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Author Topic: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?  (Read 17924 times)

Lawliet

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2011, 08:03:04 PM »
What would be the implications of canon entering a mirrorless market with whole new lenses? Pretty much like when EF was introduced.

The main payoff of that gambit was a completely flexible interface. With the some wiring and firmware an EOS could literally read from a digital thermometer or tap into the device bus of my car and send music from its memory card to the stereo or control the windows.

The Nikon EVIL seems to get on sensor PDAF for the rough adjustment, so either Canon should be either able to implement fast CDAF or just follow suit.

A new lens line similar to EF-s, with an adapter that offers full functionality for current lenses? Why not? Same deal, buy mostly EF and the lenses that offer distinct advantages for the new mount. No bad blood, no lost customers. Once EVIL matures into the high end lines you have everything ready for action, no mandatory big investments or uncertainties.

OTOH dropping the ball the way Sony and Olympus did wouldn't sit to well.

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2011, 08:03:04 PM »

Mark D5 TEAM II

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2011, 02:34:55 AM »
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I have a 50d and got a Nex 7 in my hands some time ago. Yes the nex 7 is small and light as a PS but only with the smallest lenses. With a 18-55 it is already much bigger and with a 18-200 there is no advantage in size compared to a DSLR. For me (this is subjectiv) there is no advantage over a DSLR. If i need a small camera for my jeans pocket i would by a S95 which is impressiv in terms of image quality and low light ability at least for static subjects.


I also don't get this gadget collector fad, must be a symptom of having too much disposable income. EVIL cameras are only compact with pancake primes, it's unergonomic and unwieldy once attached to more useful lenses. There's an easy shortcut for Canon if they really want to get into this niche market, just buy Oly or any of the other smaller camera makers. And oh, iFruitcakes & most Android camphones sUx0rs at image quality. Best camphone IQ I've seen is still from the Nokia N82, Samsung i8510 Innov8 and the Nokia N8 (which has a 1/1.7" sensor, bigger than most P&S cameras).
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macfly

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2011, 03:17:00 AM »
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I also don't get this gadget collector fad

It's simple really, when you love your craft you're excited to try out all the new tools that may change what you can do, and give you something better or different to the other tools you have. I assisted for 8 years before becoming a photograper myself over 25 years ago, and every photographer I know is fascinated by the tools of our trade. If you aren't that interested then you aren't that serious, which begs the question, why are here on a rumor site?

Lawliet

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2011, 03:41:24 AM »
Thats more a definition of gearhead wit a job in the relevant area.
I'm more interested in solutions to challenges related to the picture I want to take. ;)

moreorless

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2011, 04:09:21 AM »
I'd be more inclined to want perfect primes than a zoom, a high end Canon M9 competitor would be my first choice. Obviously I use the EOS system for work, but I've ordered a NEX-7 with a pancake lens as a replacement for the G12 which I hated so much I gave to a friends kid the other week. Felt kind of bad giving him such a terrible camera, but I figured he won't know the difference as it'll be his first proper camera.

With a M9 competator I wouldnt say the need for an "all prime" system is as great personally, the camera might be a bit more unbalanced with zooms but more serious photographers will be more used to that. With something like the NEX though your dealing with a more unbalanced system and comsumers less likely ro accept it, plus of course the difference between pocketable and not.

Thats I'd guess part of what is holding Canon and Nikon back, they want to let others test the waters and see whether amature comsumers are willing to unaccept either an unbalanced system or one based around primes.

Flake

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2011, 09:12:41 AM »
I do have a wry smile when I read about 'perfect' primes, and I wonder which lenses are considered to be 'perfect'?

I also wonder how it is that the guys & girls at <agnum manage to keep at the top of their game without these 'perfect' lenses.  Lets face it, photography is not about gear and gear does not make a top photographer. 

The NEX 7 choice says more about this particular poster and his understanding of photography than anything else.  The 24MP APSc sensor begins diffraction at just f/5.6 and because of the high MP count there are DoF issues.

The G12 is a great little camera, used by Photo Professionals the world over, the statement that it's a terrible camera adain shows you have more money than sense, and certainly not the first clue about photography.  When you're done with the NEX please let me know because I'm sure I could produce some decent images with it!    (there are some photographers who can produce stunning images with a pinhole!)

DuLt

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2011, 09:29:03 AM »
What would be the implications of canon entering a mirrorless market with whole new lenses? Pretty much like when EF was introduced.

The main payoff of that gambit was a completely flexible interface. With the some wiring and firmware an EOS could literally read from a digital thermometer or tap into the device bus of my car and send music from its memory card to the stereo or control the windows.

The Nikon EVIL seems to get on sensor PDAF for the rough adjustment, so either Canon should be either able to implement fast CDAF or just follow suit.

A new lens line similar to EF-s, with an adapter that offers full functionality for current lenses? Why not? Same deal, buy mostly EF and the lenses that offer distinct advantages for the new mount. No bad blood, no lost customers. Once EVIL matures into the high end lines you have everything ready for action, no mandatory big investments or uncertainties.

OTOH dropping the ball the way Sony and Olympus did wouldn't sit to well.

That would mean no compromise, even if the cameras had a slower AF, the adaptor itself could contain a mirror and a very good phase detection system.
It would be a win-win.
Canon would have a new system for the future, the old one would still work, and it would porbably accept FF and APS-c

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2011, 09:29:03 AM »

macfly

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2011, 10:34:19 AM »
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and certainly not the first clue about photography.

Flake, kindly take a moment to review my website, I just redesigned it for easier viewing. Please do share with me a link to yours, thanks.
www.macfly.com

macfly

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2011, 10:45:24 AM »
PS: Perfect primes for a small FF camera have been very well executed in the past, as with the Leica/Minolta CLE and more recenty the lovely Contax G series cameras, both systems I've owned and used for many published stories. Today for an all puprose FF EVIL I'd take 24 - 35 - 50 and maybe an 85.

The Contax T2 was a magic camera with a razor sharp 38mm, and for years was my take everywhere camera, and I also used it for many published stories, something I'd never do with the G12. I thought me the perfect prime is 35mm, something most at Magnum with agree with I think.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 10:52:44 AM by macfly »

WarStreet

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2011, 11:30:18 AM »
When Nikonrumors showed long time ago the possibly 2.6 crop factor mirrorless camera, I felt that it is not going be very successful.

Since it is physically impossible to cover a large sensor with a small lens and that the size of these two have to be related with each other, the following two options should cover the majority of people :

(a) compact cameras which can be carried easily, preferable fit in pockets, without the pain of carrying and changing lenses or flash. Due to the small sensor/lens, these will be a cheaper, smaller and a complete solution, but suffer image quality for which most users won't care much for their intended use. 

(b) quality achieved by bigger sensors/lenses even if this means carrying and changing big heavy expensive lenses, together with a ton of other stuff.

Something in between such as the 2.6 crop factor mirrorless, will be significantly lower in quality from a traditional dslr and won't be small enough to be considered as a compact camera together with the pain of changing and carrying lenses.  You just get the disadvantages of (a) and (b).

What I reasoned is that, who wants quality, just wants that without compromise and is ready to make sacrifices for it, and who wants a compact camera will just go for a small camera rather a bigger camera with better quality with the interchangeable lens pain.   

There will always be a minority which will have a particular use with such a camera, but will they be enough to turn it into a successful camera ?

Also, I don't see any advantages with cameras such as the NEX, I would prefer to have a better balanced body, if the lenses are still going to be big. On the other hand the nex will be great with the small primes, but again, such needs will be from a minority of users.   

 

 



« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 11:37:02 AM by WarStreet »

elflord

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2011, 12:18:05 PM »
. EVIL cameras are only compact with pancake primes, it's unergonomic and unwieldy once attached to more useful lenses.
Which more useful lenses do you have in mind ? Here's a table of lens weights for m43 lenses: http://www.neocamera.com/list_lenses.php?mount=m43

The smallest m43 body is the GF3 weighing in at about 250g including battery.

Besides the superzooms, long tele zooms and the UWA 7-14mm, all of these lenses are lighter than the smallest m43 body available. The crop of prime lenses are well under the weight of the camera: besides the pancakes (Pana 14mm,Oly 17mm,Pana 20mm)  you have the 45mm f1.8 at 100g, the 12mm f2 at 130g, and the macro and the 25mm f/1.4 around the 200g mark.  Panasonics new kit zoom, the 14-42mm X lens is under 100g. As a point of comparison , the 24-70mm lens is heavier than the 5D mark II.

While an EVIL camera is not really "compact" with the non pancake primes, it's still a much smaller package than an SLR, and it's hardly unusable and while usefulness does depend on the application, the wide angle to normal telephoto is the range used for general purpose lenses, and probably also the best fit for the obvious applications of this type of camera.


dafrank

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2011, 01:22:58 PM »
I agree with most of what you say. However, on a couple of points, I don't. The first is that Microsoft didn't "get" what Apple was doing with their tablet. Microsoft is almost exclusively a software company. Apple is certainly, first and foremost, a hardware company and has done badly only when it briefly ventured into the software-only business model. I am not sure about what Windows 8 is supposed to bring to tablets, and I'm sure that they have some catching up to do with Apple's iOS in that regard, but Windows 8 will primarily be a desktop-notebook OS in any case. What the tablet version of it will bring will probably be little different from what Apple has brought to the table. In any case, Apple has done a wonderful job of marketing the iPad, as so many millions of affluent people who love gadgets and have money to burn have been competing with each other to see which one can conform faster in buying the iPad to surf the net sitting on a couch three feet away from their home computers, and showing pictures of their grandchildren to each other at Starbucks, all the while explaining to each other that their latest acquisition is nearly indispensible. Brilliant marketing! But it is the original hardware form factor, not the software, that has powered their marketing department and has given them a crucial headstart on Microsoft-allied hardware makers. In fact, if I remember correctly, Microsoft had long ago researched, developed, and demonstrated gesture-based OS's, but had to look to others for hardware in which to carry it, and they, in turn, failed to imagine the tablet as it is now.

As to the "mirrorless" cameras, their desirability and Canon's seeming lack of a decision to make any, I am really not in a position to judge, as I know nothing of Canon's real R&D and plans. Of course, neither does anyone else who will tell us about it. If they do make such cameras, they might do well to take a slightly different road to achieve the same end, as they, of course, will be later to market with whatever they can conjure.

Personally, for professional work, I am pretty happy with my DSLR's, but would be open to anything which could be better at form, function and image quality. As for snapshots, wandering around looking for interesting images, vacations and playing at 1930's "street photography," the current 4/3 format cameras with pancake and small prime lenses certainly are worth a shot. I am also looking at the new Fuji X10 which looks like it may be an even better tool for the same functions, but we'll have to see how it really performs. Either would be better than dragging around my 1DsIII and lenses, but, when a job is on the line, the mirrorless cameras are not anywhere capable enough at this time. I just have to stay strong and hire energetic assistants.
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Haydn1971

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2011, 01:56:38 PM »
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and certainly not the first clue about photography.

Flake, kindly take a moment to review my website, I just redesigned it for easier viewing. Please do share with me a link to yours, thanks.
www.macfly.com

If only there was a Facebook style "like" button ;-)
Regards, Haydn

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2011, 01:56:38 PM »

boh

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2011, 05:22:39 PM »
I agree with most of what you say. However, on a couple of points, I don't. The first is that Microsoft didn't "get" what Apple was doing with their tablet. Microsoft is almost exclusively a software company. Apple is certainly, first and foremost, a hardware company and has done badly only when it briefly ventured into the software-only business model. I am not sure about what Windows 8 is supposed to bring to tablets,

Just to expand on my my earlier comment; Microsoft didn't understand that the tablet was a threat to the traditional PC/laptop market and was eating into their profits. Apple showed them differently. Problem was that Windows 7 was not made for tablets, i.e. "fat fingers". Windows 8 is. It will switch between the different input modes seamlessly and support and app driven device, such as a tablet, in a way that W7 never could. It was a new market segment and Microsoft fail to recognize that.  Cheers.

c.d.embrey

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2011, 01:28:15 AM »

There will always be a minority which will have a particular use with such a camera, but will they be enough to turn it into a successful camera ?

Also, I don't see any advantages with cameras such as the NEX, I would prefer to have a better balanced body, if the lenses are still going to be big. On the other hand the nex will be great with the small primes, but again, such needs will be from a minority of users.   

The NEX 5n Black is number nine (9) on Amazon's Top 100 DSLR sales list. The NEX 7 is number thirteen (13). and the NEX 5n Silver is number twenty (20). All three with 18-55 lens.  http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941 

Alter getting my NEX 5n, I have little interest in using my Canon DSLRs. I've ordered an E-mount to Nikon F mount adapter and will be doing my next table top product shots with a 5n and a Nikon 85mm PC-E tilt and shift lens. BTW I've been using a Canon 1DSII with a 90mm TS-E lens in the past for product work.

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Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2011, 01:28:15 AM »