Tokina 24-70 f/2.8 Pro FX Spotted

[tron]

So if their new lens firmware is not upgradeable by the buyers feel free to risk your money to ... save some in the first place.

Fortunately these times are over now. Almost every programmable circuit nowadays uses flash memory for holding its firmware, and flash memory can be reprogrammed, usually with the circuit in place. As a result, Canon has not pulled another "we'll change the protocol a tiny bit so some third party lenses won't work with new camera models" stunt since 2003.

I think Canon/Nikon do continue to pull stunts with firmware upgrades that mess around with the AF of third party lenses or third party batteries suddenly stop working/report errors etc ... I've had several Sigma, Tamron lens that had developed sudden change of behavior after a firmware update from Canon/Nikon. True they can be fixed by the lens manufacturer's service center (if your city or country has one ... unfortunately, the country I live in, does not have a service center for third party lens manufacturers).

I do not think Canon has to care about third party lenses (unless there is a contract saying otherwise). Anyway if someone wants to risk with third party, it's their money. For me the actions of the past define the future. I have had my share with 3rd party lenses. Now I have sold anything  Sigma and Tamron I had and I am left with a Zeiss.

[Albi86]

I agree with Rienz, this lens has to offer a particularly good price/quality advantage to be competitive.

The Canon is super good and super expensive, with a rumored IS version coming up next.

The Tamron is outstanding in price/performance and also has VC.

Sigma eventually needs to refresh their f/2.8 zooms too.

[tron]

So if their new lens firmware is not upgradeable by the buyers feel free to risk your money to ... save some in the first place.

Fortunately these times are over now. Almost every programmable circuit nowadays uses flash memory for holding its firmware, and flash memory can be reprogrammed, usually with the circuit in place. As a result, Canon has not pulled another "we'll change the protocol a tiny bit so some third party lenses won't work with new camera models" stunt since 2003.

I think Canon/Nikon do continue to pull stunts with firmware upgrades that mess around with the AF of third party lenses or third party batteries suddenly stop working/report errors etc ... I've had several Sigma, Tamron lens that had developed sudden change of behavior after a firmware update from Canon/Nikon. True they can be fixed by the lens manufacturer's service center (if your city or country has one ... unfortunately, the country I live in, does not have a service center for third party lens manufacturers).

+1 Having flash memory (if they indeed have flash memory) is NOT ENOUGH. It's their willingness to backup their lenses with GOOD SUPPORT. So, they have to MAKE the firmware to upgrade the one residing in ... flash memory... So, as I said feel free to spend your money and test good support later. And by later I mean many years actually as many as with Canon lenses.  Because if someone gets an expensive lens with very good IQ they want to keep using it or ... sell it. Certainly not ditch it...

[Rudeofus]

+1 Having flash memory (if they indeed have flash memory) is NOT ENOUGH. It's their willingness to backup their lenses with GOOD SUPPORT. So, they have to MAKE the firmware to upgrade the one residing in ... flash memory... So, as I said feel free to spend your money and test good support later. And by later I mean many years actually as many as with Canon lenses.  Because if someone gets an expensive lens with very good IQ they want to keep using it or ... sell it. Certainly not ditch it...

You just brought up a great new idea: third party makers could add a USB connector to their flash devices or make a special USB dock for their lenses. This would make firmware upgrades really easy ....

[Rienzphotoz]

+1 Having flash memory (if they indeed have flash memory) is NOT ENOUGH. It's their willingness to backup their lenses with GOOD SUPPORT. So, they have to MAKE the firmware to upgrade the one residing in ... flash memory... So, as I said feel free to spend your money and test good support later. And by later I mean many years actually as many as with Canon lenses.  Because if someone gets an expensive lens with very good IQ they want to keep using it or ... sell it. Certainly not ditch it...

You just brought up a great new idea: third party makers could add a USB connector to their flash devices or make a special USB dock for their lenses. This would make firmware upgrades really easy ....

For several years now, Metz, (a German consumer electronic company) has been routinely providing firmware updates on their flashes (for customers to update on their own), to address compatibility issues with newer cameras. I still have the Metz 58 AF 1 flash (which I bought in 2008) and have updated the firmware at least twice, until the plastic hot shoe broke ... now it just sits in my cupboard to be used as a wireless flash once in a while. Also, Sigma has the USB dock for their newer lenses. I think in future we will see more and more manufacturers coming up with USB firmware updates for their lenses and flashes etc.

[tron]

Sigma has a USB dock already. Has anyone used it? Any opinions on that ?

[Rudeofus]

+1 Having flash memory (if they indeed have flash memory) is NOT ENOUGH. It's their willingness to backup their lenses with GOOD SUPPORT. So, they have to MAKE the firmware to upgrade the one residing in ... flash memory... So, as I said feel free to spend your money and test good support later. And by later I mean many years actually as many as with Canon lenses.  Because if someone gets an expensive lens with very good IQ they want to keep using it or ... sell it. Certainly not ditch it...

You just brought up a great new idea: third party makers could add a USB connector to their flash devices or make a special USB dock for their lenses. This would make firmware upgrades really easy ....

For several years now, Metz, (a German consumer electronic company) has been routinely providing firmware updates on their flashes (for customers to update on their own), to address compatibility issues with newer cameras. I still have the Metz 58 AF 1 flash (which I bought in 2008) and have updated the firmware at least twice, until the plastic hot shoe broke ... now it just sits in my cupboard to be used as a wireless flash once in a while. Also, Sigma has the USB dock for their newer lenses. I think in future we will see more and more manufacturers coming up with USB firmware updates for their lenses and flashes etc.

Sigma has a USB dock already. Has anyone used it? Any opinions on that ?

WTF. Did anybody bother looking at the links I provided in my posting ??

[tron]

+1 Having flash memory (if they indeed have flash memory) is NOT ENOUGH. It's their willingness to backup their lenses with GOOD SUPPORT. So, they have to MAKE the firmware to upgrade the one residing in ... flash memory... So, as I said feel free to spend your money and test good support later. And by later I mean many years actually as many as with Canon lenses.  Because if someone gets an expensive lens with very good IQ they want to keep using it or ... sell it. Certainly not ditch it...

You just brought up a great new idea: third party makers could add a USB connector to their flash devices or make a special USB dock for their lenses. This would make firmware upgrades really easy ....

For several years now, Metz, (a German consumer electronic company) has been routinely providing firmware updates on their flashes (for customers to update on their own), to address compatibility issues with newer cameras. I still have the Metz 58 AF 1 flash (which I bought in 2008) and have updated the firmware at least twice, until the plastic hot shoe broke ... now it just sits in my cupboard to be used as a wireless flash once in a while. Also, Sigma has the USB dock for their newer lenses. I think in future we will see more and more manufacturers coming up with USB firmware updates for their lenses and flashes etc.

Sigma has a USB dock already. Has anyone used it? Any opinions on that ?

WTF. Did anybody bother looking at the links I provided in my posting ??

The question was whether anyone used it. Not a simple reference to its existence!!! 

[Rienzphotoz]

+1 Having flash memory (if they indeed have flash memory) is NOT ENOUGH. It's their willingness to backup their lenses with GOOD SUPPORT. So, they have to MAKE the firmware to upgrade the one residing in ... flash memory... So, as I said feel free to spend your money and test good support later. And by later I mean many years actually as many as with Canon lenses.  Because if someone gets an expensive lens with very good IQ they want to keep using it or ... sell it. Certainly not ditch it...

You just brought up a great new idea: third party makers could add a USB connector to their flash devices or make a special USB dock for their lenses. This would make firmware upgrades really easy ....

For several years now, Metz, (a German consumer electronic company) has been routinely providing firmware updates on their flashes (for customers to update on their own), to address compatibility issues with newer cameras. I still have the Metz 58 AF 1 flash (which I bought in 2008) and have updated the firmware at least twice, until the plastic hot shoe broke ... now it just sits in my cupboard to be used as a wireless flash once in a while. Also, Sigma has the USB dock for their newer lenses. I think in future we will see more and more manufacturers coming up with USB firmware updates for their lenses and flashes etc.

Sigma has a USB dock already. Has anyone used it? Any opinions on that ?

WTF. Did anybody bother looking at the links I provided in my posting ??

Relax, we are not stealing your thunder, I did read and understand that you were already aware of their existence, I was merely stating my experience of having used Metaz flash and also having tried the Sigma USB dock ... so the credit for mentioning them first goes only to you 
Peace

[Rienzphotoz]

Sigma has a USB dock already. Has anyone used it? Any opinions on that ?

One of my colleagues bought the Sigma USB dock (along with the Sigma 35 f/1.4 lens), so I got a chance to hold it, but from what he tells me, he never updated anything with it yet (this was about 45 days ago) ... as pointed out by Kai (the crazy Digitalrev guy), the light to indicate, that it is working, is bloody under the USB dock, i.e. in a place where you cannot see while using it .. kind of a strange place to keep it ... and that's about what I know of the USB dock. If you haven't already seen it, here is the youtube video Kai had posted last October
Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 DC HSM Hands-on Review

[Rudeofus]

Relax, we are not stealing your thunder, I did read and understand that you were already aware of their existence, I was merely stating my experience of having used Metaz flash and also having tried the Sigma USB dock ... so the credit for mentioning them first goes only to you 

Their existence is an old and well known fact, especially on a rumor site where new products are discussed in depth many weeks/months before their official announcement. My posting was deliberately sarcastic and aimed at people who perpetuate the "then Canon changes the protocol and my expensive third party accessory will be worthless" meme. These times are over, they have been over for over a decade AFAIK, and we should put that meme to rest already.

[tron]

Relax, we are not stealing your thunder, I did read and understand that you were already aware of their existence, I was merely stating my experience of having used Metaz flash and also having tried the Sigma USB dock ... so the credit for mentioning them first goes only to you 

Their existence is an old and well known fact, especially on a rumor site where new products are discussed in depth many weeks/months before their official announcement. My posting was deliberately sarcastic and aimed at people who perpetuate the "then Canon changes the protocol and my expensive third party accessory will be worthless" meme. These times are over, they have been over for over a decade AFAIK, and we should put that meme to rest already.

1. Put it to rest and spend your money. Then if something breaks wait for the 3rd party companies to really change the firmware...

2. Plus, you were so busy being sarcastic regarding the Sigma USB dock that you failed to read the second part of the 1 line post: "Has anyone used it? Any opinions on that ?"

3. I do not recall reading about other 3rd party manufacturers doing the same as Sigma...

[Rienzphotoz]

Relax, we are not stealing your thunder, I did read and understand that you were already aware of their existence, I was merely stating my experience of having used Metaz flash and also having tried the Sigma USB dock ... so the credit for mentioning them first goes only to you 

Their existence is an old and well known fact, especially on a rumor site where new products are discussed in depth many weeks/months before their official announcement.

My posting was deliberately sarcastic and aimed at people who perpetuate the "then Canon changes the protocol and my expensive third party accessory will be worthless" meme. These times are over, they have been over for over a decade AFAIK, and we should put that meme to rest already.

Even though you know "their existence is an old and well known fact" you felt the need to post it, but when others also mention it you feel the need to be sarcastic ... how logical
 
Anyway, FYI my first DSLR was bought about 8 years ago and it was a Nikon D70 (and later on my first Canon was a 400D), at that time, other than the 18-55 kits lens that came with the camera, I had bought only Sigma & Tamron lenses, because I was not willing to spend more for OEM lenses ... and all of the third party lenses I had bought did a great job, until I upgraded to a new camera or updated the firmware. Since the past 8 years I have owned the following third party lenses:
Sigma 10-20 (Canon mount)
Sigma 10-20 f/3.5 (Nikon mount)
Sigma 17-50 f2.8 (non OS - Canon mount)
Sigma 17-50 f/2.8 OS (Nikon mount)
Sigma 18-200 OS (Canon mount)
Sigma 18-250 OS (Nikon mount)
Sigma 150mm f/2.8 Macro (Non-OS - Nikon mount)
Sigma 150mm f/2.8 Macro OS (Canon mount)
Sigma 50-500 (non OS - Canon mount)
Sigma 150-500 OS (Canon mount)
Sigma 150-500 OS (Nikon mount)
Tamron 17-50 f2.8 OS (Nikon mount)
Tamron 17-50 f2.8 OS (Canon mount)
Tamron 24-70 f/2.8 VC (Canon mount)
Tamron 90mm f/2.8 Macro (Canon mount)
Tokina 11-16 (Canon mount)
Rokinon 24mm f3.5 T/S (Canon mount)
(I'm pretty sure I had a few more third party lenses, but cannot recollect all of them)

Every single one of those lenses developed some issueor another with AF or OS/VC after upgrading to a new camera or firmware, they would suddenly start hunting for auto focusing on a subject or the image stabilization would take longer to be activated and/or drain the battery with the OS/VC on even when they were not being used ... were they useless? absolutely not, coz I could still get great images with every one of them (except the Rokinon T/S, which was just a sh!tty lens from the beginning) but the issues they developed were annoying. I am sure a visit to the the third party manufacturers service center will fix those issues, but (as mentioned earlier) where I live there is no service center for third party lens manufacturers ... so I basically sell my third party gear whenever I upgrade to a new camera or new firmware ... luckily I have several friends and colleagues who are always willing to buy my camera gear ... the last 2 third party lenses I sold were the Sigma 150-500 OS & Tamron 24-70 VC about a few weeks ago.  But I will still buy the Sigma 18-35 f/1.8 lens for my Canon 70D (knowing full well that many people are reporting AF hunting issues) but I don't think third party lenses are "worthless".

[Rudeofus]

Even though you know "their existence is an old and well known fact" you felt the need to post it, but when others also mention it you feel the need to be sarcastic ... how logical

I posted these old news in reply to a posting which perpetuated the old "I won't get upgrades if Canon plays silly again" meme, and the sarcastic tone (stemming from the obvious contradiction between my praise for the other guy's invention paired with the links to already existing products implementing that very feature) was another futile attempt to put that meme to rest for good. Read tron's posting immediately before my first one in this thread and then mine to get the context.

Every single one of those lenses developed some issueor another with AF or OS/VC after upgrading to a new camera or firmware, they would suddenly start hunting for auto focusing on a subject or the image stabilization would take longer to be activated and/or drain the battery with the OS/VC on even when they were not being used ... were they useless? absolutely not, coz I could still get great images with every one of them (except the Rokinon T/S, which was just a sh!tty lens from the beginning) but the issues they developed were annoying. I am sure a visit to the the third party manufacturers service center will fix those issues, but (as mentioned earlier) where I live there is no service center for third party lens manufacturers

I admire your patience, but personally I would not invest big money in gear that is unsupported in my country. If Sigma/Tamron/whoever are unable or unwilling to provide adequate service for their equipment in your place, they don't deserve your money. Software upgrades aren't the only reason you need a service center.

1. Put it to rest and spend your money. Then if something breaks wait for the 3rd party companies to really change the firmware...

Funny thing is all the pros I see rarely have brand new gear with them. It's usually wannabe amateurs who need the latest and greatest the minute it hits the market, when it is sold at a premium and hasn't received thorough testing yet.

With a few months of patience you can save 20+% on camera bodies AND can use cheaper third party accessories.

3. I do not recall reading about other 3rd party manufacturers doing the same as Sigma...

• Metz flashes come with a USB connector for firmware upgrades. My first post in this thread links to the relevant page
• Sigma received the most heat during the last decade, because in 2003 (release of the 10D) a long list of lenses in their lineup could no longer be used on Canon's latest and greatest, and Sigma decided to throw their customers under the bus. They seemed to have learned their lesson lately and want to be seen not as cheap alternative but as viable and well reputed alternative. Since that Err99 debacle is still in people's minds, Sigma had to come up with a viable option for simple upgrades.

[tron]

I admire your patience, but personally I would not invest big money in gear that is unsupported in my country. If Sigma/Tamron/whoever are unable or unwilling to provide adequate service for their equipment in your place, they don't deserve your money. Software upgrades aren't the only reason you need a service center.

Then I cannot see how we disagree.  I agree with this 100%. And judging by the companies behavior in the past we have the right to act accordingly in the future...