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Author Topic: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!  (Read 41668 times)

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #195 on: March 23, 2013, 11:15:12 PM »
Does anyone remember the film days, when a new camera model was introduced every five years or more?  Now anything over a year and people are freaking out.  I started on the fantastic manual Pentax K1000 which had about a 20 year production run (and I am pretty sure is the best selling camera model of all time).

Yes, but as see below did they come out with an EOS651 and EOS652 just to put a new dial on them? No and look below:

Quote
OK, the t5i does seem unnecessary - why not stick with t4i? 

Exactly this one is a total waste. Waste of time making all new info for it, tooling up new housings, etc. Just keep the t4i out there another year then (with firmware update to add AMFA). How on earth can it not have at least gotten the wifi/network stuff?


Quote
As for AFMA, I use a 5D2, I have large aperture lenses, and I have never had a need for AFMA.  Plus, no one is using large aperture lenses on these cameras and it would just be another confusing menu item.  I teach beginning photo classes at my lab and trust me, there are way too many menu options already - the average person does not want and will never use all those settings.

Well, I have yet to find a body+lens combo that has worked best at AMFA 0.
I have found many cases where it made a radical difference.
I think the average person finds it more confusing when they aim at something and find the darn focus 3' in front what they aimed at in 2/3rd of their shots no?


uggg...most rebel users...and yes i know there are some that know what they're doing...most rebel users i encounter don't even know how to handle the AF system, they have it set tot he same damn all point active setting that it was on when it came out of the box.  I can't even count the # of times I've been confronted by one of these users at events, they all ask the same things but haven't even taken a peek at the manual.   The kind that say, whats that?, when they hear the word aperture.   Focus points?  What are those...these are the people that drive the rebel market!
Owns 5Dmkiii, 6D, 16-35mm, 24mm 1.4, 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 85 mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8 macro, 1-600RT, 2 430 EX's, 1 video light

jdramirez

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #196 on: March 23, 2013, 11:16:29 PM »
when I got my xs I  didn't know what afma was.   when I upgraded to my 60d, I  didn't know what afma  was.   when I found out what it was and that it was stripped from the 50d, I  was  super pissed.  I grow into my gear as I  get  better,  but it is annoying.

I started with a T1i, 17-55/2.8 IS and 85/1.8.  I knew enough to spend more on lens(es) than body, but nothing about AFMA.  Then I bought a 100L Macro IS, which noticeably backfocused, so I did some research.  I soon bought a 7D, and I'll never buy another AFMA-less body.
I walk around with the grand in lenses in my bag f1.4, f2.8, f3.5,  and f4.   I've gotten lucky more often than not and haven't had issues with back or front focussing.   But Canon basically admitted that the xxd  level owner it's proficient enough to warrant afma being in the camera.  I  could care less about the rebel series,  but it does annoy me it was stripped. 

 I'm getting a5d mkii  here shortly,  so it hasn't annoyed me so much that I switched to Nikon.
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100 f/2.8L->85mm f/1.8 USM->135L -> 8mm ->100L

jdramirez

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #197 on: March 23, 2013, 11:19:50 PM »
Does anyone remember the film days, when a new camera model was introduced every five years or more?  Now anything over a year and people are freaking out.  I started on the fantastic manual Pentax K1000 which had about a 20 year production run (and I am pretty sure is the best selling camera model of all time).

Yes, but as see below did they come out with an EOS651 and EOS652 just to put a new dial on them? No and look below:

Quote
OK, the t5i does seem unnecessary - why not stick with t4i? 

Exactly this one is a total waste. Waste of time making all new info for it, tooling up new housings, etc. Just keep the t4i out there another year then (with firmware update to add AMFA). How on earth can it not have at least gotten the wifi/network stuff?


Quote
As for AFMA, I use a 5D2, I have large aperture lenses, and I have never had a need for AFMA.  Plus, no one is using large aperture lenses on these cameras and it would just be another confusing menu item.  I teach beginning photo classes at my lab and trust me, there are way too many menu options already - the average person does not want and will never use all those settings.

Well, I have yet to find a body+lens combo that has worked best at AMFA 0.
I have found many cases where it made a radical difference.
I think the average person finds it more confusing when they aim at something and find the darn focus 3' in front what they aimed at in 2/3rd of their shots no?


uggg...most rebel users...and yes i know there are some that know what they're doing...most rebel users i encounter don't even know how to handle the AF system, they have it set tot he same damn all point active setting that it was on when it came out of the box.  I can't even count the # of times I've been confronted by one of these users at events, they all ask the same things but haven't even taken a peek at the manual.   The kind that say, whats that?, when they hear the word aperture.   Focus points?  What are those...these are the people that drive the rebel market!
But without them Canon wouldn't have nearly the profits to do all the necessary r&d...  so think of them as the tax payer that helps to build the b2  bomber.
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100 f/2.8L->85mm f/1.8 USM->135L -> 8mm ->100L

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #198 on: March 23, 2013, 11:22:09 PM »
Skiltron, the point is the average rebel user isn't an above average photographer... it's a person who goes to costco and see's a rebel as splurging...  It's the realtor that would rather do their own photos rather than pay for a pro to do them for them and wonder why the photos dont look right...  It's that soccer mom who wants to take the photos of little jimmy and dont give a rats butt about the horrid noise...  Then they read in the manual that oh yeah, it has afma, and has NO clue how to do it, or dont even read the manual in the first place and dont even know it's there... then canon has to deal with the morons who buy the camera, reads about afma, and then calls them asking how to do it, and have their employees on the phone with the people for 10-15 minutes at a time trying to talk them through it, wasting their time and money...  It's stupid... it's advanced... It's like getting a hyundai accent and complaining it has a stick shift saying it should have pedal shifters instead.  It's more than enough camera for what that target market is aimed for.

awinphoto i tell you a secret!

MONEY has nothing to do with intelligence, artistic vision or knowledge about a certain topic.

but MONEY does have much to do with what people can AFFORD!

what i want to say, there are A LOT of people who could make very good use of AFMA but can not afford a body with that feature.
or they wisely chose to invest the limited budget they have in lenses not bodys.

as mentioned before by someone, AFMA is a feature to fix canons own shortcomings in the manufacturing process. it should be a standard feature!

I can only go back to the car analogy - small cars can have AWD and anti-lock breaks.  I live in the northeast, so I can get a lot of use of ABS and AWD.  But to get those features, your buying something more expensive, and probably less gas efficient.  Can you still stop your car without ABS?  Yeah, just pump the breaks! 

Limited budget means be savvy all around, not just on the camera body!
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awinphoto

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #199 on: March 23, 2013, 11:54:07 PM »

Yep, when clients are reacting when they see the photos from my 5d3, we ALL know they say "damn that's too bad you didn't have more DR or a 36 mega pixel camera". But, what one of my top models DID tell me that she hated my camera because it has too much detail and shows all her imperfections. Rebel is a rebel, no more no less. Whatever did we do when we had the 10d, 20d, 30d, 40d, 5d classic... The 60d has no reason it shouldn't have afma, but if the 70d doesn't have it, then panic

Yeah well maybe get out of the studio for once and shoot some giant landscapes that can't be lit with flashes or umbrellas....

You just dont get it [/shakes head]...  The day landscapes pay me the money studio does, then I will look at things differently... then again, when I do go out and about, I know what i'm doing, i know what filters I need and I dont fret DR... 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

elflord

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #200 on: March 24, 2013, 12:10:03 AM »
So why the heck did Canon "cripple" the 5DIII by omitting so many features?  Why doesn't the 5DIII have fabulous built-in creative filters like Toy Camera and Grainy Black & White?  Is Canon just being greedy?

This is the first time I've heard anyone complain about this feature, and it is in jest. I agree that it is possible for a feature to have zero or even negative marginal value, and that in-camera art filters on a pro body  would have no or negative marginal value (if they were high enough in the decision tree to be accessible they would have a negative marginal value because of the resulting clutter, otherwise it would be about 0)

I don't agree that AFMA on rebel bodies is such a feature.

For one, AFMA is completely usable even if it's buried under layers of menus, because it doesn't need to be manipulated during day to day shooting -- it is only adjusted in controlled (e.g. non time critical) settings. Even on the 5DII (for example) it's buried in a 3 layer menu (go to the right tab, then select AF/other, then select micro adjust).

I don't understand why putting that in the Rebel would overly complicate things. They do already have equally confusing items (e.g. such as a two axis white balance adjustment which would have even many advanced users scratching their heads)

Art filters by contrast in cameras that have them tend to occupy spots close to the top of the decision heirarchy (sometimes they are actually hardwired into the manual controls which would be incredibly annoying for most 1D and 5D series users). They need to be done this way to be quickly accessible.

Quote
Of course, different users have different expectations.

Of course, but my point is that one of the reasons people buy inexpensive cameras is because of budgetery constraints, not because they are unsophisticated users.

I do agree with you that Canon's point of view seems to be that the Rebel line is unsuitable for the more sophisticated user. A savvy user on a budget probably shouldn't buy a rebel.

I simply don't believe your contention that Canon's reason for omitting this feature from their Rebel (or there XXD bodies from which it was removed) is to avoid adding "unwanted features". In fact on the contrary it looks like the point is to send a message to advanced users who might otherwise purchase rebel series bodies that they really should step up and buy one of their more expensive offerings.

cccp80

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #201 on: March 24, 2013, 12:26:05 AM »
Sorry it's confusing but the camera model that shows up beneath our names has nothing to do with what we own. I own a 5DII and a micro 4/3 camera. Before that I had an old Rebel (XS).

The standard deviation and the "tolerance range" in number of  AFMA units are not fixed quantities -- variability of the AF will depend on things like subject distance, and available lighting (either ambient or flash/ AF assist). Then the range for which an object appears to be in focus could be 2 or 3 or 5 standard deviations depending on depth of field.

Roger at Lens Rentals had some tests where he looked at the variability of autofocus of some different bodies (including the 5DIII) with some different lenses. My recollection was that with many tested lenses, phase detection on the 5DIII is more consistent than older bodies. Contrast detect (used in live view and on mirrorless bodies) is more accurate but slower. I'd suggest searching lensrentals for the article if you are intersted, it was a good read.

Found the article you were talking about. There are 3 parts and you were right, very good read!

Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #202 on: March 24, 2013, 02:20:26 AM »
So why the heck did Canon "cripple" the 5DIII by omitting so many features?  Why doesn't the 5DIII have fabulous built-in creative filters like Toy Camera and Grainy Black & White?  Is Canon just being greedy?

This is the first time I've heard anyone complain about this feature, and it is in jest. I agree that it is possible for a feature to have zero or even negative marginal value, and that in-camera art filters on a pro body  would have no or negative marginal value (if they were high enough in the decision tree to be accessible they would have a negative marginal value because of the resulting clutter, otherwise it would be about 0)

I don't agree that AFMA on rebel bodies is such a feature.

For one, AFMA is completely usable even if it's buried under layers of menus, because it doesn't need to be manipulated during day to day shooting -- it is only adjusted in controlled (e.g. non time critical) settings. Even on the 5DII (for example) it's buried in a 3 layer menu (go to the right tab, then select AF/other, then select micro adjust).

I don't understand why putting that in the Rebel would overly complicate things. They do already have equally confusing items (e.g. such as a two axis white balance adjustment which would have even many advanced users scratching their heads)

Art filters by contrast in cameras that have them tend to occupy spots close to the top of the decision heirarchy (sometimes they are actually hardwired into the manual controls which would be incredibly annoying for most 1D and 5D series users). They need to be done this way to be quickly accessible.

Quote
Of course, different users have different expectations.

Of course, but my point is that one of the reasons people buy inexpensive cameras is because of budgetery constraints, not because they are unsophisticated users.

I do agree with you that Canon's point of view seems to be that the Rebel line is unsuitable for the more sophisticated user. A savvy user on a budget probably shouldn't buy a rebel.

I simply don't believe your contention that Canon's reason for omitting this feature from their Rebel (or there XXD bodies from which it was removed) is to avoid adding "unwanted features". In fact on the contrary it looks like the point is to send a message to advanced users who might otherwise purchase rebel series bodies that they really should step up and buy one of their more expensive offerings.

So you understand that if the 5DIII were loaded with beginner "creative filters" and "scene modes", it may well drive a potential purchaser to a competitor's product that was more rationally designed for its intended buyer.  Not only would it cost something to include these features in the software, but it may well cost a manufacturer sales and good will, and earn it a reputation for poor and bloated design.  Remember how many people complained about the useless "Print" button on the 5D (never mind that some people actually used it)?  Likewise, loading a basic camera with advanced features may well turn away potential buyers.  They may prefer a competitor's model that isn't cluttered with features they didn't want and would never use.

My point is that when people on gear forums say there is "no reason" not to include some feature, in fact there may be a very good reason from the manufacturer's perspective.  There may be a 100,000 good reasons ... i.e., a great many customers for that camera, not the small number of people who frequent gear forums to commiserate about how they feel cheated.  You can probably find a small number of people who insist that some sports car should come "standard" with a towing hitch so they can tow their motorcycle or boat.  But that's not a convincing reason for a car company to design their sports car with a towing hitch, and that towing hitch may well turn away a lot of their potential buyers.

And if the point is to send a message, as you say, to advanced users that they really should step up, well that is a perfectly valid business decision.  It's not so different from the business decision to omit lots of cool features from the "crippled" 5D3 that are found in the much cheaper SL1. That omission sends a message too.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 02:29:44 AM by Zlatko »

M.ST

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #203 on: March 24, 2013, 04:28:27 AM »
The big innovation is, that there is no innovation and you pay a lot more than for a 650D.

We need a 7D mark II with a cf card slot, a 5D Mark IV or higher with a cf card slot and a lot of lens replacements or new lenses.



aznable

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #204 on: March 24, 2013, 05:00:18 AM »
The big innovation is, that there is no innovation and you pay a lot more than for a 650D.

We need a 7D mark II with a cf card slot, a 5D Mark IV or higher with a cf card slot and a lot of lens replacements or new lenses.

you forgot aps-h sensor for 7d and a 20 stop BSI sensor for 5d mk iv
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Hillsilly

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #205 on: March 24, 2013, 05:16:33 AM »
My Car analogy - a tale of two industries.

First we have the car industry.  The industry is very competitive, with several dozen manufacturers fighting for each sale. While the cars are built for a price point, every possible enhancement is crammed in.  The car industry loves low-cost features and they know the absence of them will drive some buyers to other makes.  Everything from multiple baby seat anchor points to  bluetooth connectivity and ipod connections are being crammed in there.  If it doesn't add significantly to the cost, its in.  And those items that aren't standard features can often be added through the dealership as an option extra or through aftermarket suppliers. 

Behind the scenes, designers and engineers are working on new technologies to make cars more efficient, safer, and better to drive.  Competition has made the following almost universally standard - Air conditioning, ABS, rear reversing cameras, self parking cars, voice activation, WiFi, airbags (often up to 10), traction control, blind spot monitoring, GPS, seats that remember the preferred position of different drivers, keyless entry...I could go on, but you get my point. 

And then we have the camera industry, which has only two big players in DSLRs.  While the big guys are seen to be competitive, the fact that they can drop key, low cost, technologies to drive customers to higher priced models, and get away with it, suggests that competition isn't that fierce. 

Now, I'm not knocking Canon.  If it is a successful strategy, great.  And consumers can research the features of cameras before buying them.  And they can choose to buy different cameras that might meet their needs better.  But I think any comparison with the motor vehicle industry is a little tenuous.
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Marsu42

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #206 on: March 24, 2013, 06:51:36 AM »
We need a 7D mark II with a cf card slot, a 5D Mark IV or higher with a cf card slot and a lot of lens replacements or new lenses.

What's so important about cf cards (or was that irony)? For my money, I want dual sd cards - smaller and also very fast.

This is not far from the truth.  In October 2011, Canon announced that the 50 millionth EOS cameras and 70 millionth EF lens was produced.  1.4 lenses to each body.

It's be really interesting if the ef-s lenses are included - but even if not this proves Canon marketing's efficiency, they manage to make people buy new camera bodies all the time - just like Intel/AMD convince users to change their mainboard/memory alongside their cpu but at the same time market them as "changeable".

elflord

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #207 on: March 24, 2013, 08:26:08 AM »
My point is that when people on gear forums say there is "no reason" not to include some feature, in fact there may be a very good reason from the manufacturer's perspective.  There may be a 100,000 good reasons ...

Yet you haven't stated any for the feature that we are discussing (AFMA). Instead, you have brought up two features that are not analogous -- art filters and the print button (my comments about the art filters apply to the print button -- it's at the top level)

Also you mention it costs something to add a feature in software but gross costs are not the same thing as marginal costs. The marginal cost of putting AFMA in rebel bodies would not be very substantial (they already have the software for this)

Quote
But that's not a convincing reason for a car company to design their sports car with a towing hitch, and that towing hitch may well turn away a lot of their potential buyers.

You're doing a great job of coming up with analogies that are not relevant, but not such a great job of addressing the issue at hand (which is again, AFMA)

Quote
And if the point is to send a message, as you say, to advanced users that they really should step up, well that is a perfectly valid business decision.

Well, you are welcome to defend it as a business decision. However, Canon's policy of going out of their way to cripple their lower end products does make them less attractive (and difficult to recommend to someone on a tight budget!)

Also, whatever you might say about the "majority of rebel users" -- I wonder how many 5-series and 1-series users start out as Rebel users ? (I did) There is a delicate balance here -- they do want to be able to encourage these people to ultimately upgrade to a 5 or 1 series body but they don't want to make the entry level body so awful that these users start out with a different manufacturer.

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #208 on: March 24, 2013, 08:52:39 AM »
Also, whatever you might say about the "majority of rebel users" -- I wonder how many 5-series and 1-series users start out as Rebel users ? (I did) There is a delicate balance here -- they do want to be able to encourage these people to ultimately upgrade to a 5 or 1 series body but they don't want to make the entry level body so awful that these users start out with a different manufacturer.

As did I.  So for us at least, and I suspect there are lots of others like us, it seems their 'cripple the low end to drive up-marketing' strategy is working rather well.  ;)
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elflord

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #209 on: March 24, 2013, 09:26:44 AM »
Also, whatever you might say about the "majority of rebel users" -- I wonder how many 5-series and 1-series users start out as Rebel users ? (I did) There is a delicate balance here -- they do want to be able to encourage these people to ultimately upgrade to a 5 or 1 series body but they don't want to make the entry level body so awful that these users start out with a different manufacturer.

As did I.  So for us at least, and I suspect there are lots of others like us, it seems their 'cripple the low end to drive up-marketing' strategy is working rather well.  ;)

I suspect that there are many more who are not "like us" -- we have more disposable income than the typical hobbyists.