December 18, 2014, 06:40:27 AM

Author Topic: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?  (Read 12627 times)

that1guyy

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2013, 03:51:10 PM »
hope the 5D4 gets 4 k video and native raw video mode , if it gets that , I will get it.

Canon already said they don't believe RAW video should be on lower end cameras (relative to their Cinema range) so no Canon endorsed RAW video for you, especially not 4K.

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2013, 03:51:10 PM »

RVB

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2013, 04:47:05 PM »
DR needs to improve and they need to get rid of banding and pattern noise,the D800 sensor is far better than any of Canon's sensor's,Canon really need to catch up with or surpass the D800 sensor.

unfocused

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2013, 05:38:43 PM »
Or people like me that care about DR and IQ just haven't bought a 5D3 because it doesn't add any value over the 5D2 ...

People like you...who are in the minority.   ::)

And you know this because...?

Because Nikon/Sony sensors have had better low ISO...the majority of consumers are making buying decisions where low ISO DR isn't the priority.

For a scientist...

In fact, you either have very poor metacognition...puts you squarely in the minority.

Here's the tough to accept fact Dilbert. Canon doesn't really care to have you as a customer.

Not being mean. Just explaining the way things work.

It's all about conversion costs. Would Canon like for you to buy a 5DIII. Well, in an ideal world yes. But they have to look at what it will take to do that. You take way too long to make a decision, you don't spend very much and after the sale you are likely to be a high maintenance customer.

So, it's basic business sense that it's better to concentrate on customers who want to make a purchase, are going to make that purchase in the near future, are likely to make additional after-sales purchases and are likely to be content with their purchase decisions.

You want to get the most for your money. So does Canon. They look at you (actually the profile of hundreds of customers like you) and compare what it will cost them to convert you to a buyer. They compare the cost to convert you to a buyer to the cost of other buyers, including existing customers, and focus on doing what it takes to attract interested customers rather than theoretical customers.
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dilbert

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2013, 08:39:08 PM »
Or people like me that care about DR and IQ just haven't bought a 5D3 because it doesn't add any value over the 5D2 ...

People like you...who are in the minority.   ::)

And you know this because...?

Because Nikon/Sony sensors have had better low ISO DR than Canon sensors for several years/camera generations now, and Canon continued to outsell Nikon during those years...and is still doing so today.  Clearly, the majority of consumers are making buying decisions where low ISO DR isn't the priority.

For a scientist, you either have very poor English comprehension skills or you just like to troll because you and I both know that your paragraph above has nothing to do with what I said to which you said I was in the minority.

In fact, you either have very poor metacognition or you just like to insult people (or perhaps both).

My statement has quite a bit to do with yours, considering your entire statement and not just the first clause.  I'd say a large majority of dSLR users care about IQ.  I'd also say that a majority of dSLR users care about DR (at least, a majority of those who know what DR is...but frankly, that's probably a minority of dSLR users). 

But...you state that since the 5DIII does not improve on the (low ISO) IQ or (low ISO) DR of the 5DII (which are already very good, just not the best available), it adds no value.  Since the 5DIII improves upon the 5DII in nearly every other way (AF, fps, build, card slots, etc.), that indicates that the only aspect of camera performance you care about is low ISO IQ/DR, and that puts you squarely in the minority.

No, it puts me in a group that is "probably a minority" (your definition) unless you have numbers to show otherwise? Furthermore, there is nothing to say that this group of people are all buying Nikon/Sony. They might have, but they may not. What I argue is that those that do care about IQ/DR haven't bought a 5D3 because it offers them no benefit over the 5D2. A better question to ask is what percentage of 5D2 owners haven't bought a 5D3 and if so, is it because of this. Maybe it is time for a new poll...

dilbert

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #64 on: November 30, 2013, 08:45:15 PM »
Here's the tough to accept fact Dilbert. Canon doesn't really care to have you as a customer.

That's quite ok.

Quote
It's all about conversion costs.

Well, Sigma are working towards making it easier with lenses that can be adapted.

Quote
Would Canon like for you to buy a 5DIII. Well, in an ideal world yes. But they have to look at what it will take to do that. You take way too long to make a decision, you don't spend very much and after the sale you are likely to be a high maintenance customer.

There's a lot of speculation and comment there with no basis for fact.

Quote
So, it's basic business sense that it's better to concentrate on customers who want to make a purchase, are going to make that purchase in the near future, are likely to make additional after-sales purchases and are likely to be content with their purchase decisions.

They're called "fan-bois" and will do whatever Canon says and buy whatever Canon makes.

Quote
You want to get the most for your money. So does Canon. They look at you (actually the profile of hundreds of customers like you) and compare what it will cost them to convert you to a buyer. They compare the cost to convert you to a buyer to the cost of other buyers, including existing customers, and focus on doing what it takes to attract interested customers rather than theoretical customers.

That's actually the most intelligent part of your whole post. It would be interesting to see the sales volume of the 5D3 vs the 5D2 over time and if X% of 5D3 sales are upgrades, how many haven't upgraded.

dtaylor

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #65 on: November 30, 2013, 09:01:45 PM »
1. DR - I could bump my shadows up +1-1.5 in LR and still retain detail. With my 5DMIII I generally try not to bump up shadows because it immediately causes banding/visual garbage which I have to later filter out.

I routinely bump crop files by this much without difficulty. To say nothing of what I can do with a 5D3 file.

Nikon fans typically "test" the two by turning all NR off on the Canon side (but not always on the Nikon side). You do realize that this is not how you actually process a RAW file with pushed shadows, right?

neuroanatomist

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #66 on: November 30, 2013, 10:15:03 PM »
No, it puts me in a group that is "probably a minority" (your definition) unless you have numbers to show otherwise? Furthermore, there is nothing to say that this group of people are all buying Nikon/Sony. They might have, but they may not. What I argue is that those that do care about IQ/DR haven't bought a 5D3 because it offers them no benefit over the 5D2.

Sure, espouse what ever fallacy you like.  I'm sure Canon has such numbers, and for years they've apparently chosen to do nothing to substantially improve low ISO DR. The sales numbers clearly show people buying Canon dSLRs more than any other brand, despite a lack of substantial improvement in low ISO DR.

You're still stating two sophisms: first, that low ISO DR defines IQ - maybe it does for you, but it doesn't for everyone (there's that minority thing, again).  Canon has more DR at high ISO, a fact you choose to ignore. Second, you are arguing that 'people who care about IQ/DR' care about that only, to the exclusion of all other aspects of camera performance.  A specious argument, at best.

I didn't think even you could be that dilbert-y, but I admit I was wrong about that.
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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #66 on: November 30, 2013, 10:15:03 PM »

unfocused

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #67 on: November 30, 2013, 11:38:50 PM »

It's all about conversion costs.

Well, Sigma are working towards making it easier with lenses that can be adapted.

You misunderstand. I'm not talking about converting from one camera system to another. I'm talking about converting a potential customer into a paying customer. All companies have to do a cost-benefit analysis to determine if a category of potential customers is worth the cost of converting them into paying customers.

The point is that it isn't cost-effective for Canon to try to convert you. You're just not worth it to them.

Would Canon like for you to buy a 5DIII. Well, in an ideal world yes. But they have to look at what it will take to do that. You take way too long to make a decision, you don't spend very much and after the sale you are likely to be a high maintenance customer.

There's a lot of speculation and comment there with no basis for fact.

Not really. You've been posting on this site for years. More than 2,000 posts. It's pretty easy to sketch your profile.

So, it's basic business sense that it's better to concentrate on customers who want to make a purchase, are going to make that purchase in the near future, are likely to make additional after-sales purchases and are likely to be content with their purchase decisions.

They're called "fan-bois" and will do whatever Canon says and buy whatever Canon makes.

Just more proof of my previous point. To you they are "fan-bois." Canon calls them "loyal customers." What Canon knows is that I will open my wallet for their products. So, what I want in new products is going to carry more weight than trolls who seldom if ever actually purchase Canon products.
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LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2013, 12:50:05 AM »
Any worthwhile improvement to the 5D would put it in the league of the 1DX and therefore would be a bad idea for Canon.

riiight so they can just keep selling the 5D3 forever while everyone else moves on just to protect the old 1DX. great way to go out of business. that would be too conservative and internal segment protecting even for them.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2013, 12:53:45 AM »
Funny that not too many people speak about Improved DR, 
Now you have it ... see the above post from M.S.T  ;D
It was top of my list.

mine too, funny how it was on the top of half the posts that guy posted

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2013, 12:55:46 AM »
Or people like me that care about DR and IQ just haven't bought a 5D3 because it doesn't add any value over the 5D2 ...

People like you...who are in the minority.   ::)

And you know this because...?

Because Nikon/Sony sensors have had better low ISO DR than Canon sensors for several years/camera generations now, and Canon continued to outsell Nikon during those years...and is still doing so today.  Clearly, the majority of consumers are making buying decisions where low ISO DR isn't the priority.

or maybe it's not so simple as that?


LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2013, 12:56:53 AM »
I don't really need better high ISO performance. Lifting shadows could work better for low ISO shots. The D800 works nicely with bright backgrounds, whereas with 5D3 you choose to get the background or the subjects in front of it.

... or use Magic Lantern's dual_iso module to lift the dr of iso 100 to 14ev+ which solves exactly the situation you described.

it also has various problematic issues along with loss of resolution so it's not the greatest solution

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2013, 12:59:31 AM »
hope the 5D4 gets 4 k video and native raw video mode , if it gets that , I will get it.

Canon already said they don't believe RAW video should be on lower end cameras (relative to their Cinema range) so no Canon endorsed RAW video for you, especially not 4K.

maybe they can still wake up though, if they read the forums, especially the video ones

but they are probably too conservative and would rather play it the old way than keep charging forward with their past and future potential golden goose

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2013, 12:59:31 AM »

wayno

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2013, 02:13:02 AM »
Or people like me that care about DR and IQ just haven't bought a 5D3 because it doesn't add any value over the 5D2 ...

People like you...who are in the minority.   ::)

And you know this because...?

Because Nikon/Sony sensors have had better low ISO DR than Canon sensors for several years/camera generations now, and Canon continued to outsell Nikon during those years...and is still doing so today.  Clearly, the majority of consumers are making buying decisions where low ISO DR isn't the priority.

For a scientist, you either have very poor English comprehension skills or you just like to troll because you and I both know that your paragraph above has nothing to do with what I said to which you said I was in the minority.

In fact, you either have very poor metacognition or you just like to insult people (or perhaps both).

My statement has quite a bit to do with yours, considering your entire statement and not just the first clause.  I'd say a large majority of dSLR users care about IQ.  I'd also say that a majority of dSLR users care about DR (at least, a majority of those who know what DR is...but frankly, that's probably a minority of dSLR users). 

But...you state that since the 5DIII does not improve on the (low ISO) IQ or (low ISO) DR of the 5DII (which are already very good, just not the best available), it adds no value.  Since the 5DIII improves upon the 5DII in nearly every other way (AF, fps, build, card slots, etc.), that indicates that the only aspect of camera performance you care about is low ISO IQ/DR, and that puts you squarely in the minority.

No, it puts me in a group that is "probably a minority" (your definition) unless you have numbers to show otherwise? Furthermore, there is nothing to say that this group of people are all buying Nikon/Sony. They might have, but they may not. What I argue is that those that do care about IQ/DR haven't bought a 5D3 because it offers them no benefit over the 5D2. A better question to ask is what percentage of 5D2 owners haven't bought a 5D3 and if so, is it because of this. Maybe it is time for a new poll...

I resisted buying a 5d3 for ages based on the IQ/DR argument. And I maintain the 5d3 is no better: in fact, I think the 5d2 has fractionally more image 'oomph' but I could well be subjectively skewed. That said, the 5d3 is a lot better practically in terms of usability than the 5d2. And then there's the better AF which ultimate leads to better images anyway...

alexanderferdinand

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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2013, 02:26:37 AM »
My wishlist is not long:
a faster SD- interface or double CF.
and an increase of the buffer size. 6 or 7 with RAW + jpeg is a joke.
combined with the slow SD a real PITA.
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Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2013, 02:26:37 AM »