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Author Topic: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?  (Read 8678 times)

NostraHistoria

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Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« on: December 07, 2013, 03:04:33 PM »
I take about 78,000 pictures every year with my T3i. I read that entry-level DSLRs can take about 150,000 pictures. I have had mine for about two years. So, it may have taken over 150,000 pictures. Should I sell it and get a new one now?

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Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« on: December 07, 2013, 03:04:33 PM »

xvnm

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2013, 03:49:01 PM »
Why would you sell a camera that you know is about to stop working? I don't think it is fair to the buyer. Ethics matters.
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alexanderferdinand

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2013, 04:54:09 PM »
If you like it- keep it.
150.000 (I think entry-level last only 100.000) actuations the shutter should work.
Can be much more or less.
If you take some research in the net you find a page where user write in their number of actuations and if its still alive.

bholliman

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2013, 05:00:07 PM »
I would not sell the camera just because you have taken x number pictures.  If the shutter or something else fails, it can be replaced by Canon service for a fraction of the cost of a new camera.  Something may fail soon or it might be years.

Why would you sell a camera that you know is about to stop working? I don't think it is fair to the buyer. Ethics matters.

Its no different than selling a car with 100,000 miles on it.  Make sure the buyer understands how many shots have been taken with it.  Camera shutters are like any other mechanical device, nobody can accurately predict when they will fail.  Some shutters may last 100K actuations and others 250K or more. 
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Don Haines

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2013, 07:27:35 PM »
Reminds me of an old car I once had..... 390,000 kilometers on it and it still worked well, but the resale value was zero. The resale value of a T3i with 150,000 pictures on it is almost nothing, but it does not mean the camera is worthless.... it should still work right up until it's shutter fails, be that tonight or in 3 years.. If it were me, and the camera did all that I wanted of it, I'd keep on using it, but If I were about to go on an epic journey with great photo opportunities somewhere where I could not pick up a new camera, I would start thinking of a new body.
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Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2013, 09:45:54 PM »
Shutter life is rated based on previous product history for items with a similar design.  I haven't seen any authoritative info on the T3i shutter life, but most of the Rebels were up to 100,000 actuations.  They last a little longer because they are limited to 1/4000 sec, otherwise I'd expect a shorter life.
In reality, a shutter may die after 1 use, or last for 10 million.  I wouldn't worry about it, all indications are that it might go for a million or more.  The ones that were going to fail have already failed.

Marsu42

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 03:22:37 AM »
Should I sell it and get a new one now?

Looking at the current ebay sales, the information has sunk in that dslrs age according to shutter use, and most people volunteer this information freely or are asked about it as nowadays as it's easy to get the count... so if you want to sell it, this might be a good time as it didn't exceed the specified shutter cycles.

Canon only rates the cheaper cameras as 100.000, and that includes xxxd, xxd and the €1500 6d. But this a bit of marketing and you can get much more out of them, my 60d currently is at 150k and kicking. Note that very high shutter speeds age the shutter much faster, but you're unlikely to do action bursts with your Rebel all the time.


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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 03:22:37 AM »

rs

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2013, 03:54:18 AM »
Shutter life is rated based on previous product history for items with a similar design.  I haven't seen any authoritative info on the T3i shutter life, but most of the Rebels were up to 100,000 actuations.  They last a little longer because they are limited to 1/4000 sec, otherwise I'd expect a shorter life.
In reality, a shutter may die after 1 use, or last for 10 million.  I wouldn't worry about it, all indications are that it might go for a million or more.  The ones that were going to fail have already failed.

If the camera industry is anything like the automotive industry, any new components (or systems) which are to make it into production will be subjected to a key life test. Basically, a pass/fail standard (including cycle counts) will be predefined, and an automated test procedure designed to replicate normal usage (I guess in the case of a shutter, the odd burst at the cameras max frame rate, many single shots, and a variety of typical shutter speeds, no doubt at various predefined environmental conditions), all with enough time to allow the system to cool/settle sufficiently between cycles. This will only take a couple of weeks to test. Any failure will result in going back to the drawing board. And as the design progresses, later builds which are a closer approximation to the production model might emerge, which should be subject to the same testing procedure.

So the shutter count is just a way of quantifying what the shutter is designed, engineered and tested to. It's a typical usage minimum, not a maximum.

Or, read this to get an idea how long your shutter could last: http://petapixel.com/2012/12/22/look-up-your-cameras-lifespan-with-the-shutter-life-expectancy-database/
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Zv

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2013, 04:01:22 AM »
Keep using it until it dies. If you sell it you should disclose the shutter count in which case not many will want to buy it and therefore you'll be selling it for pennies.

You can get the shutter replaced. I heard it's not that expensive. But you may as well put in a few hundred bucks more and get a better camera. I wouldn't bother replacing a rebel shutter. A 5D or 1D yeah definitely.

I think the 100,000 shot rating is just marketing thing and a safe amount to guarantee. It could potentially take ten times that many shots or maybe die after 100. Just use it until it gives out. You seem to have already gotten your moneys worth to be honest!
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Marsu42

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2013, 04:08:00 AM »
You can get the shutter replaced. I heard it's not that expensive.


Unfortunately in Germany, you pay about €70+ just for the certified technician to pick up the screwdriver, that's why I doubt it's "worth it" for an old xxxd or even xxd if you can get a less used one from ebay. Or is there a cheaper way to replace the shutter than with the official Canon service?

Or, read this to get an idea how long your shutter could last: http://petapixel.com/2012/12/22/look-up-your-cameras-lifespan-with-the-shutter-life-expectancy-database/


Interesting read, looking at the 40d,50d,550d models it seems that if your shutter survives longer than the estimated rating (100k), it is likely to survive even much, much longer. The big question would be why - either these people got "lucky" and their hardware is better, or they shoot at lower shutter speeds or whatnot and there is a cause and effect.

rs

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2013, 04:34:29 AM »
Or, read this to get an idea how long your shutter could last: http://petapixel.com/2012/12/22/look-up-your-cameras-lifespan-with-the-shutter-life-expectancy-database/


Interesting read, looking at the 40d,50d,550d models it seems that if your shutter survives longer than the estimated rating (100k), it is likely to survive even much, much longer. The big question would be why - either these people got "lucky" and their hardware is better, or they shoot at lower shutter speeds or whatnot and there is a cause and effect.

I'd guess environmental conditions play their part. Extreme temperatures push tolerances nearer their limits. Also situations like fast frame rates take their hit on the shutter due to some minor heat build up. However, time lapses might be one of the biggest killers, especially at reasonably fast rates such as two shots per second. After a typical time lapse of many hours, the heat build up, especially in high ambient conditions could really take their toll on the shutter.

The camera will be aimed at a particular market, and the components will be designed and engineered around that typical perceived usage. Step outside of that (such as with heavy timelapse usage with a rebel), and you're in uncharted territory.
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Zv

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2013, 11:45:56 AM »
Or, read this to get an idea how long your shutter could last: http://petapixel.com/2012/12/22/look-up-your-cameras-lifespan-with-the-shutter-life-expectancy-database/


Interesting read, looking at the 40d,50d,550d models it seems that if your shutter survives longer than the estimated rating (100k), it is likely to survive even much, much longer. The big question would be why - either these people got "lucky" and their hardware is better, or they shoot at lower shutter speeds or whatnot and there is a cause and effect.

I'd guess environmental conditions play their part. Extreme temperatures push tolerances nearer their limits. Also situations like fast frame rates take their hit on the shutter due to some minor heat build up. However, time lapses might be one of the biggest killers, especially at reasonably fast rates such as two shots per second. After a typical time lapse of many hours, the heat build up, especially in high ambient conditions could really take their toll on the shutter.

The camera will be aimed at a particular market, and the components will be designed and engineered around that typical perceived usage. Step outside of that (such as with heavy timelapse usage with a rebel), and you're in uncharted territory.


I feel sorry for the poor bastard who only got 2 clicks before the thing died!
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Marsu42

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2013, 12:02:10 PM »
I feel sorry for the poor bastard who only got 2 clicks before the thing died!

You'd rather feel sorry for the guy/gal who had 100001 clicks when it failed and had to pay the replacement her/himself :-p

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2013, 12:02:10 PM »

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2013, 02:06:50 PM »

Interesting read, looking at the 40d,50d,550d models it seems that if your shutter survives longer than the estimated rating (100k), it is likely to survive even much, much longer. The big question would be why - either these people got "lucky" and their hardware is better, or they shoot at lower shutter speeds or whatnot and there is a cause and effect.

That's pretty much standard for reliability.  A item that has already exceeded the average life is likely to keep on working much longer.  It usually means that the fit and alignment of the many small parts and bushings is ideal and can go on working.
 
What causes failure due to wear out is the tiny misalignment of parts so that motor bearings wear out, or other moving parts wear out.  If alignment is perfect, the life can be many times the average.
 
R&M engineers predict life of a assembly using a manual that lists reliability of each component based on known information, or calculated information.  Very seldom do they actually spend $500K to test a part.  For high reliability parts, there is accelerated life testing involved, but it comes down to extrapolation.  Its impossible to test rubber or plastic for a lifetime, or a motor bearing, they should last for 10 years - 1000 years.  That's why they are tested with high and low temperatures, under vibration and shock, etc.  In the end, life is a guess.  In the case of camera shutters, the design from one camera to another is either similar or identical, so the probable reliability numbers are well known.  They can construct a bathtub curve for a typical item.
 
The Japanese and many US industries have adopted a 6 sigma reliability process, I had to impose this on subcontractors for new components, and they resisted at first, but later found it paid back in fewer rejects and failures of expensive components.  Doing it for a part that is so dimensionally accurate that it can't be directly measured is difficult. 

Marsu42

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2013, 02:31:47 PM »
They can construct a bathtub curve for a typical item.

Intersting, thanks for the description. The reason I was wondering is that I "natually" assumed a normal distribution around the predicted shutter life, but I now understand this is wrong because the public estimation wouldn't be the real internal estimation, and the curve is entirely different in technical items.

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Re: Get a new camera every 150,000 pictures?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2013, 02:31:47 PM »