September 18, 2014, 05:55:24 PM

Author Topic: Where are Canons innovation?  (Read 6393 times)

Pitbullo

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Re: Where are Canons innovation?
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2014, 06:53:05 PM »
Auto Micro adjust patent....sound like innovation to me :D

Lol yeah! I saw this announcement earlier and thought, there it is!
Good to see they have taken a pretty basic function, and tries to improve on it as well. Hopefully they will implement focus adjustment in more models, not just 70D and upwards. I really really miss it in my little 550D.

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Re: Where are Canons innovation?
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2014, 06:53:05 PM »

GMCPhotographics

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Re: Where are Canons innovation?
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2014, 05:07:18 AM »
Auto Micro adjust patent....sound like innovation to me :D

Lol yeah! I saw this announcement earlier and thought, there it is!
Good to see they have taken a pretty basic function, and tries to improve on it as well. Hopefully they will implement focus adjustment in more models, not just 70D and upwards. I really really miss it in my little 550D.
I remember when the 40D came out with live view, I was showing a friend of mine who is a professional landscape photographer...at first he was sceptical but pretty soon he saw the benefit. It's a shame it too Canon so long to bring out a 5DII with that feature. At the time a lot of Nikon fanboys were running the feature down. But the ability to compose, meter, check DOF and lens flare so easily is a serious benefit to landscape work. Nikon's implementation of Live view has been patchy and not a fully though out as Canon's...which always makes me laugh when I hear people say the 8D00 is better than the 5DIII for landscape work. Sure, more resolution...but what of the rest of the camera?
Canon's live view now has dual pixel AF, a built in spirit level and has been improved over a number of years. I looked over a D7000 a few months back and it looks like Nikon have gone backwards with theirs.

Then there's the micro adjustment, again it's getting better over time. My 5DII allowed me to adjust each lens, but my 5DIII allows me to adjust zoom lenses at each end of their focal scales...nice. It's looking like a 5D4 might do all this automatically! Very nice!

rs

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Re: Where are Canons innovation?
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2014, 08:32:30 AM »
Where is the downloadable apps for the Camera
http://www.canon.co.uk/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/eos_remote.aspx

Where is Canons equivalent to the Sony A7/R or the Nikon DF?
I hope you're not suggesting the Df is innovative? If so, Morgan make the most innovative cars in existence. There's nothing like a modern engine nailed into a chassis made of timber :)

Sony throw a lot of ideas out there, mostly random. Some stick. Others don't. Some are terrible decisions for their more established user base. For instance, the Sony QX10/100 are fairly random. Buying out Konica Minolta's camera business was a good move, it got them some serious recognition overnight. Now they don't make a single DSLR to go with those great lenses. And there's every indication that the A mount is dead because it appears like all new Sony cameras will have either a crop or FF version of the E mount.

If Sony have an idea, they do it. That includes innovation, and abandoning professional user bases. Canon seem to take a much more considered approach, and as a result pro's can rely on the kit to be dependable - from the reliability point of view, and from the future proofing point of view.

Cheaper Canon DSLR's borrow many of the pro like features and dependability of the pro cameras. For instance, the NEX cameras couldn't be used effectively in challenging conditions such as when its too cold to not wear gloves. Plenty of tech thrown at them to entertain the masses, but really nothing much that actually contributes to it being a better tool for the job.

Canon have given us the first viable FF digital camera. Dual pixel PDAF. More patents than any other photographic company. And their apparent commitment to the mount coupled with their market leading sales puts us all in a comfortable position when it comes to investing more in the system. I'm guessing the value of all those KM/Sony A mount lenses are right on the edge of a cliff...

If I'd spent all my camera/lens money on the Sony A mount system, I'd be in a very difficult place right now.
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sdsr

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Re: Where are Canons innovation?
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2014, 11:01:41 AM »

I am not denying that Canon is not innovating, they are, how else would they be market leader! They have an enormous R&D department, not only for photography, but also medical imaging (I use large Canon x-ray detectors at work, they are very good!). However they dont listen too much at customers. How many years did it take for them to implement Auto ISO in M-mode? Oh, and only in the 1DX, which cost way too much for most people. Do they even have spot metering linked to the chosen focus point? Fokus peaking? Zebra? Intervallometer? No!! They dont listen too much. They are a business, and in it to make money, and that they do well. Canon make a camera, not to be as good as it can be, but to fit a gap in the market. Reasonable, but not exciting. As you put it, "Canon, given their track record, doesn't give a flying rat's ass about "the competition." This is very arrogant, and is sure gonna cost them customers. We saw a little about this in the 50D -> 60D, more or less gimping the camera. In the 70D, they redeemd themself.

Comparing the old 550D with the rather new nex-6 is not fair, but how did the rebel series develop? Sensor, pretty much the same from 550D to 700D (minor tweaks). 550D -> 600D, added wireless flash control. 600D -> 650D, touch screen and articulated screen, also upped the AF (?), 650D -> 700D Changed the knob to go all the way around... Small steps, carefull evolution, nothing big. Though, they are entry level cameras, they could have done more, not keeping at a minimum all the time. But then again, as tools they are good, steady cameras. No denying!


You seem to be relying in part on a few questionable assumptions.  First, the fact that Canon doesn't make some change that you or a handful of contributors to internet forums want doesn't mean they don't listen - maybe they're listening to those with other priorities.  Second, how many significant innovations result from listening to customers?  Who asked for focus peaking (which doesn't work very well anyway) and zebra?  They might be nice features, but surely they're simply another example of supply creating demand (but not much, apparently).  As for the marginal variations from one Rebel to the next, that's true of most entry-level cameras, isn't it?  They're the cameras they sell the most, and companies seem to think (and perhaps they're right, otherwise why bother?) they need to keep issuing new ones every year to keep consumers interested.  Frustrating for those suffering from Gear Acquisition Syndrome, perhaps, but otherwise hardly important.

To the extent that Canon appears cautious (as you concede, they obviously don't lack innovation in what are arguably the most important areas), perhaps it's with good reason.  Much of the innovation you describe involves mirrorless cameras.  I happen to like that technology a lot (as implemented by some companies, at any rate), but there's no denying that aside from parts of Asia the overwhelming majority of camera-buyers aren't interested, and they are evidently the consumers Canon are listening to.  What's more, lots of these innovations are rather limited in practical effect.  With Fuji, for instance, who appear to be constantly responding to customer requests with firmware updates, you get an innovative sensor with very low noise but images that seldom look really sharp, an AF system that may finally be fast but still isn't accurate enough, and RAW files that are hard to manipulate with even the best software (DxO doesn't even try, perhaps with good reason).  Sony A7/7r?  Putting superb FF sensors in a small body is an innovation of sorts, and they handle very nicely (though not as well as Olympus OM-Ds), but their main virtue, and the only reason why I bought a 7R, is more than a tad anachronistic: you can now easily use legacy manual lenses (plus most other lenses) on a FF digital camera (if only it had IBIS...).  And it's just as well, because as we all know there are hardly any native lenses for them, and, aside from the (quite decent) kit zoom, they're expensive.  So far, despite their superb image quality,  it's hard to consider them as more than an appealing adjunct to a better developed system such as are provided by Canon and Nikon dslrs or, if you don't need/want FF, Micro 4/3.  (One professional's adventures in trying to make the A7/r his main kit are the subject of many entries in his blog, which is well worth reading if you don't know it: http://soundimageplus.blogspot.com/)

Of course, those who really want innovation should get one of these:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/new-hasselblad-lunar-titanium-version/

Who else can sell you what's essentially a Sony Nex with a mediocre kit lens in the ugliest casing yet invented
for a mere 7200 Euros, pre-tax?

3kramd5

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Re: Where are Canons innovation?
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2014, 11:45:34 AM »
Nikon doesn't make a fraction of the revenue Canon does on their photography division. That doesn't bode well for future Nikon innovation. As it stands, the bulk of the innovation in Nikon's most recent camera bodies came from other companies, like Sony. That is a precarious position to be in...relying on other companies so much. If any one of them faltered or failed, Nikon could be dragged right down with them.
This is a point so important that it is staggering! There are not a lot of companies out there producing large quantities of imaging sensors that could go into DSLR's... What happens if Sony fails, or at the least, gets rid of the portion of it's business that makes the sensors for Nikon? Hopefully, someone will buy that division and the production will continue, but if it doesn't, Nikon will be out of business until someone else can set up a production line and get up to speed... a process that will take years....

I think Nikon could probably fabricate their own sensors. They used to in years past. Their management thought it would be more profitable to stop investing money in their own fabrication, and buy their sensors and the like third party.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but doesn't Nikon fab the D4 sensor?
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jrista

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Re: Where are Canons innovation?
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2014, 12:05:39 PM »
Nikon doesn't make a fraction of the revenue Canon does on their photography division. That doesn't bode well for future Nikon innovation. As it stands, the bulk of the innovation in Nikon's most recent camera bodies came from other companies, like Sony. That is a precarious position to be in...relying on other companies so much. If any one of them faltered or failed, Nikon could be dragged right down with them.
This is a point so important that it is staggering! There are not a lot of companies out there producing large quantities of imaging sensors that could go into DSLR's... What happens if Sony fails, or at the least, gets rid of the portion of it's business that makes the sensors for Nikon? Hopefully, someone will buy that division and the production will continue, but if it doesn't, Nikon will be out of business until someone else can set up a production line and get up to speed... a process that will take years....

I think Nikon could probably fabricate their own sensors. They used to in years past. Their management thought it would be more profitable to stop investing money in their own fabrication, and buy their sensors and the like third party.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but doesn't Nikon fab the D4 sensor?

They designed it, or at least had a hand in its design, much like the D800 sensor. I am not sure they actually manufactured it...I thought Aptina did the actual fabrication.
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3kramd5

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Re: Where are Canons innovation?
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2014, 12:31:38 PM »
Nikon doesn't make a fraction of the revenue Canon does on their photography division. That doesn't bode well for future Nikon innovation. As it stands, the bulk of the innovation in Nikon's most recent camera bodies came from other companies, like Sony. That is a precarious position to be in...relying on other companies so much. If any one of them faltered or failed, Nikon could be dragged right down with them.
This is a point so important that it is staggering! There are not a lot of companies out there producing large quantities of imaging sensors that could go into DSLR's... What happens if Sony fails, or at the least, gets rid of the portion of it's business that makes the sensors for Nikon? Hopefully, someone will buy that division and the production will continue, but if it doesn't, Nikon will be out of business until someone else can set up a production line and get up to speed... a process that will take years....

I think Nikon could probably fabricate their own sensors. They used to in years past. Their management thought it would be more profitable to stop investing money in their own fabrication, and buy their sensors and the like third party.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but doesn't Nikon fab the D4 sensor?

They designed it, or at least had a hand in its design, much like the D800 sensor. I am not sure they actually manufactured it...I thought Aptina did the actual fabrication.

Could be. This is what I found: http://nikonrumors.com/2012/08/22/the-sensor-inside-the-d4-is-made-by-nikon.aspx/
but it is hardly conclusive. I have worked for companies which sell circuit cards. They usually went outside for fab, but included their logo in a silkscreen layer.

Either way, it's not particularly relevant. Even if they build sensors for the D4, D3200, etc., Sony halting their line would be a huge speedbump for Nikon.
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Re: Where are Canons innovation?
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2014, 12:31:38 PM »

jrista

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Re: Where are Canons innovation?
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2014, 03:31:53 PM »
Nikon doesn't make a fraction of the revenue Canon does on their photography division. That doesn't bode well for future Nikon innovation. As it stands, the bulk of the innovation in Nikon's most recent camera bodies came from other companies, like Sony. That is a precarious position to be in...relying on other companies so much. If any one of them faltered or failed, Nikon could be dragged right down with them.
This is a point so important that it is staggering! There are not a lot of companies out there producing large quantities of imaging sensors that could go into DSLR's... What happens if Sony fails, or at the least, gets rid of the portion of it's business that makes the sensors for Nikon? Hopefully, someone will buy that division and the production will continue, but if it doesn't, Nikon will be out of business until someone else can set up a production line and get up to speed... a process that will take years....

I think Nikon could probably fabricate their own sensors. They used to in years past. Their management thought it would be more profitable to stop investing money in their own fabrication, and buy their sensors and the like third party.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but doesn't Nikon fab the D4 sensor?

They designed it, or at least had a hand in its design, much like the D800 sensor. I am not sure they actually manufactured it...I thought Aptina did the actual fabrication.

Could be. This is what I found: http://nikonrumors.com/2012/08/22/the-sensor-inside-the-d4-is-made-by-nikon.aspx/
but it is hardly conclusive. I have worked for companies which sell circuit cards. They usually went outside for fab, but included their logo in a silkscreen layer.

Either way, it's not particularly relevant. Even if they build sensors for the D4, D3200, etc., Sony halting their line would be a huge speedbump for Nikon.

Yeah, kind of hard to be conclusive about it. Some of Canon's parts have Canon's name on them, but fabrication markings from other fabs. For example, DIGIC5 has Canon's name, because they designed it (along with Ti), but it was fabbed by UMC (http://www.chipworks.com/en/technical-competitive-analysis/resources/blog/inside-the-canon-rebel-t4i-dslr/). I know Nikon has had a hand in designing most if not all of the parts that are included in their cameras. I honestly don't know when they last fabbed their own sensor, though.

As far as Canon goes, I am very curious to see Chipworks tear apart whatever new sensor finds it's way into the 7D II. If it has some radical changes, especially a die shrink, I'd be very curious to know if it was fabbed by Canon, or fabbed elsewhere.
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jrista

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Re: Where are Canons innovation?
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2014, 06:01:06 PM »
Sorry, I do not think Aptina has anything to do with Nikon D4, it is a Renesas made sensor as in D3

And what information do you have to back that up? There is no mention of CMOS Image Sensors on Renesas' site. I found one article that mentioned Nikon uses Renesas microcomputer parts for controller chips in some of their cameras, but that is not the same thing as a CMOS Image Sensor.

Chipworks has a breakdown of the D4 sensor, however you have to pay (a hefty price) for it. The only other mentions of the D4 sensor is on Nikon Rumors, and last I remember, it was there that I saw the D4 sensor and Aptina mentioned together. Chipworks also did a breakdown of the D3 sensor, and they mentioned Renesas as a possibility, but only because they had prior ties to Nikon (for the controllers), however they also noted that Renesas has no history of actually manufacturing CIS parts (despite apparently having a couple patents for CIS technology.)

The Renesas idea has been brought up before, but there is absolutely no hard evidence to suggest they actually fabbed any Nikon sensors. The only concrete link between Nikon and Renesas is for controllers. There were numerous debates on DPR about Renesas and Nikon, even there there has never been any conclusion that Renesas has ever manufactured a CIS part, let alone any D3/D3s/D4 sensors.

Aptina, on the other hand, most definitely has a very powerful and strong presence in the CIS world. If any third party, other than Toshiba and Sony, has ties with Nikon to manufacture sensors, it would be Aptina.
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Re: Where are Canons innovation?
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2014, 06:01:06 PM »