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Author Topic: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?  (Read 12233 times)

OldGrey

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2013, 08:59:19 PM »
Sadly after being with Canon for over 30 years , I have to suggest that my view of this 4.2.2. upgrade is not good. When the new kids on the block are offering a camera with 10bit 4.2.2 RAW that will take my Canon glass  and record to SSD with a neat screen to view on for about the same price as the 5D3 ...........OH its not quite the same price you say , well add DaVinci Resolve 10.

Seriously not since good old Super Mario and Sonic had their graves dug by Sony and X Box have I seen established market leaders shown the door by upstarts. So unless this firmware ( whenever it arrives) manages to provide a hell of a lot more from the chip, like RAW 10 bit , its hardly worth all the playing about and buying toys for.  If its Video trade in fast  and go for a real upgrade, true 10 bit at 4 K will give  quality and longevity way over what you have.

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2013, 08:59:19 PM »

dirtcastle

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2013, 12:34:17 AM »
Sadly after being with Canon for over 30 years , I have to suggest that my view of this 4.2.2. upgrade is not good. When the new kids on the block are offering a camera with 10bit 4.2.2 RAW that will take my Canon glass  and record to SSD with a neat screen to view on for about the same price as the 5D3 ...........OH its not quite the same price you say , well add DaVinci Resolve 10.

Seriously not since good old Super Mario and Sonic had their graves dug by Sony and X Box have I seen established market leaders shown the door by upstarts. So unless this firmware ( whenever it arrives) manages to provide a hell of a lot more from the chip, like RAW 10 bit , its hardly worth all the playing about and buying toys for.  If its Video trade in fast  and go for a real upgrade, true 10 bit at 4 K will give  quality and longevity way over what you have.

I would be the first one to jump ship for a BMCC, but my understanding is that the total package (camera + peripherals) is still several thousand more. Plus, the BMCC has crop factor limitations. When it comes to video, every camera on the market seems to have its trade-offs.

The bottom line is that if you NEED something with better IQ/DR/resolution than a 5D3, there's nothing to lament or debate... just go get it. But that doesn't render the 5D3 a terrible camera. It can be a great performer (in the right hands, in the right circumstances), especially for the price.

charlesqian

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2013, 10:55:00 AM »
So I heard Canon Announced that in the April of 2013, or next month, the Canon 5D Mark iii would get an update which would allow for a clean HDMI output. Does this mean that we can use an external recorder such as the BlackMagic Hyperdeck Shuttle for external recording? If so, then can we actually record at a higher fps such as 60p at Full HD? if not, then what kind of impact does this have on videomakers? Thank You in Advance!

It won't give 60p. Hopefully the better compression will make a noticeable difference. Depends how much of the problems occur before the compression stage. Maybe not.

It won't give you noticeable difference, trust me. I'm using Canon 1D C with Atomos Ninja 2 external recorder. if you don't do heavy colour grading or keying/compositing, there is no difference at all.

1DC codes a lot better in camera than the 5D3 though no?

Only in 4k, so far as I know...

The 5D has a bad codec but also a bad image from the sensor. Fine for what it is but if you want good video step up to the C-line. In motion there will be no visible different in the HDMI clean signal. Blown up to 400% you'll begin to see something. For chroma keying MAYBE you will get a minor difference. This is a spec sheet upgrade so as not to fall behind the D800 in terms of perception, nothing more.

Actually 1DC's 4K is superb, and its Super 35mm is too.  Full HD is just so so.  It has a 60p slow motion in Full HD but not that good.

I think Canon's firmware update has two elements: 1) uncompressed clean HDMI output; 2) mirroring LCD and an external monitor.  The uncompresed clean HDMI output will let an external recorder such as Ninjia-2 records directly from a camera's sensor at 10 bit, 4:2:2 using ProRes or Avid DNxHD codecs.  It will have some difference compared with the original 8-bit, 4:2:0 with cameras like 5D MKIII etc..

marvinhello

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2013, 01:38:33 PM »
So I heard Canon Announced that in the April of 2013, or next month, the Canon 5D Mark iii would get an update which would allow for a clean HDMI output. Does this mean that we can use an external recorder such as the BlackMagic Hyperdeck Shuttle for external recording? If so, then can we actually record at a higher fps such as 60p at Full HD? if not, then what kind of impact does this have on videomakers? Thank You in Advance!

It won't give 60p. Hopefully the better compression will make a noticeable difference. Depends how much of the problems occur before the compression stage. Maybe not.

It won't give you noticeable difference, trust me. I'm using Canon 1D C with Atomos Ninja 2 external recorder. if you don't do heavy colour grading or keying/compositing, there is no difference at all.

1DC codes a lot better in camera than the 5D3 though no?

Only in 4k, so far as I know...

The 5D has a bad codec but also a bad image from the sensor. Fine for what it is but if you want good video step up to the C-line. In motion there will be no visible different in the HDMI clean signal. Blown up to 400% you'll begin to see something. For chroma keying MAYBE you will get a minor difference. This is a spec sheet upgrade so as not to fall behind the D800 in terms of perception, nothing more.

Actually 1DC's 4K is superb, and its Super 35mm is too.  Full HD is just so so.  It has a 60p slow motion in Full HD but not that good.

I think Canon's firmware update has two elements: 1) uncompressed clean HDMI output; 2) mirroring LCD and an external monitor.  The uncompresed clean HDMI output will let an external recorder such as Ninjia-2 records directly from a camera's sensor at 10 bit, 4:2:2 using ProRes or Avid DNxHD codecs.  It will have some difference compared with the original 8-bit, 4:2:0 with cameras like 5D MKIII etc..

It's still 8bit in a 10bit container if you record on Ninja 2, the additional 2bits are just zero.

thornie

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2013, 04:07:12 PM »
Sadly after being with Canon for over 30 years , I have to suggest that my view of this 4.2.2. upgrade is not good. When the new kids on the block are offering a camera with 10bit 4.2.2 RAW that will take my Canon glass  and record to SSD with a neat screen to view on for about the same price as the 5D3 ...........OH its not quite the same price you say , well add DaVinci Resolve 10.

Seriously not since good old Super Mario and Sonic had their graves dug by Sony and X Box have I seen established market leaders shown the door by upstarts. So unless this firmware ( whenever it arrives) manages to provide a hell of a lot more from the chip, like RAW 10 bit , its hardly worth all the playing about and buying toys for.  If its Video trade in fast  and go for a real upgrade, true 10 bit at 4 K will give  quality and longevity way over what you have.

I somewhat agree with you sentiment/disappointment.  I think what is happening right now in the HD video world is bigger than just Canon or any other DSLR manufacturer.  I think more and more people are starting to move away from shooting with DSLRs and are embracing a lot of the newer solutions out there, such as the BMCC or the C100.  When the 5D mkii was starting to be used by more and more videographers, there was really nothing like it.  The market has caught up and is now offering a much wider and varied assortment of cameras that all hover in the same price range.  If you are never going to shoot stills, why invest in the 5D mkIII?  $1-$2k more gets you a BMCC, C100, or an FS100.  Canon didn't as much lose their market share as they were overshadowed by newer, affordable, specialized equipment.  DSLR shooting had a great run, but it's no longer the only option out there for indie film makers/videographers.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 04:09:55 PM by thornie »

HurtinMinorKey

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2013, 04:23:28 PM »
Yah, I just jumped ship to the BMCC. I ordered from Adorama last night, and i already got a notice that it is shipping this week. I guess they've figures out their supply issues.

I waited as long as I could for Canon to give me something with raw that was affordable. I like to grade my video like i grade my pictures, and there was no way i could do this with Canon.

Hopefully they'll come around soon.

JasonATL

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2013, 05:19:17 PM »
Yah, I just jumped ship to the BMCC. I ordered from Adorama last night, and i already got a notice that it is shipping this week. I guess they've figures out their supply issues.

I waited as long as I could for Canon to give me something with raw that was affordable. I like to grade my video like i grade my pictures, and there was no way i could do this with Canon.

Hopefully they'll come around soon.

Congratulations! I suspect that you will like it and produce some very nice moving images with it.

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2013, 05:19:17 PM »

Axilrod

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2013, 01:45:12 PM »
Yah, I just jumped ship to the BMCC. I ordered from Adorama last night, and i already got a notice that it is shipping this week. I guess they've figures out their supply issues.

I waited as long as I could for Canon to give me something with raw that was affordable. I like to grade my video like i grade my pictures, and there was no way i could do this with Canon.

Hopefully they'll come around soon.

I would seriously consider waiting on the Blackmagic Production cam, it's definitely going to ship in July and a lot more camera for less than $1k more.  I preordered it and the pocket cam, both are going to be stellar.
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OldGrey

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2013, 11:14:02 PM »
The bottom line is that if you NEED something with better IQ/DR/resolution than a 5D3, there's nothing to lament or debate... just go get it. But that doesn't render the 5D3 a terrible camera. It can be a great performer (in the right hands, in the right circumstances), especially for the price.
[/quote]

Hi sorry I was not able to watch this comment.... guess the point I was making is that if you buy a 5D3 and then go for a ninja or shuttle or whatever to use the HDMI all you will get is 1080 in 8 bit 4.2.2.  To get there you would have spent more on the 5D3 and the Ninja  than a BMC Production camera. OK both need solid stste drives and batteries, neither will work for long on the on-board power.  The Black Magic however will shoot 4k 10bit 4.2.2 for your quick stuff and RAW if your after a lot more.  So how can you sell anyone interested in Video the idea that archiving clips on 1080 , loosing the ability to reframe/zoom  within your footage, shoot true 10 bit and have RAW if you need it  at the same price is not a no brainer ?????
Sorry I think BMC don't have the 100,300, 500  1Dc to protect  and a marketing department to hold back the chances of Canon being able to compete.  Truth is if there were no Magic Lantern firmware updates to worry about, no BMC  to chase I don't think Canon would be producing this firmware in anything like the same way.

After all the "quality" measures have been pondered, lets not forget the global shutter  and the pleasure of being able to pan in an urban setting without fear of the straight line !

See the danger here is for a company that seeing the changes to come has begun to talk of conversion of 4k footage for stills, prints, weddings , magazines , brochures and all manner of old school stills uses ..and then sadly lost the grip on the very future they have shown !

Thank you SEGA for Sonik and the market you  created for XBOX !

dirtcastle

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2013, 04:02:40 AM »
Hi sorry I was not able to watch this comment.... guess the point I was making is that if you buy a 5D3 and then go for a ninja or shuttle or whatever to use the HDMI all you will get is 1080 in 8 bit 4.2.2.  To get there you would have spent more on the 5D3 and the Ninja  than a BMC Production camera. OK both need solid stste drives and batteries, neither will work for long on the on-board power.  The Black Magic however will shoot 4k 10bit 4.2.2 for your quick stuff and RAW if your after a lot more.  So how can you sell anyone interested in Video the idea that archiving clips on 1080 , loosing the ability to reframe/zoom  within your footage, shoot true 10 bit and have RAW if you need it  at the same price is not a no brainer ?????
Sorry I think BMC don't have the 100,300, 500  1Dc to protect  and a marketing department to hold back the chances of Canon being able to compete.  Truth is if there were no Magic Lantern firmware updates to worry about, no BMC  to chase I don't think Canon would be producing this firmware in anything like the same way.

After all the "quality" measures have been pondered, lets not forget the global shutter  and the pleasure of being able to pan in an urban setting without fear of the straight line !

Nobody denies the fact that Blackmagic cameras output higher quality video than the 5D3, for around the same price.

BUT BUT BUT... if you want an all-day, highly portable, run-and-gun camera that shoots FULL-FRAME, whose battery/storage options are much cheaper and lighter... the 5D3 would seem like a better option.

For me, the portability of the 5D3, combined with my existing set of Canon lenses makes the 5D3 a much better deal FOR ME (can you dig?). Plus, I'm also a stills shooter.

Having said that... if budget were not an issue... I would get a BM too. :-) And I would get an Epic, a Phantom, etc.

HurtinMinorKey

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2013, 11:56:03 AM »
I would seriously consider waiting on the Blackmagic Production cam, it's definitely going to ship in July and a lot more camera for less than $1k more.  I preordered it and the pocket cam, both are going to be stellar.

Why i didn't get a BMPC in short: less DR, no uncompressed RAW, more expensive.  Remember, it's a different sensor, so no guarantee that it's going to have the same beautiful image. 

Indeed, once we start seeing vids, i may regret my decision. But i figure the reason someone gets a BMCC(as opposed to a 5D3) is for the DR and the complete control over it in post.  So why would i want to compromise either of those for the BMPC?

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2013, 01:31:34 PM »
Yah, I just jumped ship to the BMCC. I ordered from Adorama last night, and i already got a notice that it is shipping this week. I guess they've figures out their supply issues.

I waited as long as I could for Canon to give me something with raw that was affordable. I like to grade my video like i grade my pictures, and there was no way i could do this with Canon.

Hopefully they'll come around soon.

I would seriously consider waiting on the Blackmagic Production cam, it's definitely going to ship in July and a lot more camera for less than $1k more.  I preordered it and the pocket cam, both are going to be stellar.

Although it depends on type of kit you have elsewhere... RAW video eats disk space like there's no tomorrow. And the CPU and RAM requirements for working in RAW 4k aren't to be trifled at either. Happy to kit your post facility with a load of high end workstation computers and a 20 tb raid array - go for the 4k RAW system. Want to stick with your current 2 year old iMac - don't bother.

If you're happy with the additional costs throughout your entire production workflow then the BMC4k looks like it'll be fantastic - but for a lot of people/places which aren't dedicated production companies the extra expenses across the board make it the C100 look like a better option.

As for the 5Dmiii firmware - we'll have to wait and see how much of an improvement it provides in terms of IQ. Until it's been tested we wont know for sure, but it wont turn the 5dmiii into something that will outperform a C300.

In 2008 DSLR video was ahead of the competition (in terms of sensor size/aesthetic potential vs cost - people forget how badly the 5dmii sucked in many ways for video on release). Expecting things to simply stay that way was always unrealistic - and here we are four and half years later with a range of cameras including the three BMC's, the GH3 (for those on a shoestring budget), 1DC, C100/300, FS100/700, Red Scarlet which all do video better than DSLRs.

That doesn't mean that you can't still make stunning work with a DSLR - or that they aren't still a very tempting option for people who do both stills and video: only that most high end video production companies will use the dedicated video tools that don't have a load of (to them useless) photgraphy features. For example the autofocus system on the 5diii is great for stills - and completely useless for video. Expecting devices which don't have most of their R&D budget going into features that wont be used to outcompete dedicated video devices doesn't make a lot of sense.

Axilrod

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2013, 12:57:38 PM »
Why i didn't get a BMPC in short: less DR, no uncompressed RAW, more expensive.  Remember, it's a different sensor, so no guarantee that it's going to have the same beautiful image. 

Indeed, once we start seeing vids, i may regret my decision. But i figure the reason someone gets a BMCC(as opposed to a 5D3) is for the DR and the complete control over it in post.  So why would i want to compromise either of those for the BMPC?

1 stop less DR (but still more than the 5D3), but the Global Shutter and Super 35mm crop (the 2.3x on the BMCC was too much for me) and I'm all for compressed RAW, it's still a hell of a lot more flexible than H.264 DSLR files.  I shot with the BMCC for one weekend and the resulting files were ridiculously huge and my 3.4 i7 iMac with SSD's/32GB RAM/2GB Video/Thunderbolt Drives could barely even play them.  I wouldn't shoot 2.5K on that thing unless I was trying to make some award winning stuff, it's just not worth it. 

To me it seems like Blackmagic Design priced the production cam that way to discourage people from buying the BMCC.  They are taking the old BMCC bodies, putting in the new sensor and slapping a 4K sticker on it and taking the old sensors and putting them in the Pocket cams, it's pretty genius really. 

Either way any of the cameras mentioned here can produce great images if used correctly, but the BMPC has the specs I've been looking for and at a ridiculously low price.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 01:05:24 PM by Axilrod »
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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2013, 12:57:38 PM »

Axilrod

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2013, 01:10:25 PM »

Although it depends on type of kit you have elsewhere... RAW video eats disk space like there's no tomorrow. And the CPU and RAM requirements for working in RAW 4k aren't to be trifled at either. Happy to kit your post facility with a load of high end workstation computers and a 20 tb raid array - go for the 4k RAW system. Want to stick with your current 2 year old iMac - don't bother.

If you're happy with the additional costs throughout your entire production workflow then the BMC4k looks like it'll be fantastic - but for a lot of people/places which aren't dedicated production companies the extra expenses across the board make it the C100 look like a better option.

As for the 5Dmiii firmware - we'll have to wait and see how much of an improvement it provides in terms of IQ. Until it's been tested we wont know for sure, but it wont turn the 5dmiii into something that will outperform a C300.

In 2008 DSLR video was ahead of the competition (in terms of sensor size/aesthetic potential vs cost - people forget how badly the 5dmii sucked in many ways for video on release). Expecting things to simply stay that way was always unrealistic - and here we are four and half years later with a range of cameras including the three BMC's, the GH3 (for those on a shoestring budget), 1DC, C100/300, FS100/700, Red Scarlet which all do video better than DSLRs.

That doesn't mean that you can't still make stunning work with a DSLR - or that they aren't still a very tempting option for people who do both stills and video: only that most high end video production companies will use the dedicated video tools that don't have a load of (to them useless) photgraphy features. For example the autofocus system on the 5diii is great for stills - and completely useless for video. Expecting devices which don't have most of their R&D budget going into features that wont be used to outcompete dedicated video devices doesn't make a lot of sense.

The BMPC shoots compressed RAW, and you're right, my brand new maxed out iMac with Thunderbolt drives could barely play the BMCC RAW files, so hopefully it will be able to play the compressed RAW from the BMPC.  If not I hear Apple is releasing new Mac Pro's this year, so i'll get one of those if need be.

I never said you can't make great stuff with DSLR's, I've shot hours and hours of material this year on DSLR's and it all looks excellent.  Proper lighting can make all the difference in the world regardless of the camera.  DSLR's have served me well, but I've been yearning for a proper video camera for the past few years.  Almost picked up an FS700 used for $6k but by the time I called the guy it was gone, so I'm gonna give this one a try. 
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HurtinMinorKey

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2013, 11:38:06 AM »
I shot with the BMCC for one weekend and the resulting files were ridiculously huge and my 3.4 i7 iMac with SSD's/32GB RAM/2GB Video/Thunderbolt Drives could barely even play them.  I wouldn't shoot 2.5K on that thing unless I was trying to make some award winning stuff, it's just not worth it. 

I'm assuming you had the iMac with the AMD GPU? I hear that Resolve really requires Nvidia. I've heard that the new iMac (late 2012) runs the RAW files very well. I hope so, because i just ordered one, after taking a very long hard look at Windows workstations! Please let me know if i am mistaken.

To me it seems like Blackmagic Design priced the production cam that way to discourage people from buying the BMCC.  They are taking the old BMCC bodies, putting in the new sensor and slapping a 4K sticker on it and taking the old sensors and putting them in the Pocket cams, it's pretty genius really. 

Either way any of the cameras mentioned here can produce great images if used correctly, but the BMPC has the specs I've been looking for and at a ridiculously low price.

I agree, however, I think it is quite possible that the $1000 difference between cameras will be pure margin for black magic. In other words, the components of the BMPC will cost the same (or less) than the BMCC.  But that's pure speculation on my part.

My biggest fear is that the 7D2 will do something like full raw recording for 30-60 seconds.  I would have jumped at something like that.   I love my 5D2, and always will,  so I'm really hoping that Canon makes a comeback.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 11:50:06 AM by HurtinMinorKey »

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2013, 11:38:06 AM »