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Author Topic: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America  (Read 14153 times)

jrista

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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #75 on: December 04, 2013, 05:44:05 PM »
I'm not saying that Canon needs to dump the 18mp sensor because of external competition. I'm saying they need to dump it because they themselves already have better technology, and there is absolutely no reason not to utilize the 20mp DPAF sensor in the EOS-M2. I don't believe it would cannibalize 70D sales at all...different class of camera.

No reason that you know of...   For example, what if the more complicated circuit printing results in a higher QC failure rate?  That might raise the production cost of the sensor to the point where it is not cost-effective to put in a camera body that may end up selling for $300.

Also, maybe to you it's just "the same old 18 MP sensor."  But to Canon, it's a "new" sensor that to date has only been used in one prior camera body – the SL1/100D.  Undoubtedly, Canon incurred development costs for Hybrid CMOS AF II, and it is quite likely that the SL1 alone is not sufficient to recoup those costs to yield a return on that investment.

I'm not saying you're wrong to suggest that Canon should put their latest and greatest technology into their products, I'm just pointing out practical reasons why they may not have done so in this case.

Sure, there are certainly practical reasons...however that doesn't mean the opposite isn't true. There could be practical reasons for them to put the 70D DPAF sensor in the EOS-M line. As I said, EOS-M in the USA is a weird bird...its market positioning and technical specifications are at odds with the market. It certainly seems to me that there is plenty of interest in a mirrorless camera from Canon. EOS-M COULD be that camera...however it is simply positioned entirely wrong for the market here. I am saying...Canon has the technology, and more than enough capability, to reposition and market the EOS-M to US buyers, such that they would be completely satisfied with and even eager to buy the thing. I also don't believe that the 70D sensor is too complicated to manufacture...especially if its designed on their tried and true fabrication process (which given the known facts about Canon's manufacturing capacity, it would have to be.)

Anyway...EOS-M isn't a compelling product in the competitive US marketplace, but it could be, and it really wouldn't take all that much effort on Canon's part to make it so. The thing that confuses me is, instead of even trying...they drop it from our market? Strange. Very strange, and disappointing.

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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #75 on: December 04, 2013, 05:44:05 PM »

EchoLocation

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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2013, 10:08:58 PM »
I'm not saying that Canon needs to dump the 18mp sensor because of external competition. I'm saying they need to dump it because they themselves already have better technology, and there is absolutely no reason not to utilize the 20mp DPAF sensor in the EOS-M2. I don't believe it would cannibalize 70D sales at all...different class of camera.

No reason that you know of...   For example, what if the more complicated circuit printing results in a higher QC failure rate?  That might raise the production cost of the sensor to the point where it is not cost-effective to put in a camera body that may end up selling for $300.

Also, maybe to you it's just "the same old 18 MP sensor."  But to Canon, it's a "new" sensor that to date has only been used in one prior camera body – the SL1/100D.  Undoubtedly, Canon incurred development costs for Hybrid CMOS AF II, and it is quite likely that the SL1 alone is not sufficient to recoup those costs to yield a return on that investment.

I'm not saying you're wrong to suggest that Canon should put their latest and greatest technology into their products, I'm just pointing out practical reasons why they may not have done so in this case.
Neuro, come on.... are you really still standing up for Canon and their 18mp sensor?
I was in to DSLR's for about 5 years(not anymore, just got my a7!) and during that entire 4 year span of time Canon released many new APS-C cameras from the 7D to the T2i, to the 60D, etc, etc, etc...
To suggest that Canon use a different sensor is not to demand that they put their latest and greatest of everything in to every camera release. It's simply to suggest that if we are expected to care about a new release, maybe they should do something a little different. Just slapping a new badge and Wifi in something, and calling it a new release is not enough to get me excited. yes, it has kept Canon as the leader in DSLR sales.
But in the eyes of many, Canon is as dull as can be at this point.
I'm done with buying DSLR's. Unless they make one the size of the a7, I will never buy one again. I think many people feel the same. In the 5 years I've been following camera releases, I cant think of any cameras Canon has released that have been really exciting at launch.
In fact, I declined to purchase a refurb 7D in 2011 because I thought it was old(bought a 5DC instead)... now we're at the doorstep of 2014 and we're still in the same place.
At this point, Canon is simply resting on their laurels. They are the market leader and they can sell tons of DSLR's to the masses.
I used to be a big Canon fan, but at this point, there is nothing to be a fan of. I'm tired of DSLR's. What more can they do besides the 5DIII? They are already wayyy too big for serious traveling.
Now Canon simply doesn't release their newer, different products in the US? Ok, so it's just an incremental upgrade, but if so, why didn't they release this camera in June, and a high end M2x now with a viewfinder, flash, and a more pro like feel with better controls.

And please, don't tell me if I want a pro like camera with all the knobs and controls I NEED a DSLR. this is simply not true. I am 6'2" 200lbs, and my a7 fits great in my hands and has a shutter speed, aperture, and ISO dials along with TONS of programmable buttons.
DSLR's are not the future of photography, only the future of professional photography. In the future, people like my mom, aunts, and cousins, all of whom own DSLR's now, will simply buy mirrorless. In fact, most of them are already jealous of the advantages(mostly size) my a7 has over their DSLR's. They are quickly learning that DSLR's are no longer the ticket to the best image quality and they are happy to switch to something smaller and more fun.
Canon should do something to create some excitement and show their willingness to expand beyond DSLR's. Releasing another 18mp sensor that wont be available in the US is doing nothing to do so.
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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #77 on: December 04, 2013, 11:16:36 PM »
Neuro, come on.... are you really still standing up for Canon and their 18mp sensor?

Whether I'm standing up for it or not is as irrelevant as whether you're bashing it or not, because as you stated:

...they can sell tons of DSLR's to the masses.
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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #78 on: December 05, 2013, 12:51:13 AM »
Neuro, come on.... are you really still standing up for Canon and their 18mp sensor?

Whether I'm standing up for it or not is as irrelevant as whether you're bashing it or not, because as you stated:

...they can sell tons of DSLR's to the masses.

But he, like myself, will no longer be recommending Canon cameras to "the masses" that ask us for advice on which digital camera to buy. Multiplier effect.

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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #79 on: December 05, 2013, 01:23:03 AM »
Neuro, come on.... are you really still standing up for Canon and their 18mp sensor?
Back when the original 12 megapixel 5D was introduced, a very experienced wedding photographer bought it and soon returned it.  He told me it had "too many megapixels".  He realized he had no need for 12mp and didn't want to deal with the big files.  Now we think the little EOS M2 should have more than 18mp.  People who buy the little M2 will be making really, really big prints. ;)

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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #80 on: December 05, 2013, 02:11:34 AM »
Neuro, come on.... are you really still standing up for Canon and their 18mp sensor?
Back when the original 12 megapixel 5D was introduced, a very experienced wedding photographer bought it and soon returned it.  He told me it had "too many megapixels".  He realized he had no need for 12mp and didn't want to deal with the big files.  Now we think the little EOS M2 should have more than 18mp.  People who buy the little M2 will be making really, really big prints. ;)

Or, downsampling to get less noisy photos with much sharper detail. Or to crop out a portion of the frame at higher detail. The value of having more pixels isn't purely to print large.

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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #81 on: December 05, 2013, 03:21:26 AM »
Neuro, come on.... are you really still standing up for Canon and their 18mp sensor?
Back when the original 12 megapixel 5D was introduced, a very experienced wedding photographer bought it and soon returned it.  He told me it had "too many megapixels".  He realized he had no need for 12mp and didn't want to deal with the big files.  Now we think the little EOS M2 should have more than 18mp.  People who buy the little M2 will be making really, really big prints. ;)

Or, downsampling to get less noisy photos with much sharper detail. Or to crop out a portion of the frame at higher detail. The value of having more pixels isn't purely to print large.

Yes, it has value.  But the manufacturer has to make a rational decision in prioritizing goals for the little M2.  For the typical buyer of the M2, 18mp will be plenty.  I know of two wedding photographers who always shoot their 5D3 at the 10mp medium RAW setting.  Fuji mirrorless X cameras are 16mp.  Olympus mirrorless cameras are 16mp.  Panasonic mirrorless cameras are 16mp.  While 18mp isn't enough for everyone, it's clearly enough for a lot of camera buyers, including the likely M2 customer.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 03:37:45 AM by zlatko »

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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #81 on: December 05, 2013, 03:21:26 AM »

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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #82 on: December 05, 2013, 03:37:44 AM »
He realized he had no need for 12mp and didn't want to deal with the big files.

The whole IT side seems to evolve in unison, 12mp then regarding storage space and required processing power is about 20mp now for the same amount of money. In a couple of years it'll be 40mp with no downside, just like your good ol' youtube clip then was 10mb 240p and now it's 500mb 1080p with really no one noticing a drawback.

I know of two wedding photographers who always shoot their 5D3 at the 10mp medium RAW setting.

*Always*? Well, I admit that's a bit strange, I understand it for bulk reception shots but for the few select ones I'd expect anyone to go for the full resolution. Plus nowadays you can downsample raw with the Adobe DNG Converter to reduced resolution lossy dng which gives you a lot of flexibility with little storage space, admittedly at the time cost of converting cr2->dng.

EchoLocation

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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #83 on: December 05, 2013, 07:26:49 AM »
Neuro, come on.... are you really still standing up for Canon and their 18mp sensor?

Whether I'm standing up for it or not is as irrelevant as whether you're bashing it or not, because as you stated:

...they can sell tons of DSLR's to the masses.

But he, like myself, will no longer be recommending Canon cameras to "the masses" that ask us for advice on which digital camera to buy. Multiplier effect.
yes,
just because something is popular does not meant it is good. 5 years ago I certainly would've recommended buying a Canon camera... These days, not so much.
I'm here to talk about things I like, things i'm in interested in. I wish Canon had an a7 competitor to discuss with you guys here, but they simply don't.
 Just because something is popular does not mean it's good.
look at bieber.
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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #84 on: December 05, 2013, 07:37:34 AM »
Neuro, come on.... are you really still standing up for Canon and their 18mp sensor?
Back when the original 12 megapixel 5D was introduced, a very experienced wedding photographer bought it and soon returned it.  He told me it had "too many megapixels".  He realized he had no need for 12mp and didn't want to deal with the big files.  Now we think the little EOS M2 should have more than 18mp.  People who buy the little M2 will be making really, really big prints. ;)
BTW, my problem with the 18mp sensor has absolutely nothing to do with the number. I think it is pretty much the perfect amount of Megapixels for my needs... I just bought the a7(not the a7r.)
I just think at this point Canon needs to do something to get over this hump with their 18mp sensor... buy them from Sony, figure out some new technology, do something...
From the 7D in 2009 to yesterdays EOS-M2 release, there has been very little innovation in the Canon world recently.
EOS-M isn't a compelling product in the competitive US marketplace, but it could be, and it really wouldn't take all that much effort on Canon's part to make it so. The thing that confuses me is, instead of even trying...they drop it from our market? Strange. Very strange, and disappointing.
This is the part that is strange. Why don't they make a competetive product? Ok, the M was late to the party... but now they just quit? The M isn't a new release, couldn't they get an M2 to the US market before the holidays this year? My only guess is a more upgraded M will be released in the US sometime next year... I just cant get why it isn't available yet?
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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #85 on: December 05, 2013, 09:14:49 AM »
But he, like myself, will no longer be recommending Canon cameras to "the masses" that ask us for advice on which digital camera to buy. Multiplier effect.

All two of you, huh?  I bet that has Canon executives quaking in there dress shoes.  I'm sure they're just terrified that the two of you, and however many people you talk to (and that actually believe you), are going to outweigh all of those Canon cameras "the masses" see being used every day by wedding photographers, sports photographers, their friends, etc.  Inflated sense of self importance, anyone?

Back on topic, the the EOS M is currently selling quite cheaply in the USA. Meanwhile, Canon USA is running a major television ad campaign for the somewhat more expensive Rebel SL1, "The world's smallest dSLR."  That may be part of the reason for Canon USA's lack of interest in bringing out a new M at this time.
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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #86 on: December 05, 2013, 10:03:51 AM »
People no longer buy gear that just does enough..
We buy new cameras and of course expect to have new tech inside, regardless if we need it or not or if the old tech works as well..that's no longer the point.
It's all about innovation and keeping up with the times. when another company releases something new, it will most definitely be something "new" worth upgrading to. Canon seems to be the only one releasing new models using old tech and not changing much else.
We just feel short changed that's all..it's not because we need the new tech..it's because we're paying for something new, we'd want something new.

But the "we" you're referring to is a group of people who chat about this sort of thing in forums like this.  Canon's "new models using old tech", at least in their dslrs, are still outselling everyone else, even if "we" don't think they deserve to; and even then, "we" tend to be awfully fond of Canon's lenses, especially the newer ones; and those lenses work best on Canon bodies, so.... 

I've been using my 6D less since buying a 5DIII and OM-D, so I took the 6D on a short trip the other day with nothing but the 24-105L (the other half took the OM-D) and ended up, unexpectedly at a museum which was very dark inside and followed that with a brief visit to another after dark which happened to be very photogenic from the outside.  The camera performed flawlessly (I wasn't trying to photograph "herons catching fish") and although most of the resulting images were ISO 6400, the only time I applied any noise reduction afterwards was a couple of shots with a lot of dark sky, and they didn't really need it anyway.  I dare say new tech could conjure up something even better, but for my purposes at least I don't know of anything currently available from other companies that would perform any better.  That's just me, of course, but I suspect the that number of people out in the real world who find current gear to be inadequate is a rather small "we" that doesn't have all that much influence on the market.   (Although not in the same class, the OM-D did very well too, by the way; I - perhaps unnecessarily - set its max ISO to 1600, but with Olympus's good fast lenses and excellent IBIS it didn't need to go higher.)

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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #87 on: December 05, 2013, 11:01:42 AM »


Well considering that you are in an EOS M thread I think it is safe to assume that many of us posting here are in the market for a mirrorless system and are very dissapointed with the way things look to be turning out for the M.
I am not one of those with a limitless supply of funds for camera/gear. I have 2 little ones in daycare and a wife that doesn't accept financial tomfoolery, as I don't either. I absolutely love my M and credit purchasing this awesome little camera with getting me back into my first, and most intense hobby. I love this system for a number of reasons, first and foremost being the size and portability of it. I hike and ride extensively and this has just fit right in. But I chose the M for 2 reasons: I had been with Canon for about 10 years with a 20D and then a 40D, and because of the firesale price. I felt loyal to Canon because, even though I didn't use them very much, I really loved those to cameras. As for the price of the M, I concede that to complain and whine when I bought it at bargain basement price is a littly petty, but since getting the kit I’ve purchased the other two lenses, flash and filters. I have-what I consider to be-a sizeable investment in the Canon version of the mirror less system now. I was really looking forward to a version of the M that would have been more in line with the OMD EM1/5, EP-5 or GX7. Now it's looking very sketchy that we will EVER see that from Canon.

So yes, it pisses me off because now I feel like I've been marginalized by Canon because of my geographic location. Secondly, I am REALLY not interested in selling off all my stuff at probably half or, if I'm lucky, 2/3rds what I paid for it just to get me about 2/3rds the way there to an EP-5, or GX7.

And before I get flamed I'll also acknowledge that in the big scheme of things this is not a big deal. But in my little photography world that I live in on the weekends...this is supremely frustrating hahahahaha...
[/quote]

Your post makes perfect sense.  I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but I'll just point out a couple of things.  First I'm not sure how much you would end up losing if you sold your M gear.  I bought mine in the first fire sale - not as much as yours, though (body + flash + 22mm + 18-55) - didn't like it and sold it a couple of months later on ebay for more than I paid for it all (good timing, perhaps - the first fire sale had just ended).  Second, yesterday amazon's "gold box" camera was an Olympus M43 E-PM2 (same excellent sensor as the OM-D EM5, but no EVF); you could buy it + two kit lenses (the equivalent of 28-84mm & 90-300) for $349.... 

(I also feel inclined to note that while it is, of course, possible to buy from Japan, if enough of us do that it will only reinforce the impression that mirrorless cameras don't sell in the US, thereby continuing the problem!)

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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #87 on: December 05, 2013, 11:01:42 AM »

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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #88 on: December 05, 2013, 01:48:14 PM »


Well considering that you are in an EOS M thread I think it is safe to assume that many of us posting here are in the market for a mirrorless system and are very dissapointed with the way things look to be turning out for the M.
I am not one of those with a limitless supply of funds for camera/gear. I have 2 little ones in daycare and a wife that doesn't accept financial tomfoolery, as I don't either. I absolutely love my M and credit purchasing this awesome little camera with getting me back into my first, and most intense hobby. I love this system for a number of reasons, first and foremost being the size and portability of it. I hike and ride extensively and this has just fit right in. But I chose the M for 2 reasons: I had been with Canon for about 10 years with a 20D and then a 40D, and because of the firesale price. I felt loyal to Canon because, even though I didn't use them very much, I really loved those to cameras. As for the price of the M, I concede that to complain and whine when I bought it at bargain basement price is a littly petty, but since getting the kit I’ve purchased the other two lenses, flash and filters. I have-what I consider to be-a sizeable investment in the Canon version of the mirror less system now. I was really looking forward to a version of the M that would have been more in line with the OMD EM1/5, EP-5 or GX7. Now it's looking very sketchy that we will EVER see that from Canon.

So yes, it pisses me off because now I feel like I've been marginalized by Canon because of my geographic location. Secondly, I am REALLY not interested in selling off all my stuff at probably half or, if I'm lucky, 2/3rds what I paid for it just to get me about 2/3rds the way there to an EP-5, or GX7.

And before I get flamed I'll also acknowledge that in the big scheme of things this is not a big deal. But in my little photography world that I live in on the weekends...this is supremely frustrating hahahahaha...

Your post makes perfect sense.  I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but I'll just point out a couple of things.  First I'm not sure how much you would end up losing if you sold your M gear.  I bought mine in the first fire sale - not as much as yours, though (body + flash + 22mm + 18-55) - didn't like it and sold it a couple of months later on ebay for more than I paid for it all (good timing, perhaps - the first fire sale had just ended).  Second, yesterday amazon's "gold box" camera was an Olympus M43 E-PM2 (same excellent sensor as the OM-D EM5, but no EVF); you could buy it + two kit lenses (the equivalent of 28-84mm & 90-300) for $349.... 

(I also feel inclined to note that while it is, of course, possible to buy from Japan, if enough of us do that it will only reinforce the impression that mirrorless cameras don't sell in the US, thereby continuing the problem!)
[/quote]



The thing is, right before the fire sale in July I had pretty much decided on the EP-5 (Olympus). I was going to wait for a bit to see the price drop on it, then on the way home from work I saw the M at 299.99 with the 22mm and said to myself 'For that price I'm a fool if I dont pick this up...'

I was all excited because I thought that I had just bought myself into this system mega cheap and that Canon would come through in the next year with their version of the EP-5 or whatever and all I'd have to do is get the body...

Yeah, so Canon basically has me by the ***** at this point. I'm not gonna jump ship and run the risk of them actually releasing the high end M that we are hoping for.. Unless all of next year goes by and they don't show any movement in that direction.

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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #89 on: December 05, 2013, 02:38:23 PM »


Well considering that you are in an EOS M thread I think it is safe to assume that many of us posting here are in the market for a mirrorless system and are very dissapointed with the way things look to be turning out for the M.
I am not one of those with a limitless supply of funds for camera/gear. I have 2 little ones in daycare and a wife that doesn't accept financial tomfoolery, as I don't either. I absolutely love my M and credit purchasing this awesome little camera with getting me back into my first, and most intense hobby. I love this system for a number of reasons, first and foremost being the size and portability of it. I hike and ride extensively and this has just fit right in. But I chose the M for 2 reasons: I had been with Canon for about 10 years with a 20D and then a 40D, and because of the firesale price. I felt loyal to Canon because, even though I didn't use them very much, I really loved those to cameras. As for the price of the M, I concede that to complain and whine when I bought it at bargain basement price is a littly petty, but since getting the kit I’ve purchased the other two lenses, flash and filters. I have-what I consider to be-a sizeable investment in the Canon version of the mirror less system now. I was really looking forward to a version of the M that would have been more in line with the OMD EM1/5, EP-5 or GX7. Now it's looking very sketchy that we will EVER see that from Canon.

So yes, it pisses me off because now I feel like I've been marginalized by Canon because of my geographic location. Secondly, I am REALLY not interested in selling off all my stuff at probably half or, if I'm lucky, 2/3rds what I paid for it just to get me about 2/3rds the way there to an EP-5, or GX7.

And before I get flamed I'll also acknowledge that in the big scheme of things this is not a big deal. But in my little photography world that I live in on the weekends...this is supremely frustrating hahahahaha...

Your post makes perfect sense.  I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but I'll just point out a couple of things.  First I'm not sure how much you would end up losing if you sold your M gear.  I bought mine in the first fire sale - not as much as yours, though (body + flash + 22mm + 18-55) - didn't like it and sold it a couple of months later on ebay for more than I paid for it all (good timing, perhaps - the first fire sale had just ended).  Second, yesterday amazon's "gold box" camera was an Olympus M43 E-PM2 (same excellent sensor as the OM-D EM5, but no EVF); you could buy it + two kit lenses (the equivalent of 28-84mm & 90-300) for $349.... 

(I also feel inclined to note that while it is, of course, possible to buy from Japan, if enough of us do that it will only reinforce the impression that mirrorless cameras don't sell in the US, thereby continuing the problem!)
[/i]


The thing is, right before the fire sale in July I had pretty much decided on the EP-5 (Olympus). I was going to wait for a bit to see the price drop on it, then on the way home from work I saw the M at 299.99 with the 22mm and said to myself 'For that price I'm a fool if I dont pick this up...'

I was all excited because I thought that I had just bought myself into this system mega cheap and that Canon would come through in the next year with their version of the EP-5 or whatever and all I'd have to do is get the body...

Yeah, so Canon basically has me by the ***** at this point. I'm not gonna jump ship and run the risk of them actually releasing the high end M that we are hoping for.. Unless all of next year goes by and they don't show any movement in that direction.
[/quote]

The same thing happened to me yesterday - I got the kit (18-55) with flash that I ordered for $288, but won't put any more money to the little thing, just maybe an extra battery and that's it. I see there's nothing to look forward to for the system in North America at least.

EOS-M fits my needs for a smaller camera that's not entirely a P&S (bought the elph100 with less than desired IQ and wasn;t happy about it), but with IQ that's about the same as my old 60D that I can walk around and don't mind being snatched away from me :-) Well depends on every person I guess.
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Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« Reply #89 on: December 05, 2013, 02:38:23 PM »