November 27, 2014, 05:11:04 AM

Author Topic: 70D and Dxomark....  (Read 70828 times)

hutjeflut

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #375 on: September 02, 2013, 06:47:11 AM »
Its funny how everyone keeps bashing this camera because the sensor is only a small improvement for stills.
However i think this gamera is the biggest overal jump in the history of the xxD series.

In general only the sensor improved slowly with each model and addes a few MP and a few small features.

But this time they not only slightly improved the sensor they also added other stuff thats quite welcome like
-wifi to upload to facebook flickr or clouds or even use the camera remotely over wifi with your tablet!
-a better 19 point all cross focus system from the 7D
-a touch screen
-faster live view focus
-in camera HDR which might be fun and easy
-better viewfinder coverage
-hybrid autofocus for video
-a stunning 7 fps rather then 5.3 which launched this camera into a budged sports camera
-decicated focus mode button that lets you choose focus mode while shooting and much more button layout optimisations life movie button.


so in reality this camera is a massive upgrade. and the few samples ive seen also show that the black levels and noise preformance is really visible when compared to the 7d which for its price now is the direct competitor.

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #375 on: September 02, 2013, 06:47:11 AM »

caruser

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #376 on: September 02, 2013, 07:56:29 AM »
The point of ETTR is to allow more light to hit the sensor.

No, the point of ETTR is to avoid blown highlights while not losing detail in shadows. It might mean less light hitting the sensor, if average metering was going to blow important highlights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposing_to_the_right

In digital photography, exposing to the right (ETTR) is the technique of increasing the exposure of an image in order to collect the maximum amount of light and thus get the optimum performance out of the digital image sensor.

+1.  It's all about getting as much light as you can without clipping the highlights while reducing the shadows.  It's equivalent to an overexposure of around 1/3 EV.
You can't generalise ETTR in that way, whether and by how much it overexposes or underexposes depends on what the autoexposure does (since that's the frame of reference in this case) and on the concrete scene (the maximum difference between the "average" and maximum brightness).

A dark scene with one slightly brighter spot will need a few stops of overexposure; a normally lit scene with one very very bright object will need some underexposure.

So I'd say that Wikipedia is wrong; ETTR is a "technique" to ensure the best exposure without clipping the highlights. In some cases it increases the exposure, in others it decreases it. If ETTR were a simple overexposure or underexposure we wouldn't need a new term for it.

whothafunk

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #377 on: September 02, 2013, 08:27:54 AM »
But this time they not only slightly improved the sensor they also added other stuff thats quite welcome like
-a better 19 point all cross focus system from the 7D
a BETTER AF? by removing 2 functions (spot and expansion)? bollocks. who stated that 70D has a better AF and than a 7D?
Canon 7D Mark II -- Canon 70D -- Canon 8-15L f4 Fisheye USM -- Canon 70-200L f2.8 IS USM II -- Canon 17-55 f2.8 IS USM

neuroanatomist

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #378 on: September 02, 2013, 09:09:39 AM »
But this time they not only slightly improved the sensor they also added other stuff thats quite welcome like
-a better 19 point all cross focus system from the 7D
a BETTER AF? by removing 2 functions (spot and expansion)? bollocks. who stated that 70D has a better AF and than a 7D?

I'm pretty sure the reference meant better than the 60D.
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Murilo_mms

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #379 on: September 02, 2013, 09:11:27 AM »
The discussion of sensor performance vs DxOMark is pointless. I was a Nikon user (D5000, D90, D700, D3s and D4) and now I own 5DIII and never been so satisfied. The colors I get now are far better than before and I have now much less work with raw files.

We only need the Nikon´s DR if we need to use +3 to +5 of exposure compensation on revelation of Raw files. And if someone are doing that is better  learn how to use his camera...

Before my brand change I was affraid most because the results of DxOMark, but I was confident on my friends that own Canon and they NEVER complain about that.

High Iso performance? From 100 to 6400 the 5DIII is very, very close to D4 with much more resolution. Only above 6400 the D4 start to show difference. With 25600 we have much difference for D4, but how many photos we get with this iso?

Now I am much happy  and I read DxOMark sensor tests just for fun. His lenses tests are far better.
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whothafunk

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #380 on: September 02, 2013, 09:17:58 AM »
But this time they not only slightly improved the sensor they also added other stuff thats quite welcome like
-a better 19 point all cross focus system from the 7D
a BETTER AF? by removing 2 functions (spot and expansion)? bollocks. who stated that 70D has a better AF and than a 7D?

I'm pretty sure the reference meant better than the 60D.
you're right. excuse me.

but still though, not one review, not a single review has yet to compare AF between 7D in 70D. they only mention it has the same number AF points and cross type.
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garyknrd

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #381 on: September 02, 2013, 09:24:44 AM »
Exposing to the right is a lot easier than it seems. I don't look at the scale the camera uses as over or under exposure. Specifically when you look at the tic mark scale. It is only a guide based on the metering system and how you have it set up to.

So I personally like the definition that wicki gives. You just want to shoot at the max before you clip the highlights that are important to you. For me it is the bird. I could care less about the rest of the picture. So easy for me. Just evaluate the the color of the bird the background brightness and set an exposure for the bird. Using the tic marks as a guide only.

Whether the metering device says you are under exposed or over exposed makes no difference at all. You are over exposed if you clip the highlights that are important to you. Or you can look at the highlight clipping on the back of the screen if that helps. But that takes valuable time.

I can tell you now it works wonders with the 7D and IV. Can't comment on the other cameras.
It does kinda "tic" me off, pun intended. That Nikon does not have to worry about it near as much as I do....
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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #381 on: September 02, 2013, 09:24:44 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #382 on: September 02, 2013, 09:32:07 AM »
Its funny how everyone keeps bashing this camera because the sensor is only a small improvement for stills.
However i think this gamera is the biggest overal jump in the history of the xxD series.

...

so in reality this camera is a massive upgrade. and the few samples ive seen also show that the black levels and noise preformance is really visible when compared to the 7d which for its price now is the direct competitor.

Sure, in the real world it's a much better camera than the 60D.  But CR DR Forums isn't the real world.  Here, a camera is no more than the sensor inside it, and each new Canon camera that doesn't have two more stops of DR is actually worse than its predecessor, simply because of the expectation that it should have improved because Canon 'needs to pay attention to DR', and that it's another generation 'less modern' and 'more antiquated'.  Note that novel technologies like Hybrid CMOS AF aren't considered improvements here on CR DR Forums, despite such technology, the similar DR means it's the 'same old crappy sensor'.

To be fair, this thread is about DxOMark's testing of the 70D, and they only test sensors.  Of course, while their Measurements are useful, their Scores are Biased (biased scores = BS) toward performance at the lowest selectable ISO, so they don't apply if you commonly shoot higher than ISO 100.  Then again, even though this particular thread is about sensor performance, the DRones will bring their DRivel to any thread about a new camera, because to them, the DR of the sensor is the camera.
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Sporgon

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #383 on: September 02, 2013, 09:49:05 AM »
I might even go and...(gasp)...take a photo or two, and...(gasp)...enjoy it! :D
I tried that, but the fact that I have only 11 stops of DR just sucked the joy right out of it.  ::)

Yeah, I've been feeling a little deflated, too, now that I've learned I can't really take photos of much more than pigeons on a concrete overpass on an overcast day. Maybe there's a local support group that can help...
And with the limited DR of my camera, I am unable to raise detail out of the shadows.....

Don,

It seems I own the blue eye'd sister to your white cat !!

I post this just to show Don the cat, but;

Shot this on jpeg, and is straight off the camera, in mid day sun. Even from jpeg I can bring the soil in the flower pot up four or five stops with no noise what so ever, but then of course despite this being of a white cat in the mid day sun the total EV range from highlight to deepest shadow is only around 6 stops, and that is accommodating for the intense reflection from the white fur.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 09:51:09 AM by Sporgon »

neuroanatomist

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #384 on: September 02, 2013, 10:16:59 AM »
...despite this being of a white cat in the mid day sun the total EV range from highlight to deepest shadow is only around 6 stops, and that is accommodating for the intense reflection from the white fur.

You need to understand read  noise, highlight and shadow, sensors and  QE then you would se the benefits of 14 stops vs 11 stops of DR for shooting a 6 stop scene. 
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 10:38:51 AM by neuroanatomist »
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Pi

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #385 on: September 02, 2013, 10:33:44 AM »
Shot this on jpeg, and is straight off the camera, in mid day sun. Even from jpeg I can bring the soil in the flower pot up four or five stops with no noise what so ever, but then of course despite this being of a white cat in the mid day sun the total EV range from highlight to deepest shadow is only around 6 stops, and that is accommodating for the intense reflection from the white fur.

The intense reflection is blown, actually.

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #386 on: September 02, 2013, 10:34:34 AM »
...despite this being of a white cat in the mid day sun the total EV range from highlight to deepest shadow is only around 6 stops, and that is accommodating for the intense reflection from the white fur.

You need to understand read  noise, highlight and shadow, sensors and  QE then you would se the benefits of 14 stops vs 11 stops of DR for shooting a 6 stop scene.

 ;D

You forgot to put that inBOLD type, underline it, and then go back in and edit.

I mean if you don't do that do you really think I'll take any notice  ;)


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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #387 on: September 02, 2013, 10:46:11 AM »
The point of ETTR is to allow more light to hit the sensor.

No, the point of ETTR is to avoid blown highlights while not losing detail in shadows. It might mean less light hitting the sensor, if average metering was going to blow important highlights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposing_to_the_right

In digital photography, exposing to the right (ETTR) is the technique of increasing the exposure of an image in order to collect the maximum amount of light and thus get the optimum performance out of the digital image sensor.

+1.  It's all about getting as much light as you can without clipping the highlights while reducing the shadows.  It's equivalent to an overexposure of around 1/3 EV.
You can't generalise ETTR in that way, whether and by how much it overexposes or underexposes depends on what the autoexposure does (since that's the frame of reference in this case) and on the concrete scene (the maximum difference between the "average" and maximum brightness).

A dark scene with one slightly brighter spot will need a few stops of overexposure; a normally lit scene with one very very bright object will need some underexposure.

So I'd say that Wikipedia is wrong; ETTR is a "technique" to ensure the best exposure without clipping the highlights. In some cases it increases the exposure, in others it decreases it. If ETTR were a simple overexposure or underexposure we wouldn't need a new term for it.

ETTR in most cases increases the exposure and not decrease it.  To classify, ETTR is a technique to overexpose a little bit the highlights of the more "important" areas of the frame in order to decrease the noise of the shadows that the more "important" areas of the frame.  Sometimes, the more unimportant areas of your photo doesn't matter as long as you get to expose properly your main subject either during shoot or during PP. 

I think your definition is also wrong if you want to go more through the details of ETTR per se.

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #387 on: September 02, 2013, 10:46:11 AM »

Marsu42

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #388 on: September 02, 2013, 10:49:04 AM »
We only need the Nikon´s DR if we need to use +3 to +5 of exposure compensation on revelation of Raw files. And if someone are doing that is better learn how to use his camera...

Welcome to CR :-) and one remark here: After countless Nikon d800 vs 5d3 threads here I'd say that general opinion is that there are valid applications for more dynamic range at low iso, namely at least situations in high contrast when you cannot use bracketing for various reasons... meaning I hoped we're beyond "learn to use a camera" flamewars here :-o

Btw the continued heated arguments over Nikon's sensors and the latest module of Magic Lantern (my main reason to use Canon) that raises the dr of Canon is proof enough for me that this isn't a non-issue, it's just that some people need it and others don't.

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #389 on: September 02, 2013, 10:54:37 AM »
Shot this on jpeg, and is straight off the camera, in mid day sun. Even from jpeg I can bring the soil in the flower pot up four or five stops with no noise what so ever, but then of course despite this being of a white cat in the mid day sun the total EV range from highlight to deepest shadow is only around 6 stops, and that is accommodating for the intense reflection from the white fur.

The intense reflection is blown, actually.

You haven't down loaded the compress file from CR and try to read the highlights have you ?

Another faux pas ?

On the original jpeg there is nothing at 255 - just. When you have full sun reflecting back at you from white fur it is dazzling white. I could, and in fact did on another frame, allow a little blow out. If deep shadow detail had been important that is the frame I would have used. (Indeed if that had been the case I would have shot raw, but this is just a family snap).

While you're at it see how much noise you can get out of the flower pot.

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Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« Reply #389 on: September 02, 2013, 10:54:37 AM »