October 26, 2014, 12:31:15 AM

Author Topic: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras  (Read 60718 times)

Pi

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #210 on: October 19, 2013, 02:24:34 PM »
If you do a bunch of macro, a smaller sensor is preferred.   Just for the dof.  I've been shooting with the Mark II for a while.  I just switched my macro work to the GF6 with the 60mm macro.  The extended dof is really welcome.

How can the sensor size determine how deep DOF you can get? You can always control it with the aperture. The most important difference would be what the effective FL of that lens is compared to whatever macro lens you use with the Canon. Even the higher pixel density is not as important since you are diffraction limited.

The larger the sensor the shallower the depth of field.  Yes, aperture controls dof, but we start off with dof because of sensor size.  You can get a shallow dof with a point-and-shoot, but only extended out all the way with the smallest aperture that it has.  On the other side, the dof on a medium format is always incredibly shallow.  This is just physics...

It is mostly wrong, sorry. Sensor size can determine how shallow DOF you can get with a lens made on this planet but sensor size does not limit you how deep DOF you can get. The latter is limited by diffraction.

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #210 on: October 19, 2013, 02:24:34 PM »

moreorless

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #211 on: October 19, 2013, 02:31:02 PM »
If Canon released a high resolution, high DR, full frame sensor in a small and light package (similar to the EOS SL1) at an affordable price (Not Leica or 1D price tag), I would be all over it!

But let's face it. They won't. :(

I've preordered the A7R, and I intend to use it with my EF lenses. But I'm also going to buy a couple of native lenses, in order to have the size advantage when I want it. Perhaps two from Zeiss and then the ultra cheap but ultra sharp Samyang 14mm for landscapes.

I will not buy another camera from Canon until they get back on the iron throne of innovation and image quality. That's all I have to say.

Two different issues there really, I can understand buying the Sony for maximum image quality from your existing lenses but I wouldn't rule out Canon(or Nikon) releasing a smaller FF DSLR within the next 18 months, its not like this Sony release was a secret.

privatebydesign

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #212 on: October 19, 2013, 02:39:22 PM »

The larger the sensor the shallower the depth of field.  Yes, aperture controls dof, but we start off with dof because of sensor size.  You can get a shallow dof with a point-and-shoot, but only extended out all the way with the smallest aperture that it has.  On the other side, the dof on a medium format is always incredibly shallow.  This is just physics...

NO NO NO NO NO. I have tried desperately hard to stay out of the thread but that is too much.

DOF is determined by two criteria, f stop and reproduction ratio.

Put the same lens on a crop camera and a ff camera and take a shot from one position, a typical set magnification size macro scenario (1:1, 1:2, etc). Make two prints the same size of your entire two shots and the crop camera print has LESS DOF! The ff shot has a lot more fov but that is not the talking point here. Sensor size is only relevant in dof figures to work out reproduction magnification, in and of itself sensor size is irrelevant.

Please read the secion marked Relationship of DOF to format size here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field
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AvTvM

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #213 on: October 19, 2013, 04:09:08 PM »
Don't care what it's called as long as i get more background blur and more main subject pop at a certain focal length and aperture, distance lens to attractive subject and distance subject to obnoxious, ugly background. Which means i'd rather drop dead than buying another aps-c camera or even worse a thumbnail sized micro thirds camera. Now, when there are finally 36 delivious millions of pixels available in a small package.

And if more dof is needed, i'm going to close down the aperture all the way to f/11 on a full- bore sensored- camera  rather than being limited to f/5.6 on a quarter-sized sensor for fear of  freakin' diffraction.

So much for dof in my shooting. :-)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 04:32:57 PM by AvTvM »

Rocguy

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #214 on: October 19, 2013, 04:29:11 PM »
Anybody want to buy my 6D body?  :o

This, especially the A7r, seriously interests me. Seriously.  8)

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #215 on: October 19, 2013, 09:34:42 PM »
Operator error maybe?

If it is, then only the mirrorless seemed to notice :P :)

A sensor that isn't covered by its mirror, all things being equal, obviously will gather dust much faster than a sensor only exposed for the short moments the mirror is switched up.

NormanBates

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #216 on: October 20, 2013, 06:18:35 AM »
If you're going to compare which camera will give you shallower DoF, you have to do it for a given FoV. It makes no sense to compare different pictures (say, a portrait and a medium shot).

If you had to take a portrait, and could use different cameras, what would DoF be like on each of them? Well, it depends on sensor size and f-stop. Period.
The following options will give you exactly the same picture, in terms of FoV, DoF, exposure
* 50mm lens set at f/5.6, 1/50s and ISO 1600 on a full frame camera
* 31mm lens set at f/3.5, 1/50s and ISO 600 on an APS-C camera
In all three cases, field of view, depth of field and exposure will be absolutely identical. And also compression, face distortion because of perspective, size of out-of-focus highlights... The images will be basically identical, except for whatever differences in sharpness and detail the different sensors and lenses introduce.

Proof here:
http://www.similaar.com/foto/doftest/doftest.html

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #216 on: October 20, 2013, 06:18:35 AM »

verysimplejason

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #217 on: October 20, 2013, 09:21:15 AM »
Anybody want to buy my 6D body?  :o

This, especially the A7r, seriously interests me. Seriously.  8)

After using their A77 and the 6D, I'd gladly buy your camera for the right price.  Only problem might be is I don't know where you are.  I'm here in Malaysia as an expat.  :)

Pi

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #218 on: October 20, 2013, 09:43:28 AM »
If you're going to compare which camera will give you shallower DoF, you have to do it for a given FoV. It makes no sense to compare different pictures (say, a portrait and a medium shot).

If you had to take a portrait, and could use different cameras, what would DoF be like on each of them? Well, it depends on sensor size and f-stop. Period.
The following options will give you exactly the same picture, in terms of FoV, DoF, exposure
* 50mm lens set at f/5.6, 1/50s and ISO 1600 on a full frame camera
* 31mm lens set at f/3.5, 1/50s and ISO 600 on an APS-C camera
In all three cases, field of view, depth of field and exposure will be absolutely identical. And also compression, face distortion because of perspective, size of out-of-focus highlights... The images will be basically identical, except for whatever differences in sharpness and detail the different sensors and lenses introduce.

Proof here:
http://www.similaar.com/foto/doftest/doftest.html

That would be an evidence, not a proof  :), but there is no FF shot on that page, and no 31/3.5 on crop?

drjlo

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #219 on: October 20, 2013, 06:01:02 PM »
Finally, a review of Sony A7r with sample photo's that look like the specs say they should, with both Zeiss FE 35 mm and 55 mm. 

http://briansmith.com/sony-a7r-field-test/

Pi

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #220 on: October 20, 2013, 07:28:54 PM »
Finally, a review of Sony A7r with sample photo's that look like the specs say they should, with both Zeiss FE 35 mm and 55 mm. 

http://briansmith.com/sony-a7r-field-test/

Thank you for posting this. Very interesting photos but those neon colors and harsh processing do not give a good impression of what this setup can do.

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #221 on: October 20, 2013, 07:38:14 PM »

The larger the sensor the shallower the depth of field.  Yes, aperture controls dof, but we start off with dof because of sensor size.  You can get a shallow dof with a point-and-shoot, but only extended out all the way with the smallest aperture that it has.  On the other side, the dof on a medium format is always incredibly shallow.  This is just physics...

NO NO NO NO NO. I have tried desperately hard to stay out of the thread but that is too much.

DOF is determined by two criteria, f stop and reproduction ratio.

Put the same lens on a crop camera and a ff camera and take a shot from one position, [...]
Yes, for the same shooting distance you are right, for the same framing however, FF needs longer lens or or shorter distance, resulting in a shallower DOF. I think that is what most people mean, even if they don't have the correct explanation

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #222 on: October 21, 2013, 12:37:50 AM »
Apparently Nikon is slated to announce a Full Frame mirror less in less than a month which is a very interesting/nice development ... I really wanted Canon/Nikon to come up with a full frame DSLR coz I'd feel a lot more comfortable in investing in Nikon gear than Sony ... but if Canon does not announce something similar I'll happily buy the Nikon FF mirrorless ... but if Canon announces one before the Nikon is available for purchase I'll wait for Canon ... and I don't really care if its a retro design or not as long as it is relatively small size with small prime lenses ... putting zoom lenses or bigger lenses on mirror less cameras defeats the purpose of "small form factor" ... I'm also hoping the Nikon version will have better battery performance then the Sony.
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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #222 on: October 21, 2013, 12:37:50 AM »

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #223 on: October 21, 2013, 02:34:24 AM »
the Nikon rumor is extremely exciting. Nikon's current sensors are pretty awesome, and having the 16mp D4 sensor in a small size would be a real gift from Nikon, especially if it is a reasonable price!
I know others disagree, but personally I love Nikon's lens lineup too. They have great colors, decent prices, some interesting exotics, nice vintage pieces, and perform pretty well. Having their lens lineup, sensor performance, AF, all with a smaller form factor would be awesome!!!
I hope Canon has something to counter these new cameras soon! the more competition the better!
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drjlo

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #224 on: October 21, 2013, 02:44:26 AM »
the Nikon rumor is extremely exciting. Nikon's current sensors are pretty awesome, and having the 16mp D4 sensor in a small size would be a real gift from Nikon, especially if it is a reasonable price!

Well, apparently the Nikon will not be mirrorless and will have a pentaprism, with standard F mount.  Weight will be 765g, so it's not going to be very small, either. 

http://nikonrumors.com/2013/10/20/update-the-new-full-frame-retro-nikon-camera-will-have-f-mount-and-pentaprism.aspx/#more-65640

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Announces the A7 & A7R Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras
« Reply #224 on: October 21, 2013, 02:44:26 AM »