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Author Topic: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]  (Read 65484 times)

Skulker

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #180 on: April 11, 2013, 02:57:34 PM »
Why does this turn into a discussion on sales?  I just want some new news on the camera!  LOL!   ;D

I think its because some people seem to want to come on here and convince everyone that they would be better of buying Nikon's. Quite frankly if I got pictures as bad as they do  ::), if the samples they put on here are to be believed, I would change. But I don't so I won't  :)

I still cant see the point of all those Megapixels, I was hoping that some one might tell what they do with them all. So far apart from some pixel peeping I haven't got much idea what they are going to do with them all.
If you debate with a fool onlookers can find it VERY difficult to tell the difference.

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #180 on: April 11, 2013, 02:57:34 PM »

RLPhoto

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #181 on: April 11, 2013, 05:43:43 PM »
well, the megapixels gives you freedom , the DR also.
IF Canon has the same camera as Nikon, what should your answer be then?
I do not like resolution, or a great DR

I like 24L II, 50L, 85L, 135L. :|

9VIII

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #182 on: April 11, 2013, 07:15:53 PM »
Why does this turn into a discussion on sales?  I just want some new news on the camera!  LOL!   ;D

I think its because some people seem to want to come on here and convince everyone that they would be better of buying Nikon's. Quite frankly if I got pictures as bad as they do  ::), if the samples they put on here are to be believed, I would change. But I don't so I won't  :)

I still cant see the point of all those Megapixels, I was hoping that some one might tell what they do with them all. So far apart from some pixel peeping I haven't got much idea what they are going to do with them all.

Ever heard of Gigapan?
Everyone using those will be grateful when higher resolution cameras are more common.

RLPhoto

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #183 on: April 11, 2013, 10:02:42 PM »
nice, I have them also, but DXO means that the sigma 85mm is better than my Canon 85/1.2mk2, and cheaper.
what to do?what to do?

The sigma 85mm does not render better than the 85L II. It just doesn't.

jrista

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #184 on: April 12, 2013, 12:19:12 AM »
...
You realize your last three points, DR, Low ISO Noise, and Shadow Recovery....are really all the same thing, right? Dynamic Range IS effectively a measure of noise,

No, DR is not a measure of noise. You could have 3 stops of DR and lots of noise. Similarly you could have 3 stops of DR and no noise. They are not combined.

Your thinking photon shot noise. I mean read noise. Dynamic range is the ratio from the brightest highlight (the clipping point) and the read noise floor (that may be the RMS, the maximum, the square root, depends on the exact method of determining DR). However you calculate it, dynamic range is specifically limited by read noise.

Quote
Shadow recovery is simply a benefit of low ISO read noise. So, in your little table, there are really three points total: Live View, Silent Shooting, and Dynamic Range. The 5D III wins hands down on two points. The D800 wins hands down on one. If you throw in High ISO dynamic range (or High ISO SNR), then the 5D III wins on another point.

Or to rephrase this, Canon wins on using the camera but the Nikon wins on producing quality images. Personally, I don't even know why "Silent Shooting" makes it to the list.

Silent Shooting makes the list because a huge number of customers asked for a quieter shutter. Canon gave their customers what they asked for. Same deal with the AF system...Canon gave a very vocal and very large user base exactly what they wanted: a better AF system. Again, same deal with fewer megapixels and better high ISO. That was probably the biggest thing Canon customers asked for, including myself and pretty much everyone I know.

When it comes to listening to their customers, Canon wins every time in every way. Can't really get better than that, and given their track record, it shouldn't be long before Canon gives their customers something with better DR as well. The only reason they haven't is because the DR game only really changed with the D800, and that was released about the same time as the 5D III. Now people are asking for it, and I have no doubt Canon will deliver.

Quote
A two-shot HDR blend will also take care of any DR problems you have quite nicely (if you push it to the extremes, a two-shot HDR blend could be separated by 10 stops (+5 and -5), allowing ~16-18 stops of DR in the final 32-bit HDR image...more than enough.) HDR blending is a simple ordeal these days as well. Is it less convenient? Sure, by a very small amount.

Sure, but you can do the exact same HDR tricks with the D800 and to even greater effect than with Canon.

You would only have about two extra stops of DR with the D800, regardless of whether your talking about a single-shot context or HDR context. We already knew the D800 had two extra stops of DR, though.

Quote
Enough to warrant spending thousands, maybe tens of thousands, switching brands just to have the D800?

Probably not. Canon will figure out their sensor stuff soon enough, and they'll be back in the game.

What if Canon can't/don't figure it out?

Hypothetically speaking...nothing changes. People are still buying Canon cameras in huge volumes. Canon's worldwide market share wavers up and down a few percent every few years. I don't foresee that changing. DR is not the only thing that matters, certainly doesn't seem to be impacting Canon's sales to any meaningful degree. So, those who want more DR will move off to Nikon, or add Nikon to their kits, and keep using both brands.

Either way, assuming Canon is literally incapable of competing on the DR front, I don't really foresee any major change, not unless someone comes out with a 16-bit ADC with 15 stops or more of DR. If that happens, then I think the game would change. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

How long has it been since the 5D Mark II came out now?

Irrelevant.

And in all that time, we haven't seen any evidence of a sensor that is any better - or rather Nikon have made great advances with their sensors, Canon haven't moved...

Why is it that you Nikon radical fanboys refuse to see the areas where Canon sensors HAVE improved? Canon sensors HAVE improved! Canon sensors currently have the best noise performance I've ever seen at high ISO. They also support the fastest readout rates of any DSLR sensor on the market at the current time (14fps @ ~19mp, or approximately a 500MB/second throughput rate).  I've seen clean, entirely usable ISO 51200 sports shots with the 1D X. I've seen usable ISO 12800 shots from several generations of Nikon cameras, but nothing at ISO 51200 from a Nikon that looked truly usable or anywhere nearly as clean as a 1D X shot...too much color noise, too much loss of detail (probably because every setting above ISO 12800 is a "fake" expanded setting, which is really just the same as ISO 12800 with a post-process digital exposure lift....we've been able to do that with software for years.)

It is not 100% about low ISO DR. The greater majority of photographers who use DSLR cameras, which includes sports, aviation, wildlife, bird, event, wedding and street photographers as well as photojournalists, tend to shoot at higher ISO settings. Much beyond ISO 400, DR is limited by physics. Even significant improvements in Q.E. result in marginal improvements in DR, if any. The only thing that really matters at high ISO is SNR.

In this respect, Canon owns the market. It's WHY they own the market. Canon cameras offer the best tools that support the greatest majority of photographers for the widest variety of photographic goals and styles. Canon sensors have most definitely improved in the last four years. The 5D II sensor wouldn't stand a chance against any one of the sensors from the 1D X, 5D III, 6D, hell even the SD1 seems to have a damn good sensor. DR isn't the only thing that matters, and while it may be the most important factor to some photographers, it is really the least important factor to most photographers.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 12:26:30 AM by jrista »

bdunbar79

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #185 on: April 12, 2013, 12:30:22 AM »
Yeah, because the 5D2 sensor and the 1DX sensor are the same.  No improvement whatsoever.
2 x 1DX
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GMCPhotographics

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #186 on: April 12, 2013, 09:49:06 AM »
well, the megapixels gives you freedom , the DR also.
IF Canon has the same camera as Nikon, what should your answer be then?
I do not like resolution, or a great DR

I like 24L II, 50L, 85L, 135L. :|

I have those as well...very nice lenses indeed. The 24L II is a real gem, I tried the Nikkor version on a D7000 when it was first launched and I was quite dissapointed in what I saw. It just seemed to miss focus a lot (randomly) and I didn't like the pictures from it either.
The 50L...well it's an odd ball but unique lens...I hope Canon replaces this with something worthy of the L moniker. My 85IIL is my most used Tele, it's just sublime. The results wide open are so sharp and beautiful...a truely unique and amazing piece of glass. The 135L is again quite unique. I don't use mine as much as I used to, great results and lovely images. But these days I tend to go for my 70-200 f2.8 L IS II (I use it for larger wedding receptions). I'm kind of hoping Canon will replace it with an IS version which is F1.8...but still just as sweet optically! If Canon did this and made the MFD a lot closer, I could sell my 100mm IS L Macro and use this at weddings a lot more. My real sweet heart lens is still my 35mm f1.4 L, I've not tried the Nikkor or Sigma versions but I've been using my Canon copy for about 5 years now and I'm still thrilled with it. 
When I look at the Nikkor lens catalogue, there's nothing there which particularly inspires me. I've got better options in the Canon range.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 09:51:28 AM by GMCPhotographics »

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #186 on: April 12, 2013, 09:49:06 AM »

RLPhoto

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #187 on: April 12, 2013, 10:01:25 AM »
nice, I have them also, but DXO means that the sigma 85mm is better than my Canon 85/1.2mk2, and cheaper.
what to do?what to do?

The sigma 85mm does not render better than the 85L II. It just doesn't.

I didnt say that, I say that DXO gives the Sigma lens higher score than 85/1,2 mk2

There is more to a lens that just a score.  ;)

GMCPhotographics

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #188 on: April 12, 2013, 10:29:11 AM »
nice, I have them also, but DXO means that the sigma 85mm is better than my Canon 85/1.2mk2, and cheaper.
what to do?what to do?

The sigma 85mm does not render better than the 85L II. It just doesn't.

I didnt say that, I say that DXO gives the Sigma lens higher score than 85/1,2 mk2

There is more to a lens that just a score.  ;)

Their 85IIL must have been seriously out of spec and shows just how laughable DXO testing really is. My copy (which I use wide open all the time) is sharper than my 135IIL and 70-200 f2.8 L IS II. It's a stunning optic. I've tried the Sigma, it's was nice but not in the Canon league. It's Focussing was erratic and the images just don't look as nice....plus it's not quite as bright and certainly not as well built. The Canon 85IIL is an engineering masterpiece. My copy is now 5 years old and still looks new and it's had a hard life....good luck with your Sigma in that regard. I've had a lot of Sigma glass over the years and I've completely lost faith in the brand.

RLPhoto

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #189 on: April 12, 2013, 11:34:47 AM »
Agreed, but to say the 85L II is sharper than the 135L is stretch. Even though we're comparing razors to razors.

jrista

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #190 on: April 12, 2013, 01:32:00 PM »
nice, I have them also, but DXO means that the sigma 85mm is better than my Canon 85/1.2mk2, and cheaper.
what to do?what to do?

The sigma 85mm does not render better than the 85L II. It just doesn't.

I didnt say that, I say that DXO gives the Sigma lens higher score than 85/1,2 mk2

There is more to a lens that just a score.  ;)

Their 85IIL must have been seriously out of spec and shows just how laughable DXO testing really is. My copy (which I use wide open all the time) is sharper than my 135IIL and 70-200 f2.8 L IS II. It's a stunning optic. I've tried the Sigma, it's was nice but not in the Canon league. It's Focussing was erratic and the images just don't look as nice....plus it's not quite as bright and certainly not as well built. The Canon 85IIL is an engineering masterpiece. My copy is now 5 years old and still looks new and it's had a hard life....good luck with your Sigma in that regard. I've had a lot of Sigma glass over the years and I've completely lost faith in the brand.

I have a hard time with lens testing in general. The only lens tests I've ever found reliable are those from LensRentals.com, and the reason I find them reliable is the way they are tested: In batches, sometimes a dozen or more strong. You can't really evaluate the performance of a lens until you've tested multiple copies with the same procedure. Only then an to arrive at a reasonable average, standard deviation, etc. Sites that test a single copy of a lens are just asking for trouble...

Skulker

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #191 on: April 12, 2013, 06:10:52 PM »
well, the megapixels gives you freedom , the DR also.
IF Canon has the same camera as Nikon, what should your answer be then?
I do not like resolution, or a great DR

Interesting that you think the Megapixels gives you freedom. I take it to mean to crop more. That's not something I need. I get all the "reach" I need from my current lens selection. 

I see your comments about resolution or DR try to take this away from the Megapixel topic. That is EXACTLY what the post before mine was talking about. So I won't comment, but you can rest assure I don't agree with your attempt to imply that I am influenced by the make of the camera.

But thanks for the reply about Megapixels. I certainly was surprised that the increased IQ of the 1Dx and the 5D3 allowed me to crop so much that I do not miss the crop factor from the 7D



Ever heard of Gigapan?
Everyone using those will be grateful when higher resolution cameras are more common.

No never heard of it.   ;D   I did look it up, look like it makes all those big megapixels cameras a waste of time, you can get as many pixels as you like by using as many photo's as you like. Enjoy your pixel peeking  ;D But its not something I will ever use. Just not my type of thing.  I was at a lecture the other day from someone who actually produces large composite images, many costing about $40,000 just for the post processing. He uses a camera over 8 years old, and he had no wish to change to a newer model.
If you debate with a fool onlookers can find it VERY difficult to tell the difference.

9VIII

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #192 on: April 13, 2013, 01:25:09 AM »

Ever heard of Gigapan?
Everyone using those will be grateful when higher resolution cameras are more common.

No never heard of it.   ;D   I did look it up, look like it makes all those big megapixels cameras a waste of time, you can get as many pixels as you like by using as many photo's as you like. Enjoy your pixel peeking  ;D But its not something I will ever use. Just not my type of thing.  I was at a lecture the other day from someone who actually produces large composite images, many costing about $40,000 just for the post processing. He uses a camera over 8 years old, and he had no wish to change to a newer model.

With composite shots specifically it becomes a ratio of time vs. productivity. If you have a target image size the higher resolution camera will get you there faster (which can help in avoiding changing environments), or you can just keep doing the same thing and get better pictures.
Edit: Speaking of which, I loved using PhotoStitch with my first high end compact six years ago, now that I have an SLR (first camera broke) I should get back into it.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 01:31:52 AM by 9VIII »

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #192 on: April 13, 2013, 01:25:09 AM »

GMCPhotographics

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #193 on: April 14, 2013, 06:14:32 PM »
Agreed, but to say the 85L II is sharper than the 135L is stretch. Even though we're comparing razors to razors.

I can only state what my particular lenses show. My 85IIL is a bit sharper than my 135L. Both are sharp, no argument! My 135L is about as sharp as my 70-200 f2.8 L IS II.
But my sharpest lens is easily my 400 f2.8 L IS and then my 100 LIS Macro. Both of these lenses are bonkers sharp. My old 100mm USM macro was sharp but not as sharp as my L version, other people used to rave about theirs, mine was a little so-so.

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #193 on: April 14, 2013, 06:14:32 PM »