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Author Topic: 70D and Dxomark....  (Read 185671 times)

Jim O

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #330 on: September 01, 2013, 10:58:23 AM »
Quote from: Jim O
And neither did we mere mortals complain when we shot with Velvia in the 1990's. It was what it was.

The Fuji shooters do not complain about the DR of the Fuji cameras today either, which is what it is - much higher than Canon.

And this has what to do with my point which was that DR is not everything? That was my point. It had nothing to do with Fuji sensors. How did you tangent off from Fuji color reversal film from the 1990's and onto Fuji sensors of today? I know why I brought up Velvia; again, it was to make the point that making beautiful images can be done with the rather narrow DR of color reversal film.

BTW, and apropos of nothing, I love my Fuji X100S, but if I had to choose between it and one of my Canon dSLR's, I know which I'd choose. That doesn't mean I don't like the images from the Fuji. They're quite wonderful. I'm leaving shortly with no real destination in mind, and I'm taking the Fuji. It's so easy to carry, takes sharp images, and it's light on my shoulder.

If you're so upset by this issue, why not change systems? You've said that you didn't upgrade this last cycle because it wasn't enough of a change for you. You didn't say it was because you didn't have the money. Sell your Canon gear and switch. You'll get more DR, but maybe you'll find the glass more expensive and/or less to your liking. There are always trade offs.

Now here's some information that I found informative. I found a post or a review somewhere else on this forum about Reuters "Top 100 Photos of 2012". I went to the Reuters site at http://blogs.reuters.com/fullfocus/2012/11/30/best-photos-of-the-year-2012/#a=1, clicked on "View All Images" and did a "quick and dirty" search. If I'm correct, all had the camera make/model listed. Nikon was listed six times. Fuji just once. Sony also once. Canon? Canon was listed 92 times! Now you may not do photojournalism, but these are professionals putting their cameras through the rigors of heavy use, often in tough locations. It seems most of them, at least most who took the best shots, chose Canon and lived with the reduced DR and shadow banding, etc. Perhaps they found it the best "compromise" of sensor, features, glass, reliability, etc. Food for thought?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 11:00:33 AM by Jim O »
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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #330 on: September 01, 2013, 10:58:23 AM »

Pi

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #331 on: September 01, 2013, 11:06:52 AM »
It's not about the highlights?  Of course it is ... and the shadows too.

So you actually agree.

Quote
Again, he didn't blame Kodak for their limited DR film.  Instead, he had realistic expectations and made a great image using the tools at hand.

I m not sure why you keep repeating this. He did not have better tool at hand, but if he did - he would not have used them?  His realistic expectations were based on what was technically possible then. Mine are based on what is possible today. I do not have unrealistic expectations for 20 stop DR. I have the realistic expectations to get the DR range that every other brand can get with their 35mm or APS-C sensors.

Yes, I can apply NR to the bottom of the image, etc., I could have taken a second shot and blend the top, etc. Or, I could just had a modern sensor.

@ Jim O
Quote
And this has what to do with my point which was that DR is not everything?

It was meant to show you, among the rest, that your point the DR is not everything is off topic. It was discussed before, and everybody agreed that DR is not everything.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 11:10:40 AM by Pi »

Jim O

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #332 on: September 01, 2013, 11:28:31 AM »
@ Jim O
Quote
And this has what to do with my point which was that DR is not everything?

It was meant to show you, among the rest, that your point the DR is not everything is off topic. It was discussed before, and everybody agreed that DR is not everything.


You're the one who keeps harping on it. Hahaha.   Pot, kettle, black. Now put them in a sentence.

And then consider a response to my off topic observation about the 92 to 6 to 1 to 1.
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zlatko

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #333 on: September 01, 2013, 11:42:00 AM »
I have the realistic expectations to get the DR range that every other brand can get with their 35mm or APS-C sensors.

Then it seems you should be using "every other brand"  -- i.e. any brand but Canon if, as you claim, every other brand has solved this problem.   And yet you use Canon.  I don't get that.  With eBay, Craigslist, etc., it's easier than ever to change brands.

I mentioned Ansel Adams because he offers vivid examples of how photographers used to deal with the same problems.  Not by blaming manufacturers of film, but by taking responsibility for every part of the image.  He used a variety of films, not always the film with the greatest DR.  He used a variety of formats, not always the largest format with the greatest image detail.  He didn't always have the "best" tool on hand.  And for his most famous image, he didn't even have a light meter on hand.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 12:07:24 PM by zlatko »

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #334 on: September 01, 2013, 11:59:38 AM »
@ Jim O
Quote
And this has what to do with my point which was that DR is not everything?

It was meant to show you, among the rest, that your point the DR is not everything is off topic. It was discussed before, and everybody agreed that DR is not everything.


You're the one who keeps harping on it. Hahaha.   Pot, kettle, black. Now put them in a sentence.

And then consider a response to my off topic observation about the 92 to 6 to 1 to 1.

I like to do astrophotography and I have noticed a lack of shadow detail in pictures of black holes :) Perhaps that's where this entire thread should end up.....
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9VIII

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #335 on: September 01, 2013, 12:06:31 PM »
So I was looking at some resolution charts for lenses yesterday.

Man the Nikon 70-200 f2.8 VR 2 sucks, like, those corners are terrible. To think that Nikon shooters have been wasting their lives with glass like that for so many years, almost half a decade now, sheesh, and it's so obvious too. It's like they've all got their head in the sand or something. I mean, obviously whatever talent you have is being severely limited if you use that system.

Pi

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #336 on: September 01, 2013, 12:42:41 PM »

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #336 on: September 01, 2013, 12:42:41 PM »

horshack

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #337 on: September 01, 2013, 12:45:55 PM »
So I was looking at some resolution charts for lenses yesterday.

Man the Nikon 70-200 f2.8 VR 2 sucks, like, those corners are terrible. To think that Nikon shooters have been wasting their lives with glass like that for so many years, almost half a decade now, sheesh, and it's so obvious too. It's like they've all got their head in the sand or something. I mean, obviously whatever talent you have is being severely limited if you use that system.

hehe, I know your post is in jest but in actuality for nearly every focal length where the two systems go head-to-head in glass (for the same generation design) Canon completely wipes the floor with better designs/IQ. The only notable exception I can think of is the Nikon 14-24mm. I own both the Canon 70-200 II and Nikon 70-200 VR2 and the Canon is what I reach for most of the time, esp. when I want to do off-center composition at 200mm. It's a spectacular lens.

Famateur

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #338 on: September 01, 2013, 01:15:22 PM »
I like to do astrophotography and I have noticed a lack of shadow detail in pictures of black holes :) Perhaps that's where this entire thread should end up.....

LOL...I think you're onto something!

Famateur

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #339 on: September 01, 2013, 01:28:19 PM »




LOL...seriously? That's your conclusion to people who see the futility of this silly argument?

You still haven't responded (unless I lost it in the ever-growing volume of pages to this thread -- or was it the other thread?) to my comment and others' comments acknowledging the DR and noise superiority at certain ISO levels of Sony/Nikon sensors. Does your continual ignoring of the fact that for many (most?) photographers DR and noise at certain ISO levels isn't their highest priority mean your head is in the sand?

Sorry, but displaying an image of beating a dead horse in a thread that continues on, unresolved, for 24 pages is a comment about a topic. Implying that those who disagree with you have their heads in the sand is a personal attack. Is that really where you're going to take this? Then again, maybe I got it all wrong. Maybe you weren't accusing but rather admitting? In which case, I apologize.  ;)

Let it go already...

Sporgon

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #340 on: September 01, 2013, 01:37:12 PM »
No, Pi's been told that someone left a Nikon on the beach and he's looking for it.

Famateur

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #341 on: September 01, 2013, 01:39:43 PM »
Dear CR Moderators:

This thread should be sufficient evidence that discussions about dynamic range and other sensor performance topics will likely devolve into endless and pointless back-and-forth arguing. While I support the idea of people being free to engage in it, perhaps we could find a way of accommodating it with a little more discretion.

Here are some ideas:

1.) On topics like these, we simply lock the thread once the topic has been sufficiently beaten to death (or has been beaten to death in previous threads).

2.) We create a "Bickering" section of the forum in which discussions like this can be initiated and labored to the satisfaction of all participating (or to which threads that take on such characteristics can be moved). Threads from such discussions would be excluded from the website's home page list of recent topics.

I kinda like option 2 best. It makes it clear to those who don't (or do) want to read/engage-in bickering threads that that's what they're getting when they enter. Excluding it from the recent topics on the home page might help avoid "feeding the trolls", as it were, and prevent the unsuspecting from stumbling onto such drivel.

What do you think?

Other ideas?

neuroanatomist

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #342 on: September 01, 2013, 01:40:27 PM »


No, that would be not acknowledging that Sony/Nikon sensors have more DR than Canon, and that's not what's going on here.  The issue is that for some people, it's a problem and for others, it's not.  Your examples suggest it's a problem for you. Guess what? There's a solution - as they say, put up or shut up, and start using one of the cameras from 'every other brand of 35mm or APS-C sensors'. 

For the people who don't find the less DR to be a problem, or not enough of a problem to outweigh the advantages for them, nothing you, Mikael, Aglet, LTRLI, or others post here will change that.  For people who do find the less DR to be a problem, they don't need more convincing, and in many cases they've switched to or added Nikon bodies to their kit.

So really, you are just



I suggest you head on over to Nikonrumors Forum, where your DRoning will be met with agreement and camaraderie.  Since I suspect you'll quickly grow bored, given the discussion above I suggest you start posting lots of examples, in every thread you can, about how the most recent versions of two very popular fast zooms - the 24-70/2.8 and 70-200/2.8 VR, are better from Canon than from Nikon.  Have fun...
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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #342 on: September 01, 2013, 01:40:27 PM »

Famateur

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #343 on: September 01, 2013, 01:41:25 PM »
No, Pi's been told that someone left a Nikon on the beach and he's looking for it.

Laughed so hard my sides are still hurting! Thanks! ;D

Pi

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #344 on: September 01, 2013, 02:19:09 PM »




LOL...seriously? That's your conclusion to people who see the futility of this silly argument?
As serious as a dead horse.
Quote
You still haven't responded (unless I lost it in the ever-growing volume of pages to this thread -- or was it the other thread?) to my comment and others' comments acknowledging the DR and noise superiority at certain ISO levels of Sony/Nikon sensors. Does your continual ignoring of the fact that for many (most?) photographers DR and noise at certain ISO levels isn't their highest priority mean your head is in the sand?

Yours (and others) continuing ignoring the fact that I said that it is not a main concern, and it affects a small percentage of my images (but I still consider this to be a problem), that I am fine if somebody does not consider it to be a problem (my response to zlatko), is astonishing. This thread has never been about whether it is/should be a priority, stop changing the topic. It is about the people denying the problem in the first place; ridiculing those who think, rightly or wrongly, that it is a priority; keep repeating that this is for people who do not know what they are doing, closed cap shooters, black hole shooters (a good one, BTW), those whose flash did not fire, repeating the 4 stop nonsense, then involving Ansel Adams, teaching me how to pp, etc.

Quote
Let it go already...
Why didn't you?

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #344 on: September 01, 2013, 02:19:09 PM »