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Author Topic: Canon is going to add mid format  (Read 10546 times)

Hannes

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Re: Canon is going to add mid format
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2013, 03:09:01 PM »
I've always wondered how much of sensor R&D the MF companies pay upfront, I'm guessing not that much. Maybe if canon was to make their own cmos mf sensor but then why buy a company since they are bound to be producing all the bits needed already

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Re: Canon is going to add mid format
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2013, 03:09:01 PM »

AmbientLight

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Re: Canon is going to add mid format
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2013, 04:40:37 AM »
With overall sales volumes being rather small compared to the sales volumes of Canon or Nikon we must expect R&D expenses of MF companies to be minimalistic. Otherwise MF companies would never make a profit.

This realization may be somewhat frustrating for some to think of, but I do believe this to be a reality. Just think of the higher costs in production caused by a combination of low volumes and the requirement for high quality. Then you add higher cost of sales per item again as they are more expensive and volumes are much lower. This puts MF companies in a position, where to make any kind of profit R&D expenses must be kept small, at least in comparison to corporations like Canon or Nikon.

I fear we can safely assume that for each developer in a MF company you will find at least 10 or perhaps even 100 developers in one of the large companies, so the difference will be staggering. The much smaller MF companies must depend on individual outstanding developers, because individual quality is the only way to overcome advantages in quantity of larger companies. If a large company wants to purchase a MF company, it will likely be for getting these individual developers and certain technologies they will otherwise not get their hands on. Then again even this is riddled with risks as the purchasing company cannot be sure to keep these key developers, because these individuals may not want to work within a large company environment.

If you think about it for a while, this makes the entire purchase scenario rather a remote possibility.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 04:48:23 AM by AmbientLight »

pedro

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Re: Canon is going to add mid format
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2013, 04:48:55 AM »
some additional news over at NL
18th We're told (thanks) that nothing will appear in any Canon branded MF range until there are enough items to introduce it as a 'system'. This will include 'Canon designed' [sic.] lenses with a new larger version of the EF mount (tentatively called EF-L) and, as with the EOS-M EF->EF-M adapter, a way to allow them to be used seamlessly as very high quality lenses on the current EF mount.
The lens development is being influenced by the new range of 'Cinema' lenses (I note their prices!)
The aim is a 'show stealing' announcement at Photokina next year, but no details on when any cameras might be offered for sale.
I've seen other related comments (thanks) which emphasise that this is still at a relatively early stage and the business relevance has not been established.
My own thoughts are that with the recent decline in DSLR sales, this might be a tricky one to get a good return on the necessary investment?
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dickgrafixstop

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Re: Canon is going to add mid format
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2013, 07:49:54 AM »
What is medium format in the digital sense - the old 3x3, the 645, the 6x7 as represented by traditional "120"
brands or something new?  Look at the range of sensor sizes in point and shoot cameras, or for than matter
anything smaller than the standard 24x36 "full frame" definition.   Canon could make a square sensor that would
be covered by the standard 35mm lens image circle - approximately 32 units on a side and get about a 20%
increase in pixel geography and could most likely be manufactured on the existing production lines - and who
knows how much larger the image could get and still maintain quality standards by increasing the lens to film
plane distance.  At least Canon has the engineers to work that out if the marketing case would stand out. 
I'd rather see Canon expand market share along other lines - a full frame GXX, a digital S rangefinder camera
(maybe all manual and they could trot out their 50's lens line again with new cosmetics), how about a manual
digital camera that would use FD series lenses or other options?  It's hard to get too excited about medium format when the existing manufacturers are not doing so well financially and expanding (sort of) into the
"premium" interchangeable lens line like the latest Hasselblad relabeling of the Sony system. 

9VIII

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Re: Canon is going to add mid format
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2013, 02:01:35 PM »
My bet is that Canon is just looking to one up themselves by making the next best thing to a full frame camera.
IQ would be unparalleled, and you can't keep making low light improvements to sensor technology forever. Eventually the only way to release a better product will be medium format. As a long term business decision I think it's a natural choice.
10 years ago full frame digital cameras were prohibitively expensive, and now we have the 6D. I can see the same thing happening with medium format.
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1255

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Re: Canon is going to add mid format
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2013, 03:11:12 PM »
I want a massive mirror with a huge loud flop and I want to have the old school look down view finder.


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dgatwood

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Re: Canon is going to add mid format
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2013, 05:31:22 PM »
IMO, the one key piece they need is a built-in, switchable teleexpander in the body.  Then they can introduce the high-end lenses as it becomes practical.

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Re: Canon is going to add mid format
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2013, 05:31:22 PM »

gmrza

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Re: Canon is going to add mid format
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2013, 07:09:22 PM »
IF Canon were to get into a MF type situation, the company they should buy isn't Phase One or Hasselblad, it's Dalsa - the company behind the IQ1 and IQ2 sensors.  If Canon can control the IP on the sensor technology it would give them a lot of firepower to go against Sony sensors.

http://www.digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/phase-one-iq260-a-sensor-story

This makes more sense, as it appears that most of the MF manufacturers source their sensors either from Dalsa or the former Kodak sensor division now Trusense Imaging.  Trusense is owned by private equity investors - they would most likely be interested in turning a buck by selling out.  Canon on the other hand could use control of more IP in the area of sensors - Canon would probably be more interested in getting access to and control of more sensor IP, especially technology that can be leveraged in Canon's core imaging business.

We would probably need to view a MF acquisition by Canon through the lens of what the acquisition would bring to Canon's core business.
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Bennymiata

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Re: Canon is going to add mid format
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2013, 07:27:45 PM »
Many of you seem to forget that Fuji make the current Hasselblad lenses and I don't think that Canon want to buy out Fujitsu.
However, they could easily get Fujitsu to rebrand MF lenses as Canon?

I can't see any good financial reasons for Canon to go MF as many MF using pros are going FF anyway.

Kelt0901

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Re: Canon is going to add mid format
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2013, 07:34:05 PM »

 [/quote]The Phase one cameras, I believe, use the Mamiya 645 lens mount, and lenses are made by a third party. [/quote]

FYI…. PHASE 1 does use the Mamiya lens mount and all Mamiya lens’s are made by Mamiya.   Unless their culture has changed recently, Mamiya make every component in their lens, including the lens blanks, grinding, polishing and coating.   I have been a Mamiya user since 1966 and this has always been the case.   There is now a business relationship between Mamiya, Phase 1, Leaf and Schneider.   I would love to have a MF digital back made by Canon with their current technology.   
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 07:37:15 PM by Kelt0901 »
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TAF

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Re: Canon is going to add mid format
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2013, 11:37:47 PM »
some additional news over at NL
18th We're told (thanks) that nothing will appear in any Canon branded MF range until there are enough items to introduce it as a 'system'. This will include 'Canon designed' [sic.] lenses with a new larger version of the EF mount (tentatively called EF-L) and, as with the EOS-M EF->EF-M adapter, a way to allow them to be used seamlessly as very high quality lenses on the current EF mount.
The lens development is being influenced by the new range of 'Cinema' lenses (I note their prices!)
The aim is a 'show stealing' announcement at Photokina next year, but no details on when any cameras might be offered for sale.
I've seen other related comments (thanks) which emphasise that this is still at a relatively early stage and the business relevance has not been established.
My own thoughts are that with the recent decline in DSLR sales, this might be a tricky one to get a good return on the necessary investment?
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon_medium_format_2ff.html


"EF-L" seems like a terribly choice of name, given the likely confusion with "L" lenses, unless all MF lenses will be "L".

Perhaps "EF-66" would be a better choice, assuming they retain the 6x6 format for the notional MF camera.


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Re: Canon is going to add mid format
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2013, 11:37:47 PM »