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Author Topic: The last Canon crop sensor - ever  (Read 37284 times)

Skulker

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2013, 05:08:22 PM »
Being a nature / wildlife photographer, I would not want to see APS-C disappear if only for the crop factor advantage.  In fact, I would love to see a 1-series crop sensor body....

With increased pixel densities, cropping can be a setting in your FF camera, like with Nikon.

I cant see the point in the cropping being set in camera. Sure you save some on storage and transfer time, but I can't see that it would be very useful. How often is that going to be the crop you want. I crop almost all my shots a bit. But I bet its hardly ever just the center part of the image at exactly that crop size.

Man that would be INSANELY useful!! Canon needs to dump the sRAW/mRAW garbage and give high speed crop modes. All sRAW/mRAW is give you a pseudo-RAW file at much reduced quality, while a cropped mode gives you a real, full quality (in reach limited situations) RAW file at potential higher fps (of course it is true that the mechanical mirror box has to keep up and that is really the expensive part but we definitely have been transfer speed limited more than mirror box limited quite a few times so....) and a BIG savings in storage space.

You use the mode when you are reach limited, not to make minor artist cropping decisions, which as you say, doesn't even make any sense.

What if you are shooting distant birds/wildlife? Why not have a 80MP FF jump from say 3fps to 7fps and why not have each file go from 80MP storage to like 30MP storage? Why do you need to store all the extra border junk that you don't care about and have it slow the fps down? For quite a few people, APS-C is solely about fps and reach so with a FF with crop mode it becomes an APS-C when in crop mode once sensor densities start getting to be like 48MP and above for FF.

If you get a few more FPS, then yes I can see the point of that. But I have to say that I'm fine with my 1Dx's frame rate. In fact I'm finding I end up turning it down much of the time as it just produces so many flipping files if I don't.  ;D

and whats this 80MP camera you're on about? I certainly don't want that.
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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2013, 05:08:22 PM »

wsmith96

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2013, 05:49:13 PM »
Here we go again.

Ever since the APSC-sized sensors came out, people have been wondering if it's just a stop gap, something that's gonna go away in a short while.  Well guess what, it hasn't.

APSC is popular.  Manufacturers keep making more and keep selling more of them.  That's because people like the format.  APSC is the new 35 mm.

I'm not sure that its correct to say that APS-C is reason these cameras are popular.  It's the price point that is popular.  So long as the mainstream public will accept spending $x on a camera that produces acceptable exposures, then the camera manufacturers will do all they can to exploit that market - which is what they should be doing.  There is always a market for the best.  It is usually a smaller, more expensive market and it's what typically separates the Pro's from the Enthusiasts.  I don't think that APS-C is going away so long as the mainstream public accepts the price point.

Now, what I do think would be a problem is if we come to a point where APS-C quality can match that of full frame.  Not a good strategy for the camera companies.  You would level the playing field between the pro's and enthusiasts (not artistically of course), and you could not charge beyond what the mainstream public is willing to offer.  Why would a pro buy a more expensive camera if the quality was the same, and why would the mainstream public pay more than they already do.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 06:24:14 PM by wsmith96 »
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dgatwood

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2013, 06:07:57 PM »
I cant see the point in the cropping being set in camera. Sure you save some on storage and transfer time, but I can't see that it would be very useful. How often is that going to be the crop you want. I crop almost all my shots a bit. But I bet its hardly ever just the center part of the image at exactly that crop size.

I tend to agree that most of the time, folks who are serious about photography would not choose to crop to an APS-C size when shooting with a full-frame lens because you can always do it in post.  It's the same reason that most of us don't shoot JPEG.  That said, if you know you're about to shoot something very far away, you have no interest in the foreground, and you are using a shorter lens than would be ideal, there's no reason to waste disk space or speed copying the crap around the edges that you know you won't use anyway.  So I could see it being useful in those sorts of situations.

But even that reason is still thinking too narrowly.  Imagine a high-pixel-density FF camera with the same pixel density as a crop body.  Now imagine that instead of the mirror flipping up, it slides a quarter of an inch up at an angle first, then flips up.  With that tiny mechanical change, your full-frame body is suddenly able to use AF-S lenses.  When using an AF-S lens, the body would automatically crop.

Such a design would offer enormous benefits to photographers.  When I'm traveling, I could bring my 10-22, my 17-85, and my 70-300L, using the latter in APS-C mode for extra reach.  When I'm trying to do serious shooting, I could bring my 16-35 L II, my 24-105L, and my 70-300L with a 3x extender.  (Yes, these exist.  Yes they require manual focusing unless you're in live view mode.  Yes, they are freaking awesome.)

schill

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2013, 06:20:54 PM »
If you get a few more FPS, then yes I can see the point of that. But I have to say that I'm fine with my 1Dx's frame rate. In fact I'm finding I end up turning it down much of the time as it just produces so many flipping files if I don't.  ;D

And some of us would like to get a little closer to that framerate without having to pay for a 1Dx. :)

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2013, 07:08:03 PM »
Canon sells more APS-C parts than FF parts. Always has, probably always will.

A good example of the "my memory is universal memory" fallacy.

Canon has existed since 1933. Canon started selling APS-C sensored cameras in 2003. For 70 years, they never sold a single APS-C sensor. All those years they sold cameras equipped for "full frame" 35mm film. As far as I know they never sold film either, so they never sold any image sensors at all for 70 of their 80 years. They would seem to be quite new to this whole arena. Who knows what the future may hold.

I'm hoping maybe they get into the dark chocolate business.
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schill

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2013, 07:16:04 PM »
Canon sells more APS-C parts than FF parts. Always has, probably always will.

A good example of the "my memory is universal memory" fallacy.

Canon has existed since 1933. Canon started selling APS-C sensored cameras in 2003. For 70 years, they never sold a single APS-C sensor. All those years they sold cameras equipped for "full frame" 35mm film. As far as I know they never sold film either, so they never sold any image sensors at all for 70 of their 80 years. They would seem to be quite new to this whole arena. Who knows what the future may hold.

I'm hoping maybe they get into the dark chocolate business.

Did anyone ever call 35mm film "full frame" before digital came along (except maybe in the context of those cameras that could shoot 2 or 4 pictures within a single 35mm frame)?  I think you might be able to argue that anytime some refers to FF in this context they are talking digital.

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2013, 07:24:09 PM »
Canon sells more APS-C parts than FF parts. Always has, probably always will.

A good example of the "my memory is universal memory" fallacy.

Canon has existed since 1933. Canon started selling APS-C sensored cameras in 2003. For 70 years, they never sold a single APS-C sensor. All those years they sold cameras equipped for "full frame" 35mm film. As far as I know they never sold film either, so they never sold any image sensors at all for 70 of their 80 years. They would seem to be quite new to this whole arena. Who knows what the future may hold.

I'm hoping maybe they get into the dark chocolate business.

Canon sold the DSC 3 with a 1.7x crop from 1995 (although this was more like APS-H), and the D2000 with a 1.6x APS-C crop from 1998.
Granted the specific EF-S mount model lenses for cropped sensor cameras didn't emerge until the 300D of 2003, and that the early D models used third party (kodak) technology.


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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2013, 07:24:09 PM »

paul13walnut5

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2013, 07:27:31 PM »

Did anyone ever call 35mm film "full frame" before digital came along (except maybe in the context of those cameras that could shoot 2 or 4 pictures within a single 35mm frame)?  I think you might be able to argue that anytime some refers to FF in this context they are talking digital.

No, quite the opposite.  35mm was traditionally called the miniature or leica format.

All those folk with 6D's and 5D3's thinking that 'full frame' is just the best thing ever...  the medium format guys haven't even noticed you are in the room.

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2013, 07:52:48 PM »
Canon aren't selling any APS-C cameras these days....
Really? Check and you'll see they just sell more than anyone else on the planet.
Canon APS-C will be around for a good long time to come. I'd bet the farm on it.
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Skulker

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2013, 12:40:28 AM »
If you get a few more FPS, then yes I can see the point of that. But I have to say that I'm fine with my 1Dx's frame rate. In fact I'm finding I end up turning it down much of the time as it just produces so many flipping files if I don't.  ;D

And some of us would like to get a little closer to that framerate without having to pay for a 1Dx. :)

I can see that makes sense.

For frame rates much higher you can use electronic shutters, that saves money to but unfortunately at the expense of not being an slr anymore. And I like my optical viewfinder, although I'm sure I could live with an EV.
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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2013, 03:08:33 AM »
All those folk with 6D's and 5D3's thinking that 'full frame' is just the best thing ever...  the medium format guys haven't even noticed you are in the room.

Just what I think when these FF vs APS-C discussions come around...
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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2013, 03:31:31 AM »
and whats this 80MP camera you're on about? I certainly don't want that.

Well that is the latest rumor. Anyway you'd need 48MP FF just match the same reach as a 7D has.

Skulker

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2013, 04:41:24 AM »
and whats this 80MP camera you're on about? I certainly don't want that.

Well that is the latest rumor. Anyway you'd need 48MP FF just match the same reach as a 7D has.

A rumour isn't much to use to consign a format to history.

What you are really saying is that you get the same pixel density with 48MP on ff as with the 7D. As I understand you. You won't find the 7D gives extra reach over the 5D3 or 1Dx. The extra quality of those two ff's makes up for the lower pixel density. The7D2 may be better, but it's just a rumour.
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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2013, 04:41:24 AM »

AJ

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2013, 05:00:47 AM »
Here we go again.

Ever since the APSC-sized sensors came out, people have been wondering if it's just a stop gap, something that's gonna go away in a short while.  Well guess what, it hasn't.

APSC is popular.  Manufacturers keep making more and keep selling more of them.  That's because people like the format.  APSC is the new 35 mm.

I'm not sure that its correct to say that APS-C is reason these cameras are popular.  It's the price point that is popular.  So long as the mainstream public will accept spending $x on a camera that produces acceptable exposures, then the camera manufacturers will do all they can to exploit that market - which is what they should be doing.  There is always a market for the best.  It is usually a smaller, more expensive market and it's what typically separates the Pro's from the Enthusiasts.  I don't think that APS-C is going away so long as the mainstream public accepts the price point.

Now, what I do think would be a problem is if we come to a point where APS-C quality can match that of full frame.  Not a good strategy for the camera companies.  You would level the playing field between the pro's and enthusiasts (not artistically of course), and you could not charge beyond what the mainstream public is willing to offer.  Why would a pro buy a more expensive camera if the quality was the same, and why would the mainstream public pay more than they already do.

What a lot of people want - myself included - is a camera that produces great colors, and sharp enlargements to 12"x18".  Digital APSC cameras do just that. 

Little point-n-shoots produce flat colors and blow out highlights, and digital 35 mm is beyond the point of diminishing returns for most folks. 

rs

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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2013, 06:52:04 AM »
What a lot of people want - myself included - is a camera that produces great colors, and sharp enlargements to 12"x18".  Digital APSC cameras do just that. 

Little point-n-shoots produce flat colors and blow out highlights, and digital 35 mm is beyond the point of diminishing returns for most folks.
+1

APS-C cameras and lenses even dating back several years have been capable of producing some simply stunning images in the right hands. Anyone not happy with the level of perfection APS-C gives is likely to suffer from some sort of gear acquisition syndrome (which I guess I have).
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Re: The last Canon crop sensor - ever
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2013, 06:52:04 AM »