April 23, 2014, 06:54:46 AM

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Photography Technique / Re: Am I the only one this has happened to?
« on: April 21, 2014, 02:11:34 PM »
Lots of good advice and comments here.

I recall reading an article about Garry Winogrand, possibly the greatest street photographer ever. The key point was the Winogrand was relentless but never hesitated to make eye-contact and smile after he took a shot.

The point being that body language can be extremely important. If your body language says you belong there and you have a clear purpose in what you are doing, you can often deter persons from even questioning you. Of course it doesn't work for everyone, but it does work in a lot of cases.

Although I have long since left the newspaper business, I find that if I put on my "news photographer persona" (friendly, but purposeful – it doesn't hurt to be carrying a shoulder bag with multiple lenses) few people question me. Unfortunately, many photographers feel a bit self-conscious with their cameras and that lack of confidence can easily be misread as "this person is up to something."

In this case, the individual may have just been a jerk and nothing might have stopped him. But, I guess the main point is that, if you are photographing with a DSLR and any reasonably sized lens (or unreasonably sized) it's impossible for people not to notice you. Recognize that you will draw attention and just try to send out some body language that says: "This person belongs here."

EOS Bodies / Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« on: April 21, 2014, 01:32:42 PM »

Funny how some people can claim iq between cameras without owning them. ;)
I own both a 7d and 1d4 and have compared them a lot ( birding only and most of the time in reach limited situations- who isn't?)...

...if I have to choose one it will be the 7d. That's because the extra pixels on the subject gives me more details...

...If i'm not in a reach limited situations, or if I have to use iso higher than 3200, I would pick the 1d4....

...Please visit www.nature-wildlife-images.com for images...

...I really hope a 7d mk2 will be 22-24 mp and have at least same sensor iq as nikon d7100/pentax k-3.
(+ upgraded af, buffer, fps, silent shutter, ev comp in M etc)
Just like Pentax K-3  ;)

Thanks Petter. I really appreciate the real world experience and basically you seem to be confirming what I have taken away from much of the technical discussion as well.

I really believe the 7D II will have a sensor in the 22-24 mp range and be upgraded with many of the 5D III features (autofocus, silent shutter, dual card slots). Virtually every DSLR made today is great for all-around shooting and the key differentiations are at the margins.

I've often said that I was impressed with how well Canon targeted the 5DIII to a specific market (wedding and event photographers) while still creating a great all-around camera. I expect the 7DII will be similarly targeted to bird, wildlife and sports photographers (but remain a great all-around camera as well). While not a large professional market, the enthusiasts that fit into this category probably make up one of the largest and most affluent sub-categories of photographers.

This fits in with another theory I have – which is that Canon doesn't want to sell people just one camera. They want to grow the market by encouraging buyers to own both a full frame and a crop sensor. A 7DII that provides excellent images in good light and distance-limited situations will very nicely complement a 5DIII, which shines in poor light, but requires too much cropping when distance-limited.

As I've written before, I started this thread in part to define the upper limits of performance, so as to better manage expectations. If one has reasonable expectations, then, given Canon's laser-like focus on maximizing opportunities where they find them, I think the 7DII will be quite impressive.

Photography Technique / Re: Am I the only one this has happened to?
« on: April 21, 2014, 10:45:26 AM »
...If you zoom in on individuals then it's not OK...

In an ethical sense, that might be true. But from a purely legal standpoint it isn't.

There is no automatic right to privacy in public spaces (in the U.S. at least). If you are in public, you should expect that you can have your picture taken by anyone. How they use that picture is another matter – editorial or artistic use okay, commercial endorsement of the can of Coke you're holding in your hand is not okay.

Don't want to hijack the thread, but did want to make sure that was clear.

EOS Bodies / Re: Petition to Canon regarding the EOS 5D Mark III
« on: April 21, 2014, 10:34:39 AM »
I saw this the other day and to be honest, my reaction was: "Those are the biggest concerns with the 5DIII?"

Makes me think it will be quite some time before a Mark IV debuts. Quite possibly well after a 6DII. Might even make the time between the 7D and 7DII seem short in comparison.

Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Samyang Teases Some New Lenses
« on: April 18, 2014, 01:08:55 PM »
When is someone going to make a wide angle lens (16 - 35 or there abouts) for Canon EF mount that doesn't suck, doesn't cost the earth and has auto-focus?
Tokina makes a 16-28mm F2.8 quite interesting, which costs $629.

The Tokina 16-28/2.8 is an EF-S lens, not EF.

No it isn't. The 11-16/2.8 is EF-S (But mounts on full frame). The 16-28 f2.8 is full frame.

EOS Bodies / Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« on: April 17, 2014, 11:37:24 PM »
My take away: Technology marches on. Physics not so much.

The headroom that is available for technological improvements is getting ever closer to the ceiling set by physics. So, from a practical standpoint, we may see some slight improvements in ISO performance from the next generation of 7D, but it won't match the performance of the last APS-H sensor Canon made.

Now, let me back up and say that we should all acknowledge just how good all the modern sensors are. If you can't take a great picture with any Canon or Nikon DSLR it is due to your own shortcomings, not the camera's.

It should be stipulated that this discussion, like almost all on this forum, is dealing with the margins. Small differences that won't affect most of us under most conditions. That's important because every once and awhile someone will assert that this or that camera or sensor is worthless. It's also important because we may refer to a particular camera as a "sports" camera, a "low-light" camera, a "high resolution" camera etc. etc., but that merely describes one characteristic of the camera and should not imply that it in any way limits its usability for other applications.

I started this thread because of curiosity about the upper limits of what could be expected out of a new 7DII sensor. We won't know the specifics until something is announced, but frankly, knowing what the limits are should help us set reasonable expectations and provide a basis for informed speculation about what such a camera might look like – until, of course, we actually see one announced.
Since I am now a 5DIII owner, I suppose I should not care. But I do. I still have a tremendous fondness for the 7D, but more importantly, I can still see it as a very useful option. I know my own financial limits and I seriously doubt those limits will allow me to own any Canon beyond 400mm. I may purchase the Tamron 600mm zoom, but no $4,000 lenses are in my future.
Also, not likely to be going on any $10,000 safaris pretty much assures me that I am likely to be distance limited under most circumstances. So, the reach of a good APS-C sensor inside of an excellent 7DII body with great autofocus, etc., etc., has its appeal.
...but I think you might be overlooking an important consideration for market differentiation-- video. That could surely influence sensor strategy as well.
You are correct. This has been a very "stills-centric" discussion and one of the unknowns is just how much emphasis Canon will place on video in the 7DII. That could totally upset the speculative apple cart.

EOS Bodies / Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« on: April 17, 2014, 05:14:47 PM »

Finally, there is the one caveat that actually does give smaller sensors the edge. Or rather, to be more accurate, the caveat that gives smaller pixels the edge. Reach. The much-vaunted reach factor. The only case where a smaller sensor can give you a performance edge is when you are literally reach limited. You cannot use a longer lens, and you cannot physically move closer. You are either blocked by some active barrier, at the shore of a body of water, or moving closer would scare away your subject.

Yes, and this is exactly where I see the path dividing in the woods, so to speak.

I used to be an advocate for keeping the pixel density of the 7D at or about where it is currently and trying to score slight improvements in noise performance, etc. But your posts have convinced me that there simply isn't that much headroom available.

So, lately, I've been speculating about the possibility that Canon might return to the megapixel race in the next 7D (or at least match their competition).

Why? Because wildlife/bird/sports etc. photographers are often distance limited and, as you say, reach is an advantage for crop sensors.

Here is where I think it boils down to market research. Canon will release a sensor with the pixel density determined primarily by which they think will sell more 7DIIs -- not exactly a brilliant insight, I know.

But, they can't produce a sensor that violates the laws of physics – even if that is the sensor most of us want. 

So, I thought it worthwhile (and possibly entertaining) to contemplate what those technological limits might be and how that might influence the next round of flagship crop bodies to come out (both Canon and Nikon).
Jon, do you see a market for the 7DII except for those high-end shooters looking for reach?
If they want quality they have the 3 FF cameras.
If they are looking for value they have the 70D.

If Canon wants to replace the 1D (and IMO that's the only reason for 7DII to exist), Canon will try to replicate the IQ as close as possible. And that will mean lower MPs.
Note that Canon was pretty conservative with increasing megapixels on their 1D line.
They must have noticed people who want reach are wiling to sacrifice resolution for light sensitivity.
Mind you, the difference between APS-H and C isn't as much as with FF, so innovation in sensor light-sensitivity might well allow the newer APS-Cs (maybe not 7D though, if it still has the 70D sensor) to trounce the 1D line.

Interesting. I think we are following similar logic, but I'm seeing more megapixels and you are seeing less (which I would actually prefer, but don't think is likely)

EOS Bodies / Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« on: April 17, 2014, 02:13:15 PM »
Thanks, Jon Rista for trying to put this back on track.

Apparently some don't get why this matters. If physics really does limit how well an APS-C sensor can perform at higher ISOs (and I have no reason to doubt you on that), then the direction Canon decides to go with the 7DII sensor will tell us much about what the company thinks about the future of high-end crop sensor DSLRs.

If Canon were to release a 16mp 7DII, they are saying something quite different than if they release a 22-24 mp 7DII.

The relevant question for Canon is most likely to be – which one will generate more demand in the marketplace?

Many would say the 16mp sensor, which should have better high ISO performance than the current 18mp sensor. In effect, Canon would be following the same path with its flagship APS-C body that both they and Nikon have followed with their flagship full-frame bodies.

But, what really would be the demand for such a body – a good, maybe even great all-purpose crop body, but still not as good as the almost identically priced 6D in terms of high ISO performance. The 6D would be a better all-purpose body; and would there be sufficient differentiation between the two in the marketplace?

Or Canon could go the other way and release a 24mp crop sensor body -- essentially conceding the high ISO niche to full frame. Would this camera find a bigger market?

While the relative advantages of a crop sensor for reach have been much debated, almost everyone concedes that in cases where the shooter is distance limited and significant cropping is required, pixel density does matter. You will always reach some point where there simply aren't enough pixels to give you a usable image.

So, why the reference to the 1D IV? Because that was the point at which Canon abandoned the sensor that many argue passionately was the ideal compromise between size and reach.  We can't assess or intelligently speculate without first knowing what the constraints are.

If the ISO performance of the APS-H sensor can never be achieved with the smaller APS-C sensor, then Canon must decide which path to go down.

So, unlike the many, many threads where individuals focus solely on what they want and assign human motives to a large corporation (Canon doesn't care...Canon doesn't listen...Canon had better do this...) this is simply an effort to explore what the reasonable expectations may be, so that it gives us a better idea of what choices Canon is facing and, when they announce their decision, we have a better idea of where the market is going.

Canon General / Re: "MAP" pricing....How long will it last????
« on: April 16, 2014, 11:04:22 PM »
...I see the downside to massive internet retailers like Amazon, that have little to no investment in the community. They don't pay the taxes that support schools, roads, police, etc. etc.

On the other hand, like most consumers, I am interested in maximizing my purchasing power.

To the extent that sales taxes support community services, Amazon is now collecting them on behalf of many states (mine included).   Even without that, consumers in most states are obligated to pay use tax on items purchased from another state and intended for use in the home state.  I'm sure all law-abiding citizens declare such purchases on their state tax returns...  ::)

Amazon started collecting California sales tax last year.  I would think that states where Amazon has distribution centers are paying state and local taxes as well.

Actually, I wasn't referring to sales taxes, but to the whole investment in the community that brick and mortar stores have.

Even national retailers like Best Buy or Barnes and Noble contribute far more to local economies than Amazon. Through their network of local stores, they hire local workers, pay salaries, payroll taxes, workers' compensation, unemployment insurance, etc., Their stores pay local property taxes, which support local schools.

The local payroll circulates through the local economy, helping other local businesses, including photographers, stay in business.

Sales taxes are paid by the consumer and are only collected by the stores. The individual still owes the taxes, regardless of whether or not the retailer collected the, so those taxes aren't really relevant.

As I said, I'm conflicted because, like most consumers, I'm short-sighted enough to go for the best price whenever possible. But, that doesn't make me blind to the downsides of an internet-based economy.

EOS Bodies / Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« on: April 16, 2014, 10:52:12 PM »
Well, aren't we all being jerks today.


EOS Bodies / 1d IV vs. 7D II
« on: April 16, 2014, 06:19:55 PM »
Okay, I know one is discontinued and the other is non-existent, but this is mostly for fun and a bit of learning.

Do the experts here think that the overall image quality of the 7DII will match or at least come close to the APS-H 1D IV? Why or why not?

Pricewatch Deals / Re: Calumet Store Closing Sale
« on: April 16, 2014, 02:30:49 PM »
Given what I read here, I don't know that I'd be hurrying off to a store immediately:


If I'm reading this correctly Calumet Sale Motion the offer is for the Oak Brook (IL), Goose Island (Chicago), Philadelphia, San Francisco and Washington, D.C. stores. I notice none of those are on the sale ad.

Canon General / Re: "MAP" pricing....How long will it last????
« on: April 15, 2014, 05:36:35 PM »
I think I understand why they try to enforce MAP pricing. They are trying to protect their dealer network; not necessarily the large retailers, but the smaller shops that can't compete on volume and can't stay in business on the small margins that internet dealers accept.

Intellectually, I am sympathetic because I see the downside to massive internet retailers like Amazon, that have little to no investment in the community. They don't pay the taxes that support schools, roads, police, etc. etc.

On the other hand, like most consumers, I am interested in maximizing my purchasing power.

So, I am conflicted.

Two points though to keep in mind.

First, MAP pricing does not affect the manufacturer's price to the retailer. When Canon or Nikon or Sony enforce MAP pricing, they aren't earning any additional profit, the higher margin goes to the retailer. They continue to sell the product to the retailer at the price they've always sold it.

Second, MAP enforcement never works. Ultimately, the market sets the price regardless of  MAP.

Third Party Manufacturers / Re: B&H or Adorama
« on: April 14, 2014, 10:28:39 PM »
Shows up in black on Internet Explorer. Doesn't show up in Firefox, Chrome, Opera or Safari.

EOS-M / Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« on: April 14, 2014, 04:23:27 PM »
LEICA is always the ol' rusty nail that deflates the whole argument against the profitability of niche markets, aren't they?

Who's arguing that niche markets are unprofitable?  They can be quite profitable, if managed (aka exploited) properly.  The 1-series bodies are a niche market, the 1D C even more so – and they're priced for Canon to profit from them.

I was about to respond to this, but you said it better and more succinctly than I could.

One additional thought though: people shouldn't confuse niche market profitability with large company sustainability. The 1-series bodies may be very profitable for Canon (I really don't know if they are or if they are a marketing loss-leader), but they couldn't possibly sustain the entire company because there just aren't enough buyers.

The Rebels, on the other hand, may be a small profit item, but I suspect the t3i contributes more to the overall bottom line than all the 1-series put together.

Point being -- large companies must pick and choose which niche markets to enter and sustain. Canon and Nikon remain in the flagship DSLR market in part because it aligns well with their prosumer, enthusiast, consumer and entry-level marketing.

Neither Canon nor Nikon have ever shown much interest in medium format cameras. I suspect it is because the small dollars available won't allow sufficient return to justify the investment and they can put those dollars to better use in other niche markets that align better with their overall mission – cinema DSLRs for example.

You should care: mirrorless is the future of Canon's camera business; more to the point, it's the future profit of Canon's camera business.

It's amazing how people keep saying things like this even though the mirrorless market has failed to materialize in the U.S. and Europe, and is still a side market in Japan.

Additionally, the jury is still out on whether the Japanese and other Asian markets are the leading edge or the trailing edge. Just because mirrorless currently seems to be doing well in Asia, too many people assume that's the future.

But, the evidence can be read in just the opposite way – mirrorless might be just a temporary infatuation for a market that could ultimately end up following Europe and the Americas into the DSLR love affair.

Okay, I know it's very risky to combine the Japanese market with the rest of Asia. Japan is a mature market and mirrorless seems primarily focused on generational and gender-based preferences in Japan.

But, China is an emerging market and ultimately may be a much more important one at that. As the middle- and upper-classes expand in China, they may find DSLRs just as appealing as their European and American counterparts.

So my point remains -- we really don't know if mirrorless is the wave of the future or not, even in Asia.

Side Note: Looks like the HTML might be screwed up on this post. Can't find a way to get in to it to see what the problem might be. My apologies.

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