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Author Topic: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over  (Read 49582 times)

ChilledXpress

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2012, 01:03:31 AM »
wow, with that reasoning ( from OP) I should NOT have bought my 5D3 to shoot the gigs I did ( which for an event and wedding photog like myself, the best cam available is needed most times) and wait to save money so that I can buy TWO pro bodies.

hmm...

My math says that from July til now the 7 jobs kinda paid for it over 5 times.

Come on now... logic!!! Gobbledygook!!! I though I was the only one that uses a camera to make money. Sh*&# I love the price drop... and I bought my 5D3's early, made money and have moved on.

Did that make you feel better?

My primary income is from investments. I really have no personal feelings when it comes to taking a loss on something. It's business.

My point is simply that Canon is actively trying to screw over it's customers without lube with absurd and insulting markups.

I am simply pointing out facts, and giving both photographers and Canon business advice. Photography product sales are not driven by mark ups and mark downs, they are however driven by stability and trust. Once Canon starts to burn customers they may never see those customers return. Canon has very capable competition, and trust and stability may be all it takes to convert people.

"I really have no personal feelings when it comes to taking a loss on something." Riiiiiiiightt... I could tell you were a savy investment guy. It's buisness... Except with this rant on my purchase and Canon pricing. You seem to have made a poor investment with your purchase, you could'nt see that coming with all your investing experience...

Why help Canon now after being screwed so hard?!?! You should save these pearls of wisdom and invest in making cameras with all this great advice.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 02:27:23 AM by ChilledXpress »

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2012, 01:03:31 AM »

preppyak

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2012, 01:09:41 AM »
Doesn't it come down to the fact that Canon can't MAKE a company sell their product to a specific price..
Actually they can; it's what Nikon does, heavily enforcing their pricing structures making it nearly impossible to sell for anything less than exactly the current price (for example, the D800 was $2999 for many months, with nobody selling it for even $2998). Sure, companies could sell it lower, but, Nikon also could revoke their authorized status and destroy their ability to sell.

Canon is much more relaxed, thus why you see prices move around a lot. It's highly seasonal, so it's more that the natural timing of 5d3 price drops coincides with normal Xmas pricing. When Feb rolls around, you'll see the 5D3 move back to the $3000 range until May/June when new instant rebates come out. You could predict this because the 5D2 saw its price drop in a similar way. Both times it's moved downward significantly from October through February. Last year, it was it moving from $2500ish to $2000ish, and of course, the retail price drop. Now, it's the retail price creeping down to $1500. Next year, it'll either be discontinued, or you'll see the street price drop again around the holidays

preppyak

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2012, 01:15:25 AM »
Also, this is hardly Canon screwing over customers. It's just natural supply and demand. Canon didnt have a huge stock early on, early cameras had issues, and lots of pro's wanted the upgrade. So retailers had no incentive to drop prices, why sell a camera for $3000 when all those customers will pay $3500. Then, once that demand was met, retailers had to entice people to move stock. First it was add-ons, then slight discounts. Some companies are being very aggressive in moving stock now.

I'm not sure what alternative you would propose. Would you rather Canon force every retailer to sell the camera for $3500 forever until they do a retail price drop? Because that will mean retailers move fewer units and Canon makes less profit. They then in turn can't do R&D on new lenses or bodies, and then instead of complaining that the 5dIII costs less now than 6 months ago (like every piece of technology basically ever), you'd be complaining that they haven't released a new 24L, 35L, 400L, 14-24L, and a high MP body.

Zlatko

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2012, 01:31:23 AM »
Why is Canon seemingly actively screwing over it's buyers with insane price cuts, and equally insane introductory mark ups? The only reason I can come up with is that they want to lose customers and lose credibility.

It's pretty ironic when people complain about prices going down.  Some people are never happy. 

Prices go down = they complain that Canon is screwing its customers ("they're cutting prices! — what a terrible company!")
Prices go up = they complain that Canon is screwing its customers  ("they're jacking up prices! — what a terrible company!")
Prices stay the same = they complain that Canon is screwing its customers ("when will prices come down?! — what a terrible company!")

Canon makes some great stuff.  Some items I've bought at full price because I needed them right away, and very happy that I did.  They were too good & useful to wait for.  No regrets.  Other items I bought when prices came down, and very happy that I did.  Again, no regrets.  The cool thing is that while they make great stuff, they don't force you to buy anything.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 01:32:58 AM by Zlatko »

robbymack

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2012, 01:36:57 AM »
Did that make you feel better?

My primary income is from investments. I really have no personal feelings when it comes to taking a loss on something. It's business.

My point is simply that Canon is actively trying to screw over it's customers without lube with absurd and insulting markups.

I am simply pointing out facts, and giving both photographers and Canon business advice. Photography product sales are not driven by mark ups and mark downs, they are however driven by stability and trust. Once Canon starts to burn customers they may never see those customers return. Canon has very capable competition, and trust and stability may be all it takes to convert people.

So you bought a depreciating asset and you're upset it depreciated?  Do you return to the Mercedes dealership seconds after driving off the lot with the new s class and complain its now worth 20% less than you paid for it? 

M.ST

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2012, 01:39:44 AM »
If you was one one the first who buy the cameras after the introduction (early adopter) then you pay a higher price for the cameras and have many problems with errors.

If you don´t need the cameras for business then you have better to wait a few month.

Zlatko

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2012, 01:43:11 AM »
Canon, like most companies markup their prices for those who must have the latest gadget first.  After those people are ripped off the prices slowly start to come down and are aimed at the consumers waiting for a deal.
That's just the way the technology business is.  Buy the big screen TV that just came out and you pay full price.  Buy the one that came out last year and you get a discount.  It's variable pricing over time.  As prices come down, they attract new buyers with smaller budgets.  Is this news to anyone?

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2012, 01:43:11 AM »

ChilledXpress

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2012, 02:07:30 AM »
Canon, like most companies markup their prices for those who must have the latest gadget first.  After those people are ripped off the prices slowly start to come down and are aimed at the consumers waiting for a deal.
That's just the way the technology business is.  Buy the big screen TV that just came out and you pay full price.  Buy the one that came out last year and you get a discount.  It's variable pricing over time.  As prices come down, they attract new buyers with smaller budgets.  Is this news to anyone?

+1000 You must be an investment guy too...jking :D

What you mean my 2 year old TV has depreciated? Whhaaaa.... the next thing your going to tell me is my car lost half it's value when I drove off the lot  :'(
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 02:20:38 AM by ChilledXpress »

ScottyP

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2012, 02:28:27 AM »
OK.  Breathe.

Yes, that OP was a little over the top, and yes, new cars and new computers (especially) and new clothes depreciate pretty rapidly, especially in 2nd-hand sale.  That is very relevant as a comparison.

But, on the other hand, releasing a model of something at an absurdly high retail price, then almost immediately cutting its retail price dramatically may be an innocent adjustment to your gross miscalculation of market demand (acceptable though dumb) or it could be a kind of "customer un-appreciation" if too extreme, and too pre-planned.  There IS an element of trust involved in a loyal customer buying a new product early from a company, and intentionally hosing that loyal customer would be overly sharp dealing, yes?
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revup67

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2012, 02:47:01 AM »
Hmm..I look at this a bit differently.  The camera virtually costs the same now as it did 7 or 8 months ago as there's been no change in product though a minor decrease in cost as more are being sold as it seems now.  So let's say that cost to Canon was $1500 but they were charging $3500 and gaining a $2000 profit in this example.  Now that same $1500 has dropped to $2600..same camera, same parts.  Though their profit margin has dropped per unit they are selling more cameras as the price reductions makes it more appealing to more clients thus picking up in a higher quantity sales revenue stream vs. lower sales / greater profit margin (logical scenario).  Wouldn't they have rather sold more up front and possibly grabbed competitive customers from Nikon or upgrades from crop sensor customers?  I believe they lost some folks to Nikon (just go to Nikonrumors.com and see for yourself)and ticked off others on their high price gouging.  Point being if they were willing to settle on a $2600 price now then why wait the 8 months to do so and lose 'any' prospects?  PS - Some of you that use the camera to make a profit or make a living in photography boast unfairly that you've regained your money back.  We are glad for you but that is a myopic standpoint when there are many others that do feel slighted from this drastic price drop in such a short period of time and earn no income from their photography.  Canon didn't win any points here, they only lost (as there isn't one person that would favor a higher price) as those that are now soured will wait on future releases and no longer be early adopters which I believe are key in their "testing the waters"- net result is unfavorable in any regard..there's no win to anyone there.  My belief is there was too much of a price drop in too short of a period of time.  Not griping about a price drop per say, we all know that is to be expected and I think most accept this but not at 26% (2600 / 3500) as Nikon's decrease seems more in line than the extortion-like routine that Canon pulled. 
Thanks
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Radiating

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2012, 03:02:40 AM »
Maybe I'm looking at things from an overly logical standpoint, but look here are the facts.

Canon has PROVEN that they are willing to create pricing situations which result in new quadrupling of depreciation on both old and new gear. The 5D2 AND the 5D3 were affected, as well as the T4i, and to a lesser degree the 1DX ($900 in 3 months).

For most photographers we are constantly upgrading, meaning depreciation IS the amount we pay for our gear. I've bought lenses that have changed hands 18 times based on serial number look up. Gear changes hands a lot based on needs.

Canon's new pricing strategy indicates they have quadrupled the net costs of owning their equipment for most of their major cameras.

If we as photographers are logical, we would be very weary to buy Canon cameras until they prove they will cease the shenanigans. Canon cameras did not suddenly start producing images that were 4 times better, the competition is extremely close and really only a small bit of personal preference separates them.

Simply put in the cost/benefit equation Canon has increased the costs 4 fold. This is a huge game changer and photographer's relationship with Canon would benefit from being reconsidered.

Hobby Shooter

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2012, 03:16:58 AM »
Hmm..I look at this a bit differently.  The camera virtually costs the same now as it did 7 or 8 months ago as there's been no change in product though a minor decrease in cost as more are being sold as it seems now.  So let's say that cost to Canon was $1500 but they were charging $3500 and gaining a $2000 profit in this example.  Now that same $1500 has dropped to $2600..same camera, same parts.  Though their profit margin has dropped per unit they are selling more cameras as the price reductions makes it more appealing to more clients thus picking up in a higher quantity sales revenue stream vs. lower sales / greater profit margin (logical scenario).  Wouldn't they have rather sold more up front and possibly grabbed competitive customers from Nikon or upgrades from crop sensor customers?  I believe they lost some folks to Nikon (just go to Nikonrumors.com and see for yourself)and ticked off others on their high price gouging.  Point being if they were willing to settle on a $2600 price now then why wait the 8 months to do so and lose 'any' prospects?  PS - Some of you that use the camera to make a profit or make a living in photography boast unfairly that you've regained your money back.  We are glad for you but that is a myopic standpoint when there are many others that do feel slighted from this drastic price drop in such a short period of time and earn no income from their photography.  Canon didn't win any points here, they only lost (as there isn't one person that would favor a higher price) as those that are now soured will wait on future releases and no longer be early adopters which I believe are key in their "testing the waters"- net result is unfavorable in any regard..there's no win to anyone there.  My belief is there was too much of a price drop in too short of a period of time.  Not griping about a price drop per say, we all know that is to be expected and I think most accept this but not at 26% (2600 / 3500) as Nikon's decrease seems more in line than the extortion-like routine that Canon pulled.
Rev, not sure I agree with you here. For every major product launch a company like Canon, Nikon, Dell, Apple whatever will lose some customers due to disappointment of the products and win some thanks to the product. I am sure there are customers who have gone the other way also, when Nikon launched the D800 I am sure there were plenty of people who were disappointed with its limited abilities in terms of AF, burst speed and low light performance. We might not have heard of these people here at this forum, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I have also been over to nikonrumors (asking about lenses for a friend) and seen a couple of guys saying they are moving away from Nikon. In a a couple of these cases, from their approach it seems more to me like that they are looking for acknowledgement and appreciation more than asking for advise about the Nikon product line. My guess is that several of them won't buy a Nikon in the end either.

In terms of price, well I was one of the early adopters (but waited long enough for the light leak to be fixed for future resell purposes) so I paid a heavy price for it. I am not a professional and definitely didn't need the camera in that sense, but it's still nice to have it and use it. Photography is an expensive hobby for me, I make some money out of it but not enough to cover the hardware cost.

Technology always gets cheaper once it's produced in volumes, that is why we have quad core processors in our computers. Software and services don't follow that price curve.

Nikon's price policy in the case of D800 and D600 for me is inexplicable, it seems that they are in deep trouble or that they have gotten a really cheap price on the sensors from Sony OR did the Dell mistake of using too cheap components for some parts of the camera. That is something that always comes back to bite the company doing that.

My main point though is that all companies will win or lose companies in times of change or major launches. I wouldn't worry too much about the 8 or 10 guys shouting out their hate/frustration in a sometimes overly histrionic fashion.

In the end, I got to agree with you a bit though, the price drop was significant.

Zlatko

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2012, 03:27:04 AM »
... as Nikon's decrease seems more in line than the extortion-like routine that Canon pulled.
It's really nothing like extortion.  That's over the top too, though not as over the top as the OP's "screwing without lube" comment.

I hope everyone who is complaining about the price drops now will come back here to applaud Canon when prices go up.  Like, "Woohoo, prices are UP!  Glad that cost cutting is over!"  When, for whatever reason — seasonal sales ending, exchange rates, inflation, shortages, increased supply costs, etc. — prices go up 10, 20 or 30%, ... will you start a thread about how rational, sensible, fair, happiness-inducing and loyalty-rewarding the new pricing strategy is?  ;)

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2012, 03:27:04 AM »

rj79in

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2012, 03:27:57 AM »
Why is Canon seemingly actively screwing over it's buyers with insane price cuts, and equally insane introductory mark ups? The only reason I can come up with is that they want to lose customers and lose credibility.

Brilliant thinking but I doubt whether a corporation loses its customer base / credibility with only the price point :o. I always thought that the product quality is the first and foremost reason to choose or stick to a particular brand. I don't see Apple losing too many of its customers despite the obscene introductory pricing for some of its products.
 
Unless I'm unhappy with Canon's product quality I don't think I'll be switching systems just because the price at which I bought a product, is not held out by Canon for a longer period of time.

Unless you are living on a different planet you should know that the prices come down eventually and so, should wait. On the other hand if you are really craving for a particular product you will get it if you can afford it. What's the point of moaning???

Going by this logic one would moan that a vacation in Miami could be done for less in July as compared to say, February. You know what the current prices are and what the prices are expected in the future ... plan your purchases accordingly.

Hillsilly

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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2012, 03:55:13 AM »
Yes.  Canon should give their cameras away for free.  Or, more realistically, provide them on a subscription basis.  They probably don't cost that much to manufacture anyway, so if they did this directly from the factory it wouldn't cost them too much.  They'd easily make up the cash in extra lens sales to the millions of new Canon DSLR users.  Basic Marketing 101.  ;)

Would you pay $400/yr to rent a 5Diii directly from Canon on a 3 year agreement?  $1000/yr for a 1Dx?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 03:57:26 AM by Hillsilly »
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Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2012, 03:55:13 AM »