike D7x00.  But not quite so bad that I didn't buy the K30... for $450 for a NIB camera with its capabilities I could put up with a bit of discomfort for the little time I'll be carrying it. :)

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon Leads in Sensor Tech
« on: September 04, 2013, 04:33:57 AM »
Over the next few days we may see a what the competition's gonna be offering to tempt our wallets.
Oly's new EM1 looks like a deliciously compact little MFT that could be even sweeter than the EM-5.
Sony may be courting phone-camera users with real optics add-ons.
Pentax is rumored to have some new toys for us too.
Fuji's likely up to something interesting again.

All these are very innovative but likely still to remain niche players compared to the Canon Juggernaut.. who may be finally intro'ing improved M models.  Almost seems like an anti-climactic finish if Canon doesn't have something meatier for a press release.

2013 is SUCH an interesting year for photo-tech.

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« on: September 03, 2013, 02:37:53 PM »
These are all largely pointless debates...Nikon vs. Canon color depth bits, minute 1-2% differences in SNR, etc.

I agree with pretty much everything you've stated but the SNR differences are much greater than 1-2%.  They may be that at the highlites end but SNR difference is actually huge where it matters in post, on the dark end of the curve.
there's a good 2-4 stops difference between Canon and …everybody else at 0db SNR.

Third Party Manufacturers / Re: I jumped ship...
« on: September 03, 2013, 02:14:15 PM »
1. The DR is better, but not as much as I expected.
if your workflow didn't change, you wouldn't notice much difference
2. I couldn't stand the ergos, it drove me nuts with the ISO button not being as fast to change as on canon.
ergos are individual taste, being used to Canon after so many years I still have a slight pref for how they do some things but Nikon's control placement is more consistent from model to model than Canon's regular randomizing of button positions

ISO's actually much faster to adj on d800, if you'd have assigned it to a control wheel
3. The AF with primes wasnt as good as my mk3s. Yes, the left AF point on the d800 was slooooow.
depends on the lens, Nik's ultrasonic motors do seem to be slower
my d800s have no left AF weakness

4. Flash exposure was very nice, but I missed my RT. :/
5. Overall, it wasnt too bad but I prefer my canon.
good on you for at least giving it a try
If you do so again, you might get more out of the experience.
Maybe try it in more challenging conditions.

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« on: September 01, 2013, 02:21:10 PM »
What ISO were these outdoor crowd shots taken at?
ISO 100.


Photographically (is there such a word!) no matter what camera I was using I wouldn’t have used 100 for that type of picture, what’s the advantage?

In the case of Canon's stripey noise, when practical, one of the work-arounds to reducing the pattern noise is to use higher ISO.  Then the greater incidence of random noise can be used to obscure FPN to some extent and NR software can actually do a decent job of recovery.
No, not what you want to hear but that's a method I used sometimes while I had my PoS 5d2.
But,if you look at the DR curves for Canon's sensors, you'll see that total DR is pretty flat from 100 to 800+ on most models and only the SNR drops.
The real solution, other than waiting for Canon to improve their sensor tech, is to change or add other gear to your kit.
I've spent a pile on Nikon and Pentax and have nuthin to gripe about now unless I go back and look at the lousy raw files from my 5d2, 7d or occasionally my 60d.
You're also wasting your efforts trying to convince any of the fanboys here that they should expect more from their Canon gear; they're content to learn to live with the limitations.
Some of us expect better and hope Canon will deliver, they still do make enjoyable gear to use and great lenses..(for the most part)
6D and now the 70D are on track for improving IQ in these areas.  The future may be better.

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« on: September 01, 2013, 01:03:54 AM »
Another one of those images "underexposed by 4 stops and pushed back". The highlights are already blown and the shadows are noisy as hell. Click on the image below.

I know, I know, I can hide the evidence. 75% luminance NR, and the noise is gone, well, most of it.

That IS a bit noisy.
I haven't paid attention to this place for a while, what are you shooting with?
What ISO were these outdoor crowd shots taken at?

And, if you think THIS is bad..
I loathed my early model 5d2 at times for how noisy it was - so I sold it.
The day I sold it, I quickly shot some 1 EV steps of smooth gray background at 100 ISO in studio.
Pushing up shades lower than metered 0 EV is an easy way to show noise.
BUT - I took a +3 EV shot, lowered it 2 EV and, if you enhance the contrast, can STILL see FPN!
I can see FPN at 0 EV, I can see FPN at EVERY EV if I move the region back to near 0 EV (even using DPP)

If there were smooth tones anywhere near midtone in an image it was possible to find V & H patterns unless using a lot of NR which then smeared luminance details and made it pointless.  At least the heaps of chroma noise could be dealt with.

FWIW, IMO, my 5d2 was a PoS! most disappointing camera I've ever owned, still managed some great shots with it, nonetheless.  Can mask some of the noise when printing large by using rough or textured papers or canvas.
I could likely tolerate a 6D or 70D, they've improved enough.

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D black-cap tests
« on: August 31, 2013, 05:07:43 PM »
So beside the sensor and all the discussions about it, you've got it in your hand, is it a good body, better than the 7D ? can you post some photos there please :

Sorry, I don't have the 70D.  Nor am I likely to any time soon as I have no immediate need for it.
I'm waiting to see how the 7D2 and the D400 shake out in the next year. (Kind of hoping the 7d2 will do what I want, fewer lenses to convert saves me money)

I think it's a "good enough" body, similar to the 60D.
I found most aspects of it agreeable, I would buy it if I were in the market for such a camera.  Lots of great features and now, finally, pretty much free of the worst kinds of pattern noise problems. (YMMV)

I'd say 70D's IQ will be better than the 7D's in those circumstances where higher DR scenes may prompt the user to lift dark areas. 7D is certainly a more solid and rugged feeling body.
At price points not too different right now, I'd chose the 70D for better IQ, the 7D for slightly more speed and a more robust body.

This is good. Thank you for doing this.

You're welcome. :)
I know there are some of us who get something useful from this kind of information.

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D black-cap tests
« on: August 31, 2013, 04:20:38 PM »
These are full size crops from the +4EV push of the 70D raw files (via Adobe DNG converter and ACR as per my standard test method)

There are 6 samples here and I've organized them as follows:


100 ISO - Main LCD was ON
100 ISO
200 ISO
400 ISO (bottom left corner)
800 ISO
1600 ISO (bottom right corner)

edit:  Happily (?) we see none of the vertical banding that's plagued many of Canon's recent sensors!

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« on: August 31, 2013, 04:16:10 PM »
I've finally posted a screenshot of the pushed ISO levels from 100 to 12,800.

70D's looking better than previous generations.

Will add full-size crops later.
what is looking better? visual results? noise reduction, less banding  etc etc

less banding.  Overall average noise levels are not much improved but there's now more randomness and less structure to the noise so it should be less objectionable than previous recent generations of Canon's crop sensors. This kind of noise is more readily handled by NR software and anyone having to lift dark areas should not be bothered by banding as badly as before.

100% crops are going up in a minute.

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« on: August 31, 2013, 03:52:41 PM »
I've finally posted a screenshot of the pushed ISO levels from 100 to 12,800.

70D's looking better than previous generations.

Will add full-size crops later.

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D black-cap tests - now with visuals
« on: August 31, 2013, 03:49:58 PM »
OK, finally took the time to put together the full stop ISO shots and bash them into a presentable form adequate for this purpose.
Shots are raw files taken at 1/200s, f/16, DLWB, all in-camera NR, ALO, and other features turned OFF.
Main LCD display is also set to OFF, except see difference it made when I forgot it ON in the first image.

Processing is done with my ACR standard of +4EV to bring the noise patterns up where you can really see them.

This camera's output at low ISO levels is a good bit cleaner with less banding than previous crop sensors like the 18MP one that debuted in the 7D and 60D.

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