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Author Topic: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]  (Read 33075 times)

Zv

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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2013, 09:58:57 PM »
I think we can all safely agree that the next generation of DSLR from Canon really needs to be NEXT GENERATION for most of us to even want to upgrade!

Personally I think neither 70D or 7D II will have ground breaking tech other than just "the latest version".

It's what's in the pipeline after these two releases I'm interested in ....
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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2013, 09:58:57 PM »

mkabi

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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2013, 10:12:40 PM »
Rumor or not.

Reality is... the t4i caught up with everything the 60D and 7D had to offer.

So there is a definite need for a serious upgrade, and weather sealing won't just cut it anymore.
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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2013, 10:29:09 PM »


I hope for the best about 7D2: new dual DIGIC 6 and new CMOS (NEW Technolgy, NOT the same CMOS as on 1DX, 5D3 edition customized for 7D2).


10x!

No need to be "furious with Canon".  And where did you read a rumor that the 7D2 would get "dual digic 6"?  I must have missed that.  Seems very unlikely to me, unless the price is more in the $3k+ range.  Which would be absurd...a 1.6x crop sensor is a silly compromise in the first place (at least now in 2013).  To attempt to sell one at such a high price, would be a disaster.  1.6x crop, is so very 2002...it's time to move on to something else, something bigger.  I mean, if "reach" is all they care about, they might as well go smaller and make a micro 4/3 size, 3:2 sensor for the 7D2.  But they won't.

Why would "dual digic 6" = $3k+ range? Doesn't the new SX280 with digic 6 come in at $320?

jebrady03

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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2013, 03:10:52 AM »
And why didn't they bring the 70D already, since it is overdue after 2 1/2 years, when Canon has all the stuff they need (including sensor) ready. It looks to me (and I hope so), that they are delaying the 70D so they can introduce it with the new sensor.

Who said it was overdue and/or that they're delaying the 70D?  Internet expectations?  Or Canon?  Perhaps Canon believes they're ahead of schedule.  Because other than some not-so-vague comments from Canon employees who were put on the spot, I don't recall reading/hearing anything about the 70D or the 7D2 especially in regards to an impending announcement or due date.

So again, are these YOUR expectations from reading a RUMORS site, or are these missed deadlines that Canon has self-imposed?  Obviously a rhetorical question...

If you would have takeen yourself more time to read, then you would have probably realized, that I wrote "It looks to me", so it was not even a rethorical question you wrote, it was just not a very intelligent question, because it just showed, that you did not read what I wrote.

When choosing to question someone's intelligence, you should really proofread your own post for misspellings, proper grammar, and proper punctuation to insure you look as intelligent as possible.

Additionally, don't try to hide behind "it looks to me" - you know my comment applied perfectly to you (and many, MANY others on this forum so I'm not just singling you out - I just happened to quote your post) with or without the inclusion of that minimally applicable qualifier.

Finally, you should avoid insults and stick to facts.  However I see from your acceptance of rumors as quasi-facts that this may be difficult for you.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 03:16:29 AM by jebrady03 »

mb66energy

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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2013, 04:40:55 AM »


I hope for the best about 7D2: new dual DIGIC 6 and new CMOS (NEW Technolgy, NOT the same CMOS as on 1DX, 5D3 edition customized for 7D2).


10x!

No need to be "furious with Canon".  And where did you read a rumor that the 7D2 would get "dual digic 6"?  I must have missed that.  Seems very unlikely to me, unless the price is more in the $3k+ range.  Which would be absurd...a 1.6x crop sensor is a silly compromise in the first place (at least now in 2013).  To attempt to sell one at such a high price, would be a disaster.  1.6x crop, is so very 2002...it's time to move on to something else, something bigger.  I mean, if "reach" is all they care about, they might as well go smaller and make a micro 4/3 size, 3:2 sensor for the 7D2.  But they won't.

Why would "dual digic 6" = $3k+ range? Doesn't the new SX280 with digic 6 come in at $320?

I see several reasons:
  * Programming a firmware which uses two or more CPUs needs a lot of development to parallelize "jobs" on different CPUs
  * PC board layout and thermal management has to be codeveloped/improved
  * If there is a need for a 2nd CPU the hardware is more powerful (120point AF system, 40 MPix sensor) and this will increase the system cost.

A specialized camera will see a lower count of bodies produced so the development cost will be higher on a per-body-perspective.

My 2ct.
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jrista

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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2013, 10:01:51 AM »


I hope for the best about 7D2: new dual DIGIC 6 and new CMOS (NEW Technolgy, NOT the same CMOS as on 1DX, 5D3 edition customized for 7D2).


10x!

No need to be "furious with Canon".  And where did you read a rumor that the 7D2 would get "dual digic 6"?  I must have missed that.  Seems very unlikely to me, unless the price is more in the $3k+ range.  Which would be absurd...a 1.6x crop sensor is a silly compromise in the first place (at least now in 2013).  To attempt to sell one at such a high price, would be a disaster.  1.6x crop, is so very 2002...it's time to move on to something else, something bigger.  I mean, if "reach" is all they care about, they might as well go smaller and make a micro 4/3 size, 3:2 sensor for the 7D2.  But they won't.

Why would "dual digic 6" = $3k+ range? Doesn't the new SX280 with digic 6 come in at $320?

I see several reasons:
  * Programming a firmware which uses two or more CPUs needs a lot of development to parallelize "jobs" on different CPUs
  * PC board layout and thermal management has to be codeveloped/improved
  * If there is a need for a 2nd CPU the hardware is more powerful (120point AF system, 40 MPix sensor) and this will increase the system cost.

A specialized camera will see a lower count of bodies produced so the development cost will be higher on a per-body-perspective.

My 2ct.

You do realize the current 7D Mark I already uses dual DIGIC 4 chips, right? It never cost $2000, let alone $3000. Making use of dual processors in a 7D II would be a no brainer, and would NOT require the creation of DIGIC 6. The 1D X already uses dual DIGIC 5+ chips, and repurposing that design in a cheaper body would be a hell of a lot cheaper for Canon than designing something completely new from scratch. It also proves that the firmware ALREADY supports parallel processing, so there really isn't any extra work there, either.
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aj1575

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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2013, 10:12:40 AM »
And why didn't they bring the 70D already, since it is overdue after 2 1/2 years, when Canon has all the stuff they need (including sensor) ready. It looks to me (and I hope so), that they are delaying the 70D so they can introduce it with the new sensor.

Who said it was overdue and/or that they're delaying the 70D?  Internet expectations?  Or Canon?  Perhaps Canon believes they're ahead of schedule.  Because other than some not-so-vague comments from Canon employees who were put on the spot, I don't recall reading/hearing anything about the 70D or the 7D2 especially in regards to an impending announcement or due date.

So again, are these YOUR expectations from reading a RUMORS site, or are these missed deadlines that Canon has self-imposed?  Obviously a rhetorical question...

If you would have takeen yourself more time to read, then you would have probably realized, that I wrote "It looks to me", so it was not even a rethorical question you wrote, it was just not a very intelligent question, because it just showed, that you did not read what I wrote.

When choosing to question someone's intelligence, you should really proofread your own post for misspellings, proper grammar, and proper punctuation to insure you look as intelligent as possible.

Additionally, don't try to hide behind "it looks to me" - you know my comment applied perfectly to you (and many, MANY others on this forum so I'm not just singling you out - I just happened to quote your post) with or without the inclusion of that minimally applicable qualifier.

Finally, you should avoid insults and stick to facts.  However I see from your acceptance of rumors as quasi-facts that this may be difficult for you.

Sorry that english is only a second language to me.

But anyway, I still think you should read the post you are replying to correctly.

And by the way, I did not question your intelligence as such; I just said that this particular question/post was not very intelligent.

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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2013, 10:12:40 AM »

mb66energy

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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2013, 02:39:50 PM »

[...]

I see several reasons:
  * Programming a firmware which uses two or more CPUs needs a lot of development to parallelize "jobs" on different CPUs
  * PC board layout and thermal management has to be codeveloped/improved
  * If there is a need for a 2nd CPU the hardware is more powerful (120point AF system, 40 MPix sensor) and this will increase the system cost.

A specialized camera will see a lower count of bodies produced so the development cost will be higher on a per-body-perspective.

My 2ct.

You do realize the current 7D Mark I already uses dual DIGIC 4 chips, right? It never cost $2000, let alone $3000. Making use of dual processors in a 7D II would be a no brainer, and would NOT require the creation of DIGIC 6. The 1D X already uses dual DIGIC 5+ chips, and repurposing that design in a cheaper body would be a hell of a lot cheaper for Canon than designing something completely new from scratch. It also proves that the firmware ALREADY supports parallel processing, so there really isn't any extra work there, either.

You are essentially right. There exist four (?) models which use 2 CPUs and the EOS 1D X which uses 3 DIGICs -  some basic development will be there. But never underestimate adaption of existing code for new CPUs with new (totally new?) additional components. And it depends on how you use the CPUs: Sharing load for different tasks is easy, but parallelizing one task is hard to do (except it is sth. like calculating noise reduction for different regions of the sensor).

My third point was perhaps the most important: If there is a need for a 2nd high power CPU the hardware will drive cost - extraordinary fps, a very advanced AF chip, etc. So the additional CPU will only add 100 or 200 EUR/USD but the things that made it necessary are really expensive (high speed mirror mechanism, shutter system, complex and specialized AF chip, ultra fast  FADCs, etc,).
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Rienzphotoz

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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2013, 03:06:26 PM »
Rumor or not.

Reality is... the t4i caught up with everything the 60D and 7D had to offer.

So there is a definite need for a serious upgrade, and weather sealing won't just cut it anymore.
t4i caught up with 7D? ... I am curious to know how ... also why "weather sealing won't cut it anymore"?
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Zv

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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2013, 09:28:33 PM »
Rumor or not.

Reality is... the t4i caught up with everything the 60D and 7D had to offer.

So there is a definite need for a serious upgrade, and weather sealing won't just cut it anymore.
t4i caught up with 7D? ... I am curious to know how ... also why "weather sealing won't cut it anymore"?

I doubt people who say these things have ever used a 7D. If they had they would realize that the 7D is a full on assualt tank whearas the t4i is a water pistol in comparison. Let me see them capture a bird in flight with a t4i.
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Rockets95

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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2013, 10:38:31 PM »
if the noise follows recent trends of becoming more filmy than blocky digital noise it will help greatly
as the noise from the newer sensors responds alot better to NR than the current 18MP range do

wickidwombat - I'm curious about the statement of noise becoming more filmy with new sensors. Can you point me to a place that I could find out more about this?
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wickidwombat

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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2013, 11:28:03 PM »
if the noise follows recent trends of becoming more filmy than blocky digital noise it will help greatly
as the noise from the newer sensors responds alot better to NR than the current 18MP range do

wickidwombat - I'm curious about the statement of noise becoming more filmy with new sensors. Can you point me to a place that I could find out more about this?

the 5Dmk3 and 1Dx for example both have increadably visually appealing noise compared to older tech sensors
while the quantity is still there the smother more organic nature of this noise means 2 things
1) the noise responds much better to noise reduction  and allows much higher effective isos without needing to go to plastacine levels of noise reduction (unfortunately the in camera processing is way too ham fisted with its NR)
or
2) leave a certain amount of noise in the image because it still works well

the older sensors the noise is more digital and rapidly falls apart at high iso that no amount of noise reduction can really help without ruining the image
i feel the same amount of noise reduction in lightroom achieves a similar image when a 5Dmk3 is at 16,000 iso vs 1600 iso of the current 18MP crop sensors and 3200 iso on the 18MP is really a maximum and that is assuming the exposure is absolutely spot on there is no room for error

so while perhaps the quantity of noise wont change too dramatically if the QUALITY (for want of a better term) of that noise becomes more like the noise out of the 5Dmk3 or the 1Dx then I can realistically see usable isos up to perhaps 8000 (all subect to an individuals tollerance to noise and ability to process it of course)
which would be pretty kick arse especially with this sigma 18-35 f1.8 lens coming out (personally i see the wider effective DoF while maintaing the 1.8 speed advantage as a positive for this system not a negative)
there is the potential for a really kick arse low light system.

So in summary my main concern is more about how that noise looks more than the quantity of it
i mean an unedited raw from a 5Dmk3 looks noisy as hell however once its processed well the images are very clean vs the 5Dmk2 which really the limit is somewhere between 3200 and 6400 depending on taste and at 6400 iso the mk2 is really quite digitally and blocky compared to the mk3
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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2013, 12:01:36 AM »
if the noise follows recent trends of becoming more filmy than blocky digital noise it will help greatly
as the noise from the newer sensors responds alot better to NR than the current 18MP range do

wickidwombat - I'm curious about the statement of noise becoming more filmy with new sensors. Can you point me to a place that I could find out more about this?

the 5Dmk3 and 1Dx for example both have increadably visually appealing noise compared to older tech sensors
while the quantity is still there the smother more organic nature of this noise means 2 things
1) the noise responds much better to noise reduction  and allows much higher effective isos without needing to go to plastacine levels of noise reduction (unfortunately the in camera processing is way too ham fisted with its NR)
or
2) leave a certain amount of noise in the image because it still works well

the older sensors the noise is more digital and rapidly falls apart at high iso that no amount of noise reduction can really help without ruining the image
i feel the same amount of noise reduction in lightroom achieves a similar image when a 5Dmk3 is at 16,000 iso vs 1600 iso of the current 18MP crop sensors and 3200 iso on the 18MP is really a maximum and that is assuming the exposure is absolutely spot on there is no room for error

so while perhaps the quantity of noise wont change too dramatically if the QUALITY (for want of a better term) of that noise becomes more like the noise out of the 5Dmk3 or the 1Dx then I can realistically see usable isos up to perhaps 8000 (all subect to an individuals tollerance to noise and ability to process it of course)
which would be pretty kick arse especially with this sigma 18-35 f1.8 lens coming out (personally i see the wider effective DoF while maintaing the 1.8 speed advantage as a positive for this system not a negative)
there is the potential for a really kick arse low light system.

So in summary my main concern is more about how that noise looks more than the quantity of it
i mean an unedited raw from a 5Dmk3 looks noisy as hell however once its processed well the images are very clean vs the 5Dmk2 which really the limit is somewhere between 3200 and 6400 depending on taste and at 6400 iso the mk2 is really quite digitally and blocky compared to the mk3

I totally agree with everything here. Noise quality is really what matters, not necessarily how much there is (although in my experience the amount of noise on both the 1D X and 5D III is considerably lower at much higher ISO settings than any of Canon's 18mp APS-C cameras.)

There is definitely a problem with the top two ISO settings on Canon's previous sensors, particularly the APS-C ones. Canon uses a secondary downstream amplifier to achieve the +/- 1/3rd stop settings, and it seems they use that for ISO 3200 and 6400 as well, which is not much better than simply digitally boosting ISO 1600 (with the exception that it seems to occur before the ADC...a digital boost will also amplify any ADC noise and quantization noise.)
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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2013, 12:01:36 AM »

ThomasN

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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2013, 01:26:51 AM »
The technology is here. And the fact is, that that is the only thing we now.
 
See the sensor in 5D m3 with high ISO performance and good IQ, the 6D with WiFi and GPS, the 7D with fair weather sealing and high fps and several Canon cameras with video technology and the AF tech ass well and so on.

From a Canon board and share holder point of view the most important thing is to get as much money out us as possible. Period!

This means that we will get the new tech in small steps so we will buy a lot of cameras.
ONLY the competition will give us a camera with all known tech in ONE camera.

So pleeeeease Nikon, Sony, Panasonic and all you other great camera manufactors make dam good cameras in a dam  hurry!
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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2013, 01:38:15 AM »
The technology is here. And the fact is, that that is the only thing we now.
 
See the sensor in 5D m3 with high ISO performance and good IQ, the 6D with WiFi and GPS, the 7D with fair weather sealing and high fps and several Canon cameras with video technology and the AF tech ass well and so on.

From a Canon board and share holder point of view the most important thing is to get as much money out us as possible. Period!

This means that we will get the new tech in small steps so we will buy a lot of cameras.
ONLY the competition will give us a camera with all known tech in ONE camera.

So pleeeeease Nikon, Sony, Panasonic and all you other great camera manufactors make dam good cameras in a dam  hurry!

Yay. Another troll. That's just...fantastic.
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Re: 21mp Sensor in the 7D Mark II? [CR1]
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2013, 01:38:15 AM »