April 21, 2014, 04:48:01 AM

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Messages - awinphoto

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16
Agree to disagree on what?  Thats their rules on their website about qualifying candidates...  dont shoot the messenger...  They can do what they want to do, but they need to make their minds up either way and either enforce or change the rules and open it up to practically anyone with a cool 10k in disposable income...

We will agree to disagree on whether there is ambuity in their guidelines.

I don't care to shoot the messenger nor am I trying. The problem is, I never asked for the messenger to bring me a message about what it is that I'm doing. You, however have decided that it is necessary to bring all of us your message. We can all read and write which is quite evident if you have been a part of this thread.

And no, they do not NEED to make up their minds. YOU feel they need to. They do not NEED to enforce anything. Again, YOU feel they need to. They can continue to do exactly as they are now and you will either continue playing the game or you won't. Either way, it is THEIR business and they are running it how THEY see fit. If they wanted to exclude people in a more stringent fashion, they could and would do so. They haven't. As such, your sub-group of consumers appears to be the only one with a problem.

okay... since you seem to defy logic, lets look at another situation...  immigration... there are very strict and specific rules on what is and is not legal immigration and who can and cannot be a US Citizen.  Everyone can CLEARLY see that illegal immigration is a problem.  No one is denying that.  You have to have your head in the sand to not see that issue.  Now, the left wing of the aisle is saying that those who are here should still stay here even though they broke rules and immigrated regardless, and the right side of the aisle is saying they should leave or pay higher fee's and other requirements to stay... Clearly the system is broken or they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. 

Like this, they had the rules, and people with your mind set SAW that requirement of Full Time Professional Photographer or Image Maker and decided, eh, canon will NEVER know if I try to pull the wool over their eyes...  Those rules dont apply to me, and apply anyways.  You get accepted and now you feel entitled to the program even though the rules are clearly flawed and broken.  Now you are saying, that's OK, they NEED me dang it, they NEED my money...  Keep me in your system and i'll buy another camera...  All the pro's who thise program is meant for are selfish for wanting this to be exclusive.  If you really think their is nothing wrong with your thinking of the rules and how you apply to THEIR rules, then i'm not the one with the problem. 

PS., I'M not saying your not of a professional level or quality... that's not for me to decide, thats your customers... BUT, you clearly state your NOT a full time professional photographer...  Since that is the rule to join the program, I'M just saying, if they were to follow that rule, then you wouldn't qualify.  Nothing more nothing less.  I'm not attacking you or your status, i'm just saying IF you are indeed eligible to qualify in their program, and they are ok with it, then they need to change that rule so it's fair for all people, like you. 

17
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

Wrong.  according to Canon CPS, Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

That is directly from their own FAQ.  You are correct, i've gone to many events, Weddings, Parties, etc where guests, like neuro, has better gear than myself...  The difference is i'm getting paid and entrusted by the hosts of the event to provide the images for the event, wedding, whatever the case may be.  My gear is critical to my families income so I cannot have them go down or i'm out of business.  CPS is aimed to help us working professionals so we can experiment with new gear, buy new gear, and help us if our gear goes down to get it back up and running the best way possible.

Again, let us all be reminded that Canon is a business. One with a lot of people that have monetary interest in. The goal of any business is to make money. If you don't like the way the program is being run, I would think the correct direction to aim your frustration would be the company themselves for setting it up this way.

You defining or saying that CPS is for.... is mere conjecture on your part as you have no idea what their business model is or what their true intentions for CPS are. You appear to simply be upset at the fact that they are not running it the way YOU see fit and have somehow decided that it is the amateur consumer's fault.

FWIW
I keep hearing the mention of how if photography is someone's main source of income and their livelihood depends on it, their needs are inherently more important. Well hell, I once had the dream of being a photographer for a living as well. Instead, I sucked it up and took on a career doing something I could care less about so that I could fund what I loved to do instead. And now, I have the money for the gear and a membership only to have people like you try to tell me that I'm somehow bending the rules or taking advantage for my own selfish gain at your expense.

I'll tell you what. If photography were my chosen profession and things were the way they are, I wouldn't so much cry about it as I would be working to find a way to make more money so that I wouldn't have to worry so much when my gear does go out. But that's just me.

Yes John, Seriously... They need to know what their general customer base thinks of their products and services... They replied saying they have forwarded it to the management... so, if they agree with your motto, they will leave it be, if they dont, then they will wake up and make some changes to their policies.  It's not whether or not they are doing it MY way or not, it's about doing it according to their own rules and regs.

My position still stands and I'm pretty sure that the core of their concern will be their general customer base and their willingness to pump more money into their company. I currently have over 25k in Canon equipment in my house and am prepping myself to buy whatever they have brewing in the works for their next pro level body. They could theoretically begin to exclude people like me, but that only serves to put a black eye on their business for consumers like myself who have spent significant amounts of their non-qualified incomes on Canon products.

Perhaps they will in fact boot the large number of high dollar spending amateurs in hopes of pleasing the pros that spend less and I will be back here reading the "I told you so" comments.  ;D

So, you want to be a part of a program you, according to their rules, are not entitled to even be in, in the first place, and say it would be a black eye for them to enforce their own freaking rules?  Are you high or something?  My point still stands, either enforce your rules or change your rules to encompass your actual positioning...  Dont have a set of rules and break them.

Again, that is at the company's discretion and not the consumer's. So as you have already done, the issue has been brought to their attention. No need to try to affect the consumer's mentality through your remarks as they have no control over it.

And no, I am not high. As a matter of fact, I think I've made very logical arguments (albeit without accusing people of being "high").

Again I ask, so you believe the ONLY people that should have the right to be in CPS should be FULL-TIME pros that use photography as their main source of income? As others have stated before, most photographers I know do a number of various things to make money including workshops, stock photo, extra job on the side, renting out gear, etc.

If your answer to my question is yes, then please diagram (in a very specific fashion) for me how it is you would set the criteria to determine just how "pro" you have to be in order to qualify? This should include type of work, hours spent, amount of income, percentages earned from photography, etc. It would need to be a feasible model for Canon to operate their program under.

The other question I would then ask is, how many memberships would still be left after you excluded all the consumers that don't fit into that model?

John, your arguments that you presented are more of the entitlist opinion of "what do you have that makes YOU (Pros) more special than anyone else to qualify for this service"... That's basically it in a nutshell... My opinion and argument is they, Canon, have already detailed what they want to qualify for this service within the USA... other countries and regions vary and are subject to their own rules. 

This is how it is worded in Canon's USA CPS website: Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

So, based on THEIR rules, you have to make images, self employed, or staff of a photography studio or business in charge of making photography for other people or companies on a FULL TIME basis.  There's no gray area... there's no maybe maybe-not...  it's pretty black and white....  Most people assume full time as being 30+ hours a week...  I'm sure if you talk to any full time working professional photographer, most will say they work almost double that at times.  It's pretty simple... those are their rules.  Enforce them or change them...

As for your other questions, yes, if you dont qualify as a full time working professional, according to THEIR RULES, they would wouldn't qualify.  How many would they lose in that program?  Probably a good chunk, but they would have their target audience in that program.  I'm sure most people who would lose their membership, unlike you, already knew they were bending rules and knew, as they have it on the books, was just a matter of time.  But, i'm also saying that if this is indeed what they want, then they MUST change the rules to specify WHAT AND TO WHAT LIMITS they want their CPS members to be and then increase the equipment and services to best suit their customers.

We will agree to disagree. Hopefully Canon will beef up their admittance process and better serve the minority for your sake at the cost of current and potential revenue.

Agree to disagree on what?  Thats their rules on their website about qualifying candidates...  dont shoot the messenger...  They can do what they want to do, but they need to make their minds up either way and either enforce or change the rules and open it up to practically anyone with a cool 10k in disposable income... 

18
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

Wrong.  according to Canon CPS, Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

That is directly from their own FAQ.  You are correct, i've gone to many events, Weddings, Parties, etc where guests, like neuro, has better gear than myself...  The difference is i'm getting paid and entrusted by the hosts of the event to provide the images for the event, wedding, whatever the case may be.  My gear is critical to my families income so I cannot have them go down or i'm out of business.  CPS is aimed to help us working professionals so we can experiment with new gear, buy new gear, and help us if our gear goes down to get it back up and running the best way possible.

Again, let us all be reminded that Canon is a business. One with a lot of people that have monetary interest in. The goal of any business is to make money. If you don't like the way the program is being run, I would think the correct direction to aim your frustration would be the company themselves for setting it up this way.

You defining or saying that CPS is for.... is mere conjecture on your part as you have no idea what their business model is or what their true intentions for CPS are. You appear to simply be upset at the fact that they are not running it the way YOU see fit and have somehow decided that it is the amateur consumer's fault.

FWIW
I keep hearing the mention of how if photography is someone's main source of income and their livelihood depends on it, their needs are inherently more important. Well hell, I once had the dream of being a photographer for a living as well. Instead, I sucked it up and took on a career doing something I could care less about so that I could fund what I loved to do instead. And now, I have the money for the gear and a membership only to have people like you try to tell me that I'm somehow bending the rules or taking advantage for my own selfish gain at your expense.

I'll tell you what. If photography were my chosen profession and things were the way they are, I wouldn't so much cry about it as I would be working to find a way to make more money so that I wouldn't have to worry so much when my gear does go out. But that's just me.

Yes John, Seriously... They need to know what their general customer base thinks of their products and services... They replied saying they have forwarded it to the management... so, if they agree with your motto, they will leave it be, if they dont, then they will wake up and make some changes to their policies.  It's not whether or not they are doing it MY way or not, it's about doing it according to their own rules and regs.

My position still stands and I'm pretty sure that the core of their concern will be their general customer base and their willingness to pump more money into their company. I currently have over 25k in Canon equipment in my house and am prepping myself to buy whatever they have brewing in the works for their next pro level body. They could theoretically begin to exclude people like me, but that only serves to put a black eye on their business for consumers like myself who have spent significant amounts of their non-qualified incomes on Canon products.

Perhaps they will in fact boot the large number of high dollar spending amateurs in hopes of pleasing the pros that spend less and I will be back here reading the "I told you so" comments.  ;D

So, you want to be a part of a program you, according to their rules, are not entitled to even be in, in the first place, and say it would be a black eye for them to enforce their own freaking rules?  Are you high or something?  My point still stands, either enforce your rules or change your rules to encompass your actual positioning...  Dont have a set of rules and break them.

Again, that is at the company's discretion and not the consumer's. So as you have already done, the issue has been brought to their attention. No need to try to affect the consumer's mentality through your remarks as they have no control over it.

And no, I am not high. As a matter of fact, I think I've made very logical arguments (albeit without accusing people of being "high").

Again I ask, so you believe the ONLY people that should have the right to be in CPS should be FULL-TIME pros that use photography as their main source of income? As others have stated before, most photographers I know do a number of various things to make money including workshops, stock photo, extra job on the side, renting out gear, etc.

If your answer to my question is yes, then please diagram (in a very specific fashion) for me how it is you would set the criteria to determine just how "pro" you have to be in order to qualify? This should include type of work, hours spent, amount of income, percentages earned from photography, etc. It would need to be a feasible model for Canon to operate their program under.

The other question I would then ask is, how many memberships would still be left after you excluded all the consumers that don't fit into that model?

John, your arguments that you presented are more of the entitlist opinion of "what do you have that makes YOU (Pros) more special than anyone else to qualify for this service"... That's basically it in a nutshell... My opinion and argument is they, Canon, have already detailed what they want to qualify for this service within the USA... other countries and regions vary and are subject to their own rules. 

This is how it is worded in Canon's USA CPS website: Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

So, based on THEIR rules, you have to make images, self employed, or staff of a photography studio or business in charge of making photography for other people or companies on a FULL TIME basis.  There's no gray area... there's no maybe maybe-not...  it's pretty black and white....  Most people assume full time as being 30+ hours a week...  I'm sure if you talk to any full time working professional photographer, most will say they work almost double that at times.  It's pretty simple... those are their rules.  Enforce them or change them...

As for your other questions, yes, if you dont qualify as a full time working professional, according to THEIR RULES, they would wouldn't qualify.  How many would they lose in that program?  Probably a good chunk, but they would have their target audience in that program.  I'm sure most people who would lose their membership, unlike you, already knew they were bending rules and knew, as they have it on the books, was just a matter of time.  But, i'm also saying that if this is indeed what they want, then they MUST change the rules to specify WHAT AND TO WHAT LIMITS they want their CPS members to be and then increase the equipment and services to best suit their customers. 

19

Anywho, for what it's worth, i sent a link of this thread to CPS...  dont know what or if things can change now that they have let things get out of control, but one can hope.

Seriously? LOL.
+1 :)
So what you´re actually saying is that You want Canon to give You and your peers, with less gear, meaning you have spent less money with Canon, exclusive right to their services (and more, faster and better, please), of which you are the heavy and costly users, excluding others who are spending more money with Canon, but use less of their services :o

i am not surprised if you find it difficult to make money ...

not at all my friend, not at all... Just holding their feet to the fire... Change your rules to either expand services to all people or enforce the rules already on the books... Just dont pretend to be a professional service if you are not.

I cannot speak for all. But I can say that I do offer a professional service (one of which all my clients have loved over other so-called pros before me). I don't have the time to have anywhere near the same frequency of professional gigs as a full-time pro, but it doesn't mean that I do not do my fair share. So as far as I go, there is no pretending here. The only thing causing an issue is when an individual has decided that the amount or type of work they do makes them more qualified as a "professional."

In a nutshell. Just because I have chosen to do something else as a primary source of income doesn't make the paid work that I do not "professional."

I'm not saying you are not "professional", although depending on many factors, that may or may not be an accurate description, but that's neither here or there...  Once again, their rules state a full time professional image maker, or an image maker that produces work for a third party full time... whatever, same jist...  as I said, i didn't make the rules... they never asked me for my input on the rules...  BUT, if your camera goes down, you can afford to have canon repair and have it back to you when they are done.... I dont have that luxury.  This is my sole income... this is all i know to do... This is what i've worked my whole life for.  If you cannot understand that, then you have more problems that just this.  Enforce the rules or change them... Not saying is is more right than the other, just dont claim to be a professional service then (canon).  (and be prepared to lose more pro's over to nikon)... 

20
A parallell:
I am a business man. I run a company. I travel a lot. I pay high prices for business class tickets when I travel inter continental. I like to get access to lounges, I like to be able to upgrade and I like priority check in, priority boarding etc. because it makes my professional life a lot easier.

Using your arguments, I should require from the airlines to separate the holiday travelers, who are rich enough to buy the same business class tickets from us, the professionals. Because they only do this once in a while and I do it all the time. It is my work, but they only do it for fun. They should have a screening of frequent flyer membership status, to ensure that only the professional travelers get bonus points and the right to special services etc. etc.

You see how stupid it is?

No.... i'm saying enforce your own rules and policies or change them to assimilate with what is the current protocol.  Dont say this is for Professionals when uncle bob with a lot of money can get in also.  I didn't make the rules, but if rules are going to be in place, enforce them. 

21
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

Wrong.  according to Canon CPS, Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

That is directly from their own FAQ.  You are correct, i've gone to many events, Weddings, Parties, etc where guests, like neuro, has better gear than myself...  The difference is i'm getting paid and entrusted by the hosts of the event to provide the images for the event, wedding, whatever the case may be.  My gear is critical to my families income so I cannot have them go down or i'm out of business.  CPS is aimed to help us working professionals so we can experiment with new gear, buy new gear, and help us if our gear goes down to get it back up and running the best way possible.

Again, let us all be reminded that Canon is a business. One with a lot of people that have monetary interest in. The goal of any business is to make money. If you don't like the way the program is being run, I would think the correct direction to aim your frustration would be the company themselves for setting it up this way.

You defining or saying that CPS is for.... is mere conjecture on your part as you have no idea what their business model is or what their true intentions for CPS are. You appear to simply be upset at the fact that they are not running it the way YOU see fit and have somehow decided that it is the amateur consumer's fault.

FWIW
I keep hearing the mention of how if photography is someone's main source of income and their livelihood depends on it, their needs are inherently more important. Well hell, I once had the dream of being a photographer for a living as well. Instead, I sucked it up and took on a career doing something I could care less about so that I could fund what I loved to do instead. And now, I have the money for the gear and a membership only to have people like you try to tell me that I'm somehow bending the rules or taking advantage for my own selfish gain at your expense.

I'll tell you what. If photography were my chosen profession and things were the way they are, I wouldn't so much cry about it as I would be working to find a way to make more money so that I wouldn't have to worry so much when my gear does go out. But that's just me.

Yes John, Seriously... They need to know what their general customer base thinks of their products and services... They replied saying they have forwarded it to the management... so, if they agree with your motto, they will leave it be, if they dont, then they will wake up and make some changes to their policies.  It's not whether or not they are doing it MY way or not, it's about doing it according to their own rules and regs.

My position still stands and I'm pretty sure that the core of their concern will be their general customer base and their willingness to pump more money into their company. I currently have over 25k in Canon equipment in my house and am prepping myself to buy whatever they have brewing in the works for their next pro level body. They could theoretically begin to exclude people like me, but that only serves to put a black eye on their business for consumers like myself who have spent significant amounts of their non-qualified incomes on Canon products.

Perhaps they will in fact boot the large number of high dollar spending amateurs in hopes of pleasing the pros that spend less and I will be back here reading the "I told you so" comments.  ;D

So, you want to be a part of a program you, according to their rules, are not entitled to even be in, in the first place, and say it would be a black eye for them to enforce their own freaking rules?  Are you high or something?  My point still stands, either enforce your rules or change your rules to encompass your actual positioning...  Dont have a set of rules and break them. 

22

Anywho, for what it's worth, i sent a link of this thread to CPS...  dont know what or if things can change now that they have let things get out of control, but one can hope.

Seriously? LOL.
+1 :)
So what you´re actually saying is that You want Canon to give You and your peers, with less gear, meaning you have spent less money with Canon, exclusive right to their services (and more, faster and better, please), of which you are the heavy and costly users, excluding others who are spending more money with Canon, but use less of their services :o

i am not surprised if you find it difficult to make money ...

not at all my friend, not at all... Just holding their feet to the fire... Change your rules to either expand services to all people or enforce the rules already on the books... Just dont pretend to be a professional service if you are not.

23

Anywho, for what it's worth, i sent a link of this thread to CPS...  dont know what or if things can change now that they have let things get out of control, but one can hope.

Seriously? LOL.

Lastly John, i could have done your same thing...  I could have done what my parents wanted me to do and join the Navy.  I could have gone to some Community college and gotten some other training... But as a kid, every day my dad would come home pissing and moaning about his work, how much he hated it, how much he was doing it to support the family, you know, being a martyr... I swore I would NEVER allow myself to do that.  I would do what I wanted to do how I wanted to do it and live my life.  I didn't settle and now i'm working in the best job (for me) that I could have.  I didn't "SUCK IT UP", i did everything i can be a professional in every sense of the word.  How many people can truely say they are doing what they love?  Not many. 

BUT, in the end, a photographers sucess and endorsements go a long way in marketing, two big examples are Sandy Puc (Canon) and Doug Gordon (Nikon), and then you have some betweeners like Tamera Lackey and Bambi Contrell who at some point in their career shot with both systems.  When Doug wins an award, Nikon is always praised, when Sandy when her awards, Canon is brought up...  Professional Services are meant to aid and support their professional base.  They aren't stupid...  Endorsements are key, especially if they dont have to pay them, they just give them the best support possible.  While I'm not in the same league as many of these world class photographers, I do aspire to get there some day and thats why they cater (nikon and canon alike) to their professional base.  It's not that pro's are any more important than any other consumer, but they know that when a pro, me or anyone else, is asked by a typical consumer, "hey, what gear do you use"... that professional endorsement goes a long way in whether that consumer goes to costco and buys a rebel or a nikon.   

24
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

Wrong.  according to Canon CPS, Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

That is directly from their own FAQ.  You are correct, i've gone to many events, Weddings, Parties, etc where guests, like neuro, has better gear than myself...  The difference is i'm getting paid and entrusted by the hosts of the event to provide the images for the event, wedding, whatever the case may be.  My gear is critical to my families income so I cannot have them go down or i'm out of business.  CPS is aimed to help us working professionals so we can experiment with new gear, buy new gear, and help us if our gear goes down to get it back up and running the best way possible.

Again, let us all be reminded that Canon is a business. One with a lot of people that have monetary interest in. The goal of any business is to make money. If you don't like the way the program is being run, I would think the correct direction to aim your frustration would be the company themselves for setting it up this way.

You defining or saying that CPS is for.... is mere conjecture on your part as you have no idea what their business model is or what their true intentions for CPS are. You appear to simply be upset at the fact that they are not running it the way YOU see fit and have somehow decided that it is the amateur consumer's fault.

FWIW
I keep hearing the mention of how if photography is someone's main source of income and their livelihood depends on it, their needs are inherently more important. Well hell, I once had the dream of being a photographer for a living as well. Instead, I sucked it up and took on a career doing something I could care less about so that I could fund what I loved to do instead. And now, I have the money for the gear and a membership only to have people like you try to tell me that I'm somehow bending the rules or taking advantage for my own selfish gain at your expense.

I'll tell you what. If photography were my chosen profession and things were the way they are, I wouldn't so much cry about it as I would be working to find a way to make more money so that I wouldn't have to worry so much when my gear does go out. But that's just me.

Yes John, Seriously... They need to know what their general customer base thinks of their products and services... They replied saying they have forwarded it to the management... so, if they agree with your motto, they will leave it be, if they dont, then they will wake up and make some changes to their policies.  It's not whether or not they are doing it MY way or not, it's about doing it according to their own rules and regs. 

25
...What does seem to be the case is that they have assessed their resources at CPS and come to the conclusion that it is a good business decision for them to have more customers in their program.

Does Canon's defacto policy truly deplete the available resources for professionals, or does expanding the membership allow them to keep the program open for professionals. I suspect it is the latter.

In the old days, Canon and Nikon probably ran their professional services programs as loss leaders. They probably didn't make money on the service, but used other resources to subsidize it so they could keep their professional base content. But, that was in the days when there was a large professional base and profit margins were more generous.

In today's business world, every division and every subdivision has to justify it's existence and demonstrate some contribution to the bottom line. That's just how businesses are run today. I strongly suspect that management looked at CPS and determined that it could not be sustained based on the traditional model, so they had to find a way to make it self-sustaining and this is it.

So really, while I know it is frustrating for someone who was invited to the wedding, to go and find a bunch of riffraff who got in by slipping some cash under the table, try to remember that if it weren't for that riffraff you would be eating Chicken instead of Filet Mignon.

Fair enough statement, but the latest changes to CPS. for instance their loaner policies, a few months ago were cited because of increasing enrollment and lack of equipment to meet the demand, hence shorter loan periods.  Of course after much push back they later revised it again so it wasn't as painful of a cut, but it is what it is...  and threads and attitudes such as what is on this very thread goes to show how changes like this is brought about in the first place.  Anywho, for what it's worth, i sent a link of this thread to CPS...  dont know what or if things can change now that they have let things get out of control, but one can hope.

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CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

Wrong.  according to Canon CPS, Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

That is directly from their own FAQ.  You are correct, i've gone to many events, Weddings, Parties, etc where guests, like neuro, has better gear than myself...  The difference is i'm getting paid and entrusted by the hosts of the event to provide the images for the event, wedding, whatever the case may be.  My gear is critical to my families income so I cannot have them go down or i'm out of business.  CPS is aimed to help us working professionals so we can experiment with new gear, buy new gear, and help us if our gear goes down to get it back up and running the best way possible. 

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CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.
John, I don't mean to be pompous or judgemental, but I quite disagree.
I don't have a "day job" to fall back on, so I think it's only fair that Canon looks after those who depend on their equipment for a livelihood.
Being a self-employed editorial photographer is fraught with enough challenges without the worry that your camera manufacturer doesn't have your back. In this day where publications expect content for free, let's just say there are many other careers that, in comparison, pay very well. Too many times I've covered events where the hobbyists have equipment that's better and newer than mine. Most likely theirs has seen far less wear, as they don't have to come up with usable images day after day. If they miss a shot because their gear fails, yes, it's a real disappointment.  If I miss mine, I've probably lost a payday, perhaps a hard-won client, as well as being out of work until it's fixed.

Definitely don't think you are either one of those things. Awin on the other hand....

Anyhow, while I respect your opinion, I still fail to understand how not allowing certain classes of photographers to have membership would help your cause. As it stands, there is a tiered setup for membership which includes one type that has expedited service as well as other perks. I know several photographers that regularly utilize that membership and have never had a problem having all their needs met in a timely fashion. So unless having such an open enrollment process adversely affects your ability to have your needs met somehow, I don't see what the issue is.

The reason Awin's comments bothered me was because they were full of assumption and judgment all of which were unfounded.

When it comes down to it, there are countless variations in need and types of photographers who do all different levels of work out there. As such, the grey area for what would be defined as "professional" is huge. Do we base it on generated income, number of jobs, frequency, type of work, etc?

I see i ruffled someones feathers...  Here's the deal...  year after year, and this isn't the only thread talking about this, more and more people sign up or try to sign up for Canon CPS and they have, especially recently, changed the rules and benefits of signing up decreasing what they used to give to us just to accommodate demand.  I have seen multiple accounts and threads on CR and other forums where people blatantly say they are not pro's and yet they are members of Canon CPS.  Instead of being stringent and exclusive, it's more of a pay per play system, and i feel it isn't right.  You have seen in almost every sector in life where when people take advantage of a service or good, that good starts becoming more scarce, funds start depleting for it, and or quality of goods start to deteriorate.  Without bringing politics into it, a simple look at the governments welfare and unemployment insurance systems are a great example as funding has been steadily cut to recipients and it's harder and harder to access.  The same is starting to happen to this great system and it isn't right. 

As a professional, i dont always have the funding to get the best gear as it is my livelyhood and i have no other funding, day jobs, etc to pay for my gear... if my gear goes down and CPS cant help me right away because some other non-pro has the gear i would need loaned to them, then i'm losing money or not being able to accept jobs and that hurt my bottom line and darn right i'm going to be peeved.  It is what it is.  CPS is Canon Professional Services, not Canon Insurance Services or Canon I want to be a photographer but have lots of money services... 

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Hello everyone,

I recently started my own photography business where I sell my prints - typically canvas or metal.  Two weeks ago I held my first exhibition and I am about to talk to several interested local establishments about displaying my work.

In order for this to work financially, I need a company that is willing to print at a decent cost.  I do not have the budget, nor will my wife give me permission, to buy a large format printer.  Besides, my metal prints are becoming more possible - which requires a far more expensive printer.  Therefore I like to send everything out.  However, my current prices cannot withstand the printing costs of places like MPixPro and Bay Photo - who I am sure do excellent work.

The canvas prints are the easy part.  I know of many online solutions and I have friends locally who will print for a low price.  The metal prints are more challenging.

Until now I have been working with pictureitoncanvas.  They are just starting out as well.  Their web site is maddening to work with and needs drastic improvement, but I took the opinion that since I was beginning my business, I would have some patience with them while they started theirs.  I used coupons to make my initial prints affordable and they offer a set discount to pro photographers on their site.  When I applied for that discount - sending them my business info + resellers certificate, they never responded.  Several times I have called customer support and they have told me that 100% I will hear back the next day. This is despite the fact that I have already given them a decent amount of business - ~50 prints so far.

I am now at the point that I need to replace them as a supplier.  If they cannot at least look at my file and/or call me back then I cannot rely on them as a business partner.

Would anyone know of a company who prints in metal, has a decent web site for ordering, and provides a discount to pro photographers?


Dear Kirispupis.
I am not the PRO, But I use my BEST PRODUCTS/ BEST COMPANY where located in my Home State, North Carolina . This " AluminArte MFG." are the best that I highly recommend to you.  Good  Price and Fantastic  3D. Look Picture on Aluminum Plate.
Enjoy
Surapon

http://www.imagewizards.net/


Interesting Lab, just took a look... it appears their smallest size they do is 16x20?  and at that, it is $130?  Holy crap, there's better options than that for pro's.  For Non-Pro's, one lab that is pretty good and offers great rates is adoramapix  They are associated with the adorama store in NY, rates you cant beat...  quality is usually pretty good... 

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http://www.bayphoto.com/metalprints/  They have a Roes ordering system, so you install the free software on your computer, get approved for an account, and then you order your stuff... The economy roes is cheaper but you have to ensure your files are color corrected and ready to print as is.  The full roes system is more $ but they color correct and make sure it's nails. 

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Bay Photo all the way...  There are some other labs i've used, but the prints are either not as crisp or just lacking in umph...  My clients love 'em

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