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Author Topic: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?  (Read 6641 times)


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Pitbullo

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2012, 02:42:20 PM »
Quite interesting! I think the next generation crop cameras, with the 7DII as the first to be released are gonna have an entire new generation sensors. I dont think Canon dare to release a pro crop camera with the worn out 18mp sensor. That is why it is taking so long.

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2012, 08:42:34 PM »
Quite interesting! I think the next generation crop cameras, with the 7DII as the first to be released are gonna have an entire new generation sensors. I dont think Canon dare to release a pro crop camera with the worn out 18mp sensor. That is why it is taking so long.
Some people think that all 18 mp sensors are the same, even though they obviously are not.  If Nikon uses a 18mp semsor, will it be a old worn out Canon sensor?  What about the Nikon D4, its 16mp, must be a old worn out sensor from the Canon 1DS MK II?

coreyhkh

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2012, 10:54:23 PM »
“The 7D was ahead of its time,” says Chuck Westfall, a Canon technical advisor, by way of explaining the new-product black hole since the EOS 7D was announced. He says the 7D-level Canon is not dead at Canon.


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Danielle

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2012, 11:43:57 PM »
I have full faith both canon and nikon will release successors, however... I don't have faith either will come cheap.

Time will tell. Don't go ditching your 7d in hope, it's only a guess estimation of an announcement early next year.

Hillsilly

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2012, 01:21:26 AM »
Without some revolutionary new thinking, maybe we're approaching the point where sensors are as good as they are going to get.   When I look at the 1Dx, 5Diii, D800 etc I'm left wondering if the sensors are lacking anything that a typical user could want. Maybe future cameras will just rely on increased processing speed and power, AF improvements and enhanced connectivity.  If this is the case, then there is less incentive for users to update cameras and we might go back to 3 to 4 year life cycles across all models.
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Rocky

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2012, 01:32:38 AM »
We do not need ( some might want) more MP in both the APS-C and FF. What we badly need is more dynamic range in ALL formats.

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2012, 01:32:38 AM »

tortilla

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2012, 10:25:52 PM »
When I look at the 1Dx, 5Diii, D800 etc I'm left wondering if the sensors are lacking anything that a typical user could want.

I want it all, less noise, higher ISO and most of all, as Rocky said, more dynamic range. That said, I also don't know how far we are from physical limits. But in terms of dynamic range, Canon might deliver more in the future: at low ISO the D800 has more than 2 EV more dynamic range than the 5d mkiii (according to DxO).

mjbehnke

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2012, 11:31:51 PM »
I think Canon should continue with the Foveon type Sensor (http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/07/canon-3-layer-sensor-foveon-type-patent/) I think that would be a good place to start with new sensors, as I've used a sigma DSLR with the Foveon sensor and it's got a great DR. They could do a 16MP Crop (16mp would be bigger diodes than the current 18 for better light gathering) and achieve 48MP Crop. Just seems like a good way to go.

Just my 2 cents. But it would sure make a nice Pro series Crop. As far as a FF??
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Pitbullo

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2012, 12:31:13 PM »
Quite interesting! I think the next generation crop cameras, with the 7DII as the first to be released are gonna have an entire new generation sensors. I dont think Canon dare to release a pro crop camera with the worn out 18mp sensor. That is why it is taking so long.
Some people think that all 18 mp sensors are the same, even though they obviously are not.  If Nikon uses a 18mp semsor, will it be a old worn out Canon sensor?  What about the Nikon D4, its 16mp, must be a old worn out sensor from the Canon 1DS MK II?

I am obviously talking about Canon sensors, this is, after all a Canon forum. You cant deny that Canon have been really good at re-using their 18mp sensor. And I dont know where you have the idea that everybody think that all 18mp sensors are the same, that is news to me. Why should people think that the Nikon D4 sensor is old and worn out? Because it is only 16mp? People that dont like photography may think that mp is an indication of how good a camera is. However, to my knowledge, these people wont know what a D4 is.

I dont know too much about Nikon sensors, other than that their new sensors supposedly are very good, DR wise.

As my prediction about the new sensor in the 7DII, I base that on rumors. We obviously dont know anything, since Canon are keeping their plans secret.



grafixstop

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2012, 04:07:35 PM »
It's hard to believe there's a sensor problem, but it's not hard to believe there's a marketing problem.  With a product line with four
offerings between $800-1800, why compound the problem.   If you assume the Rebel line will be the $800 entry point and that the
6D at $2000 beings a new classification - full frame - it would appear that a single offering in the middle at the $1400 price point would
be an adequate answer.  Then what do you do, kill the 60D or the 7D replacement?  It's not so much a competitive issue, Nikon is weak
in the same price area, Pentax has an offering, and who cares what Sony offers?   Basics - metal body for ruggedness, better AF than
current models (or else why change), between 18-22 megapixel image, SD card (single or multiple?), 7-10 frame/second exposure rate,
weather sealing (big plus in this price range), better control software (another impetus for change) with better menus and more intuitive
operation, HDR processing,  and while not particularly desirable for me but perhaps required for successful marketing - video capabilities
that are better than Rebel (not much of a hinderance) and maybe even match the 6D since the software would only require a minor
tweak.  Then on to a much bigger issue than a high end crop sensor body, but a commitment to a high quality EF-S lens stable.  As a
previous posted suggested a higher quality 10-22 would be a good start, a 28 or 35mm f1.4 prime (in the $600 price range a'la the
Fuji X series),  a ruggedness improvement to the EFS 55-250 would be a welcome addition, especially if the lens could be a constant
aperature f2.8 (or 3.5) and a prime in the 85-100mm equivalent range at f1.8 or 2.0.  Use the new STM motors and you have some
incredible offerings. 

marekjoz

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2012, 04:33:26 PM »
“The 7D was ahead of its time,” says Chuck Westfall, a Canon technical advisor, by way of explaining the new-product black hole since the EOS 7D was announced. He says the 7D-level Canon is not dead at Canon.


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Does it mean the same as: "We were wrong giving so much so soon" and "We should make the 7d 30% slower with worse AF so now we could present the 7d2 with the capabilities of the original 7d you can already buy for all these years"? It's really some kind of honesty not so usual in the marketing environment...
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unfocused

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2012, 11:04:10 AM »
It's hard to believe there's a sensor problem, but it's not hard to believe there's a marketing problem.  With a product line with four offerings between $800-1800, why compound the problem.   If you assume the Rebel line will be the $800 entry point and that the 6D at $2000 beings a new classification - full frame - it would appear that a single offering in the middle at the $1400 price point would be an adequate answer. ...

Sorry, I don't really agree.

First, there is currently only one offering between $800-$1,800 now – the 7D. All of the other models now have a street price below $800 in the U.S. (body only). I agree that Canon has a crowding and differentiation problem at the bottom end of its line, but some of that is due to the aging-out of certain models, coupled with the need to offer mass retailers a variety of packages at a variety of low-end price points.

Rather than offer a single model at the $1,400 price point, Canon and Nikon's original pricing strategy seems sound (and from what I can glean from available information, it has worked very well). Offering an enthusiast model in the $1,000-$1,200 range and a flagship crop in the $1,600-$2,000 targets two very different audiences. Too many people assume that the the target audience for the 60D and the 7D are identical. Given that both models have sold very well, that does not appear to be the case.
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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2012, 11:04:10 AM »

aj1575

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2012, 11:17:42 AM »
I do not think that Canon (and Nikon) will kill off their best APS-C cameras. It is more that I wonder where they will be going.
An 7DII with should have better features than a 6D, except for the sensor, because a 6D with APS-C is basically a 60D. While a 60D is to slow for many amateurs who like to shot sports and birds, as is the 6D, the 7D is up to this task, as are Sony's alpha series with their half transparent mirror (10fps). So Canon will definitly bring something in this range (as Nikon will do).
The 5DIII and the 1Dx where overdue in their lifecycle, so they had priority (1D and olympics go together). The 7DII is also overdue, but Canon has brought the 6D for people who like to upgrade to FF. And this is logical, because if you buy a 7DII, then you most likely won't buy a 6D. It is the same the other way arround, but the 7D has made its name already, and since it is probably positionied below the 6D it will attract users from further below the range.

What I fear is, that the 7DII will take a place alongside the 6D, at about the same price. Remember the 7D had the about the same price when it came out, as the 6D has now. The 6D would be more for landscape and studio, while the 7DII is more for sports.

We will see, at the end of Janury there is the CP+ at Yokohama, maybe we will see a new body there.

weekendshooter

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2012, 12:21:27 PM »
I feel like this article is missing the point a little. Canikon aren't killing off anything, there just isn't any new sensor tech to take the place of the existing chips to make a new high-end crop body a worthwhile purchase. We all know about Canon's 18mp sensor, and Nikon's Sony-sourced 16mp chip is similarly venerable and is a fantastic performer. In fact the D800 that everyone so lusts over is largely a full-frame version of the D7000's "old" sensor.

The 7D and D7000 are both very capable bodies that are currently available for great prices, and they will continue to be attractive until a legitimate advancement is made in crop sensor technology. Many of the recent crop bodies have combined new "features" such as touchscreens and on-chip PDAF with the same old sensors without actually improving IQ at all. I know if I owned a 7D or D7000 I wouldn't be scrambling to preorder a new body whose main selling point is a touchscreen or better AF in video mode.

Canon will make a 7D2 when it has a sensor that befits that name, just like Nikon will make a D400 when it decides the time is right. In the meantime, you can grab a new 7D for $1300 or a D7000 for $900 and take great photos with a highly capable body.

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Re: Article: Are Canon and Nikon killing off their best crop-sensor DSLRs?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2012, 12:21:27 PM »