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Author Topic: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality  (Read 9967 times)

WSMyles

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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2013, 07:51:36 AM »
Not sure about the 650d but the 5D will let you shoot both RAW and JPG. That might come in handy later if you get into editing.

Both do :)

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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2013, 07:51:36 AM »

smithy

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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2013, 07:54:04 AM »
But you're right, for the cost difference, you would think that the 5d3 images would be way better...but they aren't....just slightly.

The lens you use plays an important part in the equation...you didn't mention what lens you used.

i have the 70-200mm F4 IS.
that is the lens i made the testshots with.

i will buy 2 other lenses but of course that depends on what body i will keep.
one in the 24-70mm range and one around 14mm (EF 14mm f2.8 or the EF-S 10-22mm).

EFS lenses won't work on the 5D3
The OP appears to be aware of that already.  :)
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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2013, 07:57:34 AM »
But you're right, for the cost difference, you would think that the 5d3 images would be way better...but they aren't....just slightly.

The lens you use plays an important part in the equation...you didn't mention what lens you used.

i have the 70-200mm F4 IS.
that is the lens i made the testshots with.

i will buy 2 other lenses but of course that depends on what body i will keep.
one in the 24-70mm range and one around 14mm (EF 14mm f2.8 or the EF-S 10-22mm).

EFS lenses won't work on the 5D3
The OP appears to be aware of that already.  :)

I guess I stopped reading right where it said EF-S  ... Thanks though!
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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2013, 08:17:50 AM »
You pose a great question OP.  The fact is, its pretty easy to get caught up in this latest tech game ... and honestly, there is a bit of 'all the cool kids have ____ so therefore I need to get a ____ to be cool' in photography.

I'm not a guy that prints alot, but I can tell you that from my experience a 'pretty good' landscape photo with decent exposure, wb, and composition will look 'outstanding' when printed ... even if you get beyond A3.

There are a ton of tech differences between those two cameras.  In the next 20 days, maybe its not a question of IQ ... but rather a question of which camera was giving you the best opportunity to take the IQ images you saw with your eyes.  Lenses and all the rest of it aside, if you feel more in tune with one , that'll lead to lots less misses and way more fun in the moment.

Lots of folks here probably wish they were faced with a similar decision :)  I know I do!
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 08:20:27 AM by RickSpringfield »

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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2013, 09:26:09 AM »
I am amazed that so many posters here are trying to recommend to the OP to keep the 5D3 which is so much more expensive and way in excess of his needs. Too many users in this forum are gear heads. The gentleman stated that he couldn't tell the difference with his test shots. He knows enough about photography to understand the impact of lighting and lenses on the results. And I am sure he understand the differences with features etc. His main concern was IQ! Yet he was expecting something different - its a real eyeopener if you ask me.  We assume that everyone has the desire to pixel peep and find the most discernible difference while forgetting that photography is an art and a pastime not something to keep our wallets empty. I say to the OP to SEND BACK THE 5D3 and stick with what works for a little money and go from there. Later down the road if you want the performance or 61 focus points etc you could buy the 5DMk4 or something better. In the end i think this guy knows something that us gearheads dont!

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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2013, 10:01:16 AM »
Since you state the 650 met your expectations I'd go that route. At low iso there really is little to differentiate the iq of ff and crop.  Now if you're going to shoot at iso 3200 and above there will be a marked difference. Also the wide and standard zoom options on crop are very good (Efs 10-22, Efs 17-55, Efs 15-85) and much cheaper when compared to their ff counterparts. There are also a number of third party crop lenses that are very good as well.  I'd recommend buying used lenses if that's an option. May as well save as much cash as you can and use the rest for travel. Enjoy.

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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2013, 10:06:40 AM »
Shoot Raw + Large fine jpeg. You'l have the jpeg files and raw to cover from exposure errors. Basic raw developing is really easy.
You'll see more the difference between the two cameras when developing raw.

Have a good one.

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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2013, 10:06:40 AM »

Meh

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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2013, 10:08:19 AM »
I am amazed that so many posters here are trying to recommend to the OP to keep the 5D3 which is so much more expensive and way in excess of his needs. Too many users in this forum are gear heads. The gentleman stated that he couldn't tell the difference with his test shots. He knows enough about photography to understand the impact of lighting and lenses on the results. And I am sure he understand the differences with features etc. His main concern was IQ! Yet he was expecting something different - its a real eyeopener if you ask me.  We assume that everyone has the desire to pixel peep and find the most discernible difference while forgetting that photography is an art and a pastime not something to keep our wallets empty. I say to the OP to SEND BACK THE 5D3 and stick with what works for a little money and go from there. Later down the road if you want the performance or 61 focus points etc you could buy the 5DMk4 or something better. In the end i think this guy knows something that us gearheads dont!

Oh bollocks.  Nobody is assuming anything rather expressing why he may not have seen much difference in image quality in his test shots and the comments are bang on.  The OP said he's a pensioner but didn't get caught up in cost and, afterall, he is in a position to order two new bodies to try out and says he will buy more lenses.  It seems perhaps that image quality is his primary concern rather than cost and in that context he should keep the 5D3 or as another comment suggested, return both and get a 6D.

There are many aspects to image quality and most are not about pixel peeping or editing.  Noise is a biggie and in the well-lit daytime conditions that the OP did the test shots there will be very little noise in any image even from an iPhone.  Images at dusk, dawn, night, or indoors will be a different story.  Or images with deep shadow regions.

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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2013, 10:08:31 AM »
I am amazed that so many posters here are trying to recommend to the OP to keep the 5D3 which is so much more expensive and way in excess of his needs. Too many users in this forum are gear heads. The gentleman stated that he couldn't tell the difference with his test shots. He knows enough about photography to understand the impact of lighting and lenses on the results. And I am sure he understand the differences with features etc. His main concern was IQ! Yet he was expecting something different - its a real eyeopener if you ask me.  We assume that everyone has the desire to pixel peep and find the most discernible difference while forgetting that photography is an art and a pastime not something to keep our wallets empty. I say to the OP to SEND BACK THE 5D3 and stick with what works for a little money and go from there. Later down the road if you want the performance or 61 focus points etc you could buy the 5DMk4 or something better. In the end i think this guy knows something that us gearheads dont!

+1

If he cannot see the difference then let him be... He is getting good pics with the 650, great. Let him spend the extra cash on some nice lens if he wants to.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 10:10:19 AM by K-amps »
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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2013, 10:20:26 AM »
This is one of the best questions asked in a long time. I come from film myself and started out with a 30D (140 000 exposures taken), 70-200 /4 L IS and 17-40 /4 L.

Now I have a 5D mkII and I am very happy with that camera.
As you have noticed, at low ISOs cameras these days all look great. As has been said, IQ differences comes into play in more extreme situations. But there are other things that matters to your final image and that is how lenses behave on each camera.

On a full frame camera the lenses behave as they used to do on film. That is, f/4 gives a rather short DoF (yes I know, focal length, subject/background distance). I think of it as f/4 on FF is approximately f/2.8 on crop. That means you get less DoF at the same apeture and framing. That also means that for portraits the FF has an advantage for bluring backgrounds, but APS-C has the upper hand on sharp landscape shots with everything in focus. You would think that you can stop the lenses down even on FF to get a large DoF and while you can do that, diffraction will set in earlier compared to APS-C (I think). You also get the greater compression of for instance the 85mm lens on FF compared to a 50mm lens on APS-C, giving more flattering portraits.

Also, the 650D has no AFMA so there is a chance of having to send camera and lenses to Canon to get them all adjusted for maximum sharpness. Sometimes that is important - the need for 100% focus is much greater whit the high resolutions we have today. It is much harder to get a 100% sharp photo with the 5D mkII compared to the 30D I think.

There are great wide angle lenses for both formats, but to get greater reatch the tele lenses get more expensive if you are unwilling to crop in post.

The autofocus of the 5D is more capable than the 650D making it more suitable for action.

To me another thing is important - larger and brighter viewfinder: this is a big plus to me! It´s easier to use and feels better after a long day of shooting. Also I like that I can use my 5D mkII with my mittens since I live in Sweden and I don´t stop photographing in the winter. I don´t want a smaller camera body.


So what do you need?
If you want to do portraits, extreme low light, more action, shallow DoF, adjust focus on your lenses? Keep the 5D.
If you want to do landscapes? Keep the 650D.
But yes, both cameras are capable and they both are great imagecreating mashines. The difference is in the format and how that affect the image, not really the image quality itself.

I hope this helps you.
And don´t forget how to use your tripod!

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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2013, 10:21:15 AM »
You pose a great question OP.  The fact is, its pretty easy to get caught up in this latest tech game ... and honestly, there is a bit of 'all the cool kids have ____ so therefore I need to get a ____ to be cool' in photography...

Excellent point.

I am amazed that so many posters here are trying to recommend to the OP to keep the 5D3 which is so much more expensive and way in excess of his needs. Too many users in this forum are gear heads. The gentleman stated that he couldn't tell the difference with his test shots. He knows enough about photography to understand the impact of lighting and lenses on the results. And I am sure he understand the differences with features etc. His main concern was IQ! Yet he was expecting something different - its a real eyeopener if you ask me.  We assume that everyone has the desire to pixel peep and find the most discernible difference while forgetting that photography is an art and a pastime not something to keep our wallets empty. I say to the OP to SEND BACK THE 5D3 and stick with what works for a little money and go from there. Later down the road if you want the performance or 61 focus points etc you could buy the 5DMk4 or something better. In the end i think this guy knows something that us gearheads dont!

Another excellent post.

Now my two cents worth. The gulf between film and digital is immense. Even the most inexpensive digital cameras will give far greater image quality than what most of us long time film shooters ever saw with film. The differences between the two larger digital formats (APS-C and "full frame") is much smaller and really only apparent at the margins (shooting high ISO or extremely large prints, for example)

If you shoot at ISO 400 or below, you can easily print as large as A1 with no discernible loss of image quality using an APS-C camera.

I am going to suggest a third option for you: Consider the 7D, if you like the handling of the 5DIII but are satisfied with the APS-C image quality. Both use the same sensor, but the differences are in the build quality, handling, autofocus and frame rates. The 7D is relatively inexpensive right now, in anticipation that a replacement model will be announced in the coming year. But, it remains, in my opinion, the best crop-frame camera available.

Why the 7D? Because I assume that a trip to South Africa will involve some wildlife shooting and under those conditions the autofocus and higher frame rate will help you get shots that you might not otherwise get.

In addition, I would suggest that if you return the 5DIII you look seriously at a longer telephoto lens. Again, assuming you are planning to shoot some wildlife, I think you will find the 70-200 zoom a little too short even on an APS-C body. The obvious options are the 70-300 "L" and the 100-400 "L" zooms.

The 70-300 "L" is newer, a little lighter, maybe a tiny bit sharper, easier to carry in a camera bag and the autofocus is a bit more responsive. The 100-400 "L" gets you an extra 100 mm, which is no small consideration in shooting wildlife and remains a great lens at a reasonable price.

Finally, I'd suggest you take a little time to learn RAW processing. I see no reason to shoot RAW + jpg, unless you need to immediately upload or print your images from the field. Even if you shoot in RAW and do nothing more than open the files and save it in Photoshop as a jpg, you will still have the RAW files later to work with.

Going from a film camera to a digital camera is amazing, but be prepared for something even amazing-er when going from processing and printing film-based images to processing and printing digital images using RAW. It simply offers options that could never be achieved with film – adjusting the color temperature of the image, tweaking the exposure over an almost infinite number of gradations, adjusting whites, shadows, blacks, contrast, highlights, etc. all independently. Creating smart objects that allow you to tweak one part of the image in one way, another part in a completely different way and a third, fourth, fifth, sixth part if  you choose and then merge the various pieces in Photoshop. All with the ability to return to your original exposure at any time if the need arises.
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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2013, 10:22:37 AM »
I am amazed that so many posters here are trying to recommend to the OP to keep the 5D3 which is so much more expensive and way in excess of his needs. Too many users in this forum are gear heads. The gentleman stated that he couldn't tell the difference with his test shots. He knows enough about photography to understand the impact of lighting and lenses on the results. And I am sure he understand the differences with features etc. His main concern was IQ! Yet he was expecting something different - its a real eyeopener if you ask me.  We assume that everyone has the desire to pixel peep and find the most discernible difference while forgetting that photography is an art and a pastime not something to keep our wallets empty. I say to the OP to SEND BACK THE 5D3 and stick with what works for a little money and go from there. Later down the road if you want the performance or 61 focus points etc you could buy the 5DMk4 or something better. In the end i think this guy knows something that us gearheads dont!

Oh bollocks.  Nobody is assuming anything rather expressing why he may not have seen much difference in image quality in his test shots and the comments are bang on.  The OP said he's a pensioner but didn't get caught up in cost and, afterall, he is in a position to order two new bodies to try out and says he will buy more lenses.  It seems perhaps that image quality is his primary concern rather than cost and in that context he should keep the 5D3 or as another comment suggested, return both and get a 6D.

There are many aspects to image quality and most are not about pixel peeping or editing.  Noise is a biggie and in the well-lit daytime conditions that the OP did the test shots there will be very little noise in any image even from an iPhone.  Images at dusk, dawn, night, or indoors will be a different story.  Or images with deep shadow regions.

+1

The OP's question was only regarding the IQ and why he could not see a visible difference between the two cameras. . The majority of responses are addressed towards that. He has tested the cameras only upto ISO 800 so I guess he has not put the 5d3 through its paces.

To my understanding he never asked which camera he should keep.

And everyone suggesting he keep the 650D, have you considered that he may find the high ISO performance of the 5d3 useful or do you think he will always shoot in good lighting at ISOs below 800
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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2013, 10:27:34 AM »
The 5D3 will destroy the rebels IQ at higher ISOs, larger prints, and in sharpness from FF. In camera performance, the 5d3 can handle tricky AF situations that would make the rebel sweat. It's also sealed.

I wouldn't keep the rebel and you'll never need to buy another camera with the 5D3. You'll never outgrow it.
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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2013, 10:27:34 AM »

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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2013, 10:35:21 AM »
Maybe for a further test try setting both on auto iso and try to get some late day or lower light shots.  I assume you will do some wildlife shooting, so maybe head down to your local pond around sunset and try to get some twitty bird photos.  This could test situations in which you will need a high shutter speed and still be shooting at higher iso.  Let us now what you finally decide.

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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2013, 10:41:37 AM »
i bought a 5D Mark3 and a 650D at amazon.
now i have 24 days left to decide if i keep the 5D Mark3 or the 650D

what puzzles me is that the image quality is, as far as i can tell, exactly the same.
i bought a epson R3000 printer and when i print the files i can hardly see any difference.

It's hard to express the joy I get out of a post like this ;D

The reason you can hardly see a difference is because contrary to the exaggerated claims of some FF fans, there is hardly a difference at low to mid ISO. Properly processed and printed, a shot from Canon's 18 MP crop sensor in that ISO range will be indistinguishable from a shot from any of Canon's FF sensors. This is true at 13x19, 16x24, 20x30...any size actually.

At high ISO Canon's FF sensors start to show their edge. If you're shooting ISO 1600 or 3200 and making larger prints, you will observe improved IQ with the FF sensor. At 6400 and above the difference will be large. That said, Canon's 18 MP crop sensor makes very good prints through ISO 3200 with a little NR.

As to what you should do: I'm leaning towards the recommendation that you keep the 5D3 because of your trip. That's a once in a lifetime experience and the 5D3's AF, high ISO, and weather sealing will not let you down. I would maybe suggest returning it for a 7D if you need additional lenses for that trip and if you can use the money saved for that purpose. I don't know your budget so I can't make that call.

You mention wanting to buy a 24-70 zoom and a wider prime. What is your longest lens? If you are going to do any wildlife shooting on that trip, I would suggest budgeting for an additional telephoto. Canon's 300 f/4L IS and a 1.4x teleconverter (which could also be used with your 70-200), or a 100-400L.

If you can get the lenses you need and keep the 5D3, I would go that route. If you are going to be without a critical lens for the trip, consider the 7D plus the lens you need. Either way, try to keep the 650D for a backup. If you can't, take something as a backup, a P&S super zoom maybe. Again, it's a once in a lifetime event so make sure you're prepared.

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Re: a digital photography noob has a question about image quality
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2013, 10:41:37 AM »