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Author Topic: 70D and Dxomark....  (Read 67997 times)

Pi

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2013, 08:04:13 PM »
Not exactly.  I push and pull exposures as much as I ever need to with Canon cameras and never have a problem with shadows or anything else relating to sensor. 

If by that you mean - shadow noise is there but I do not find it to be a problem, I can believe you. But if you are trying to say that you do not know what just about everybody else is talking about - I am skeptical.

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2013, 08:04:13 PM »

dtaylor

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2013, 08:06:18 PM »
I was already on FF when 7d came out but through the years i had a chance to review files from assistants, friends & gfs from either 7d 60d or d7000 (have to find one with a pentax now  ;D ).
The IQ difference isn't that tiny really. First you can get really nice files out of those sony sensors below 400. You can get FF quality easily, whereas 7d really has noise all over the spectrum.

I own a 7D and have shot tens of thousands of frames with it and made several hundred 16x20" prints. And you're wrong.

I've also in the past taken the time to put up 100% crop tests from FF and APS-C, Canon and Nikon bodies to see if FF or Nikon fanboys could reliably tell me which was which. They always fail, but it also always ends up a waste of my time since they continue to spout their nonsense no matter how many times they fail.

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You can see a  quantitative difference with local adjustments of about 1-2 stops and what happens to color and noise.

Sure you can...when you turn off NR on one camera and not the other.

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Obviously you can see a massive difference if you want to salvage shoots where flash or strobes didnt fire; basically those sony sensors are isoless, you could push an underexposed iso100 all the way to 3200 and there isnt much difference from a native 3200, plus the tonality will be actually greater.

Sure you can. You can also leave the lens cap on and get perfect images, or so a Nikon fan told me.

"ISOless"...priceless...thanks for the laugh.

dtaylor

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2013, 08:14:23 PM »
If by that you mean - shadow noise is there but I do not find it to be a problem, I can believe you. But if you are trying to say that you do not know what just about everybody else is talking about - I am skeptical.

If by "everybody else" you mean "a couple people who frequent canonrumors and dpreview forums" then...yeah...I guess everybody else is talking about it.

DR, shadow noise, and color have never come up in a "Canon vs. Nikon" context in any conversation I've ever had with my friends who shoot both, or at local photo clubs, or with professionals I happen to meet who shoot one or the other. Weird...you would think more people would be part of the "shoot a wall in the dark and +5 EV the RAW file with no NR" art movement...

Pi

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2013, 08:19:12 PM »
If by "everybody else" you mean "a couple people who frequent canonrumors and dpreview forums" then...yeah...I guess everybody else is talking about it.

DR, shadow noise, and color have never come up in a "Canon vs. Nikon" context in any conversation I've ever had with my friends who shoot both, or at local photo clubs, or with professionals I happen to meet who shoot one or the other. Weird...you would think more people would be part of the "shoot a wall in the dark and +5 EV the RAW file with no NR" art movement...

Then, I guess, you do not know what  "a couple people who frequent canonrumors and dpreview forums" talk about. Do you?

dgatwood

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2013, 08:20:12 PM »
If by that you mean - shadow noise is there but I do not find it to be a problem, I can believe you. But if you are trying to say that you do not know what just about everybody else is talking about - I am skeptical.

If by "everybody else" you mean "a couple people who frequent canonrumors and dpreview forums" then...yeah...I guess everybody else is talking about it.

DR, shadow noise, and color have never come up in a "Canon vs. Nikon" context in any conversation I've ever had with my friends who shoot both, or at local photo clubs, or with professionals I happen to meet who shoot one or the other. Weird...you would think more people would be part of the "shoot a wall in the dark and +5 EV the RAW file with no NR" art movement...

That's because the professionals you talk to have probably never tried to shoot amateur drama productions with a crop body.  That's the one situation in which I consistently run into problems trying to get decent shots because of insufficient dynamic range.  Think curtain call with half the people in almost no light and half the people under massive floods.  :)

poias

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2013, 08:58:24 PM »
I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what that 3 stop of extra DR can mean (5D3 on top, D800 on the bottom):


LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2013, 09:12:51 PM »
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this and maybe I'm missing something here, but when I compare the D7100 to the 70D and 7D on the graphs there doesn't seem to be all that much difference.

I admit I'm not a dynamic range freak, and I'm more interested in ISO performance, but it doesn't seem like there is any real world difference between the Nikon and Canon sensors.

My conclusion: The 70D sensor offers an almost imperceptible improvement over the 7D and the D7100 might be an equally imperceptible improvement over both the Canon's but not enough to make buying a camera based on the sensor alone worthwhile. 

For all the talk about how antiquated Canon's sensor tech is, I'm not seeing it in these results. Even their summary (if I read it correctly) says the Canon and Nikon sensors are only about a fifth of a stop different in ISO performance. One-fifth of a stop?

Okay...I'm waiting for the flaming to start.

Not much for luminance SNR. It's right there with the best of the best D7100. Whatever differences there are you'd never spot.

Tons for DR though and now it's also at high ISO where it is behind for that not just low ISO. The D7100 utterly whomps it for dynamic range. Also considerably for color sensitivity (very oddly though, despite that, the metamerism index is only 2 #s apart this time for daylight and the Canon is actually one number ahead for indoor lighting in terms of color discrimination, I guess somehow it manages to have about the same color discrimination and yet still a lot more chroma noise, in the past when the canon had worse chroma noise it also had noticeably worse color discrimination. Looks to have the same chroma noise as the old 7D but better color discrimination indoors by four points (whatever exactly four points means, that's a tricky element).)

So the 70D seems to be more or state of the art for luminance SNR, reasonably solid for passes for solid these days for daylight color discrimination (although weaker than old stuff), quite strong for tungsten/artificial lighting color discrimination, wayyyyy behind state of the art for low ISO dynamic range, solidly behind the state of the art for high ISO dynamic range, solidly behind state of the art for chroma SNR.

Compared to the 7D alone it appears to improve tungsten lighting color discrimination a fair bit, improves luminance SNR somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3rds of a stop, slightly improves DR at very high ISO (although oddly 1/2 stop worse at ISO200, otherwise appears to be within margin of error for DR), has about the same chroma SNR. It probably has a lot less banding than the 7D though for both low ISO deep shadows and vertical gain banding in the lighter shades. But the random noise at low ISO shadows are still very circa 2007 quality.


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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2013, 09:12:51 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2013, 09:16:01 PM »
Cognitive dissonance is very high with Canon customers who just shelled out a couple of Gs on their imaging equipment. They will try to justify by saying that "I always expose properly, so who cares about pulling shadows", "I shoot JPG anyway", "I like how Canon feels in my hands", or "Canon sells way more cameras".

Cognitive dissonance is very high with Nikon customers who just shelled out (more than) a couple of Gs on their imaging equipment. They will try to justify by saying that, "I don't really focus on anything in the left side of the field," and, "The sharpness of my images isn't affected by the CA endemic to my lenses, that can be fixed in post," and, "I like lots of buttons," and, "A smaller, less successful, non market-leading company like Nikon treats me better (and no, I don't mind waiting almost a month for a service when needed)."

Back in the day I recall many a Nikon user readily admitting that their sensors were well behind Canon and some were getting antsy and upset although they did like that their bodies had more features. Today Canon users go insane if anyone suggests that anything about their cameras in any even hint of a practical way is not the best.

Nikon picked up their game for sensors.
Canon does not.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2013, 09:17:48 PM »
"ISOless"...priceless...thanks for the laugh.

What pray tell is laughable about "ISOless"???????
The only thing I can find laughable is that you find the suggestion laughable.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2013, 09:18:18 PM »
I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what that 3 stop of extra DR can mean (5D3 on top, D800 on the bottom):

I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what having a 5x macro lens as part of the system can mean (5DII + MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro on top, no competiton on the bottom):





I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what having a 12 fps-capable body and handholdable 600mm f/4 lens as part of the system can mean (1D X + EF 600mm f/4L IS II on top, no competiton on the bottom):

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neuroanatomist

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2013, 09:20:12 PM »
Nikon picked up their game for sensors.

I think you mean Sony picked up their game, and Nikon came along for the ride. 
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Pi

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2013, 09:28:31 PM »
Tons for DR though and now it's also at high ISO where it is behind for that not just low ISO. The D7100 utterly whomps it for dynamic range. Also considerably for color sensitivity (very oddly though, despite that, the metamerism index is only 2 #s apart this time for daylight and the Canon is actually one number ahead for indoor lighting in terms of color discrimination, I guess somehow it manages to have about the same color discrimination and yet still a lot more chroma noise, in the past when the canon had worse chroma noise it also had noticeably worse color discrimination. Looks to have the same chroma noise as the old 7D but better color discrimination indoors by four points (whatever exactly four points means, that's a tricky element).)

Yes, color sensitivity is directly affected by noise, both shot and read noise. http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/About/In-depth-measurements/Measurements/Color-sensitivity

Daniel Flather

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2013, 10:14:02 PM »
Dxo threads are the BEST read on this forum.
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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2013, 10:14:02 PM »

wsmith96

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2013, 10:32:55 PM »

I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what having a 5x macro lens as part of the system can mean (5DII + MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro on top, no competiton on the bottom):


Sweet picture of the water on the web.  What is that reflected in the water?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 10:34:33 PM by wsmith96 »
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neuroanatomist

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2013, 11:14:48 PM »

I know everybody has invested in lenses and accessories, so jumping ship is not practical, but here is what having a 5x macro lens as part of the system can mean (5DII + MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro on top, no competiton on the bottom):


Sweet picture of the water on the web.  What is that reflected in the water?

Thanks!  It's a ground cover plant with very tiny leaves and yellow flowers, but I have no idea what specific plant.
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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2013, 11:14:48 PM »