October 21, 2014, 10:07:05 PM

Author Topic: Prime v Zoom Bokeh  (Read 3246 times)

ajfotofilmagem

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2014, 11:28:51 AM »
The 85mm is having issues which it was in this shot of front and back focussing which having spent some time calibrating is not getting any better and even on tripod shutter release etc will take the same shot with different focuses. At one stage i had it racked out to -20 MFA just to get it on focus. I do primarily use primes for weddings but have not yet decided on the prime to go for the longer work , 135 F2 is very tempting but may be to long for indoors. The 5D3 does correct for lenses but its not able to make much of the terrible PF on the 85mm !
I agree about the PF issue on the 85, and no in-camera corrections will fix longitudinal CA (just lateral, which the 85 doesn't have a problem with). Lightroom does a good job with it's new fringe corrections, but you have to optimize each image individually which really slows down your workflow. I imagine that would kill a wedding photog, with all those white high-contrast edges.
The 135L is wonderful and has MUCH less (almost no) PF/GF issues wide open in my experience, but it is pretty long indoors. Pretty much limits you to head/shoulders unless you're in a big venue. I'm thinking about selling my 85 and just using my 100 macro since I get so annoyed with the PF at <2.8 anyway.
The one thing i dont get is how so many people rate it so highly yet at the same time people struggle to get any use out of it at 1.8-2.8 surely thats the whole point of the 85mm Prime ? Or are there just big QC issues with this lens in particular - maybe someone from Sigma worked for Canon at that time  ;)
Let the options:
Canon 85mm F1.8 - Not just your copy that has annoying purple fringing.
Canon 100mm F2 - Much better contrast and PF when open, compared to 85mm.
Sigma 85mm F1.4 - Has very ugly CA in bokeh (longitudinal CA).
Canon 85mm F1.2 - Have a little longitudinal CA, but from F2 becomes barely noticeable.

Looks like you'll have to go to the Canon L, or wait for a future Sigma Art.

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2014, 11:28:51 AM »

Andrew Davies Photography

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2014, 11:52:10 AM »
The 85mm is having issues which it was in this shot of front and back focussing which having spent some time calibrating is not getting any better and even on tripod shutter release etc will take the same shot with different focuses. At one stage i had it racked out to -20 MFA just to get it on focus. I do primarily use primes for weddings but have not yet decided on the prime to go for the longer work , 135 F2 is very tempting but may be to long for indoors. The 5D3 does correct for lenses but its not able to make much of the terrible PF on the 85mm !
I agree about the PF issue on the 85, and no in-camera corrections will fix longitudinal CA (just lateral, which the 85 doesn't have a problem with). Lightroom does a good job with it's new fringe corrections, but you have to optimize each image individually which really slows down your workflow. I imagine that would kill a wedding photog, with all those white high-contrast edges.
The 135L is wonderful and has MUCH less (almost no) PF/GF issues wide open in my experience, but it is pretty long indoors. Pretty much limits you to head/shoulders unless you're in a big venue. I'm thinking about selling my 85 and just using my 100 macro since I get so annoyed with the PF at <2.8 anyway.
The one thing i dont get is how so many people rate it so highly yet at the same time people struggle to get any use out of it at 1.8-2.8 surely thats the whole point of the 85mm Prime ? Or are there just big QC issues with this lens in particular - maybe someone from Sigma worked for Canon at that time  ;)
Let the options:
Canon 85mm F1.8 - Not just your copy that has annoying purple fringing.
Canon 100mm F2 - Much better contrast and PF when open, compared to 85mm.
Sigma 85mm F1.4 - Has very ugly CA in bokeh (longitudinal CA).
Canon 85mm F1.2 - Have a little longitudinal CA, but from F2 becomes barely noticeable.

Looks like you'll have to go to the Canon L, or wait for a future Sigma Art.

Thanks !

The Canon L is reputed to be slow focussing and given the Sigma problems with QC which by all accounts are still not solved with their latest 50mm Art i am put off going that route.

The Canon 100mm is this really better glass ? does it have extra elements or anything that put it ahead of the 85mm as it seems to be from the same era ?

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ajfotofilmagem

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2014, 01:32:52 PM »
Canon 85mm F1.8 have 9 elements in 7 groups, while 100mm F2 have 8 elements in 6 groups, and the diameter of the front element also differs. So are two different optical designs. I'm not in my hands 85 and 100 at the same time to make a direct comparison. :( But I have Canon 50mm F1.4 and 100mm F2, and did side by side comparison. :) The result is that the sharpness, contrast and longitudinal CA shown with Canon 100mm F2 wide open, is comparable to 50mm f1.4 when stopped down to F2.2. ::) Maybe I was drawn to the 100mm F2 best of all time. :P For best performance, the only options for truly usable images in F2, are the 85L and 135L. 8)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 06:21:55 PM by ajfotofilmagem »

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2014, 03:32:57 PM »
Quote from: Andrew Davies Photography
link=topic=20815.msg394134#msg394134 date=1399391530
The Canon L is reputed to be slow focussing

It focuses as quickly as you can turn the ring. Unless you're too lazy and use autofocus :P
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mackguyver

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2014, 03:50:36 PM »
Quote from: Andrew Davies Photography
link=topic=20815.msg394134#msg394134 date=1399391530
The Canon L is reputed to be slow focussing

It focuses as quickly as you can turn the ring. Unless you're too lazy and use autofocus :P
It is very slow and the focus by wire manual AF isn't great, either, but not so slow as to be unusable.  The trade off is exceptional image quality, and it is every bit as good as you've heard.  If you don't need/want to shoot below f/2.8, the 70-200 f/2.8 IS II makes a lot more sense from a practicality standpoint, but it's those f/1.2-2 shots that are amazing.

3kramd5

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2014, 04:09:00 PM »
Quote from: Andrew Davies Photography
link=topic=20815.msg394134#msg394134 date=1399391530
The Canon L is reputed to be slow focussing

It focuses as quickly as you can turn the ring. Unless you're too lazy and use autofocus :P
It is very slow and the focus by wire manual AF isn't great, either, but not so slow as to be unusable.  The trade off is exceptional image quality, and it is every bit as good as you've heard.  If you don't need/want to shoot below f/2.8, the 70-200 f/2.8 IS II makes a lot more sense from a practicality standpoint, but it's those f/1.2-2 shots that are amazing.

Sure, the quasi manual focus is a little strange. I was just offering worthless commentary about what I thought to be an odd disconnect (zoom lenses are for lazy people willing to sacrifice IQ for convenience, but autofocus evidently is not for lazy people willing to sacrifice accuracy for convenience).
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mackguyver

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2014, 04:19:09 PM »
Quote from: Andrew Davies Photography
link=topic=20815.msg394134#msg394134 date=1399391530
The Canon L is reputed to be slow focussing

It focuses as quickly as you can turn the ring. Unless you're too lazy and use autofocus :P
It is very slow and the focus by wire manual AF isn't great, either, but not so slow as to be unusable.  The trade off is exceptional image quality, and it is every bit as good as you've heard.  If you don't need/want to shoot below f/2.8, the 70-200 f/2.8 IS II makes a lot more sense from a practicality standpoint, but it's those f/1.2-2 shots that are amazing.

Sure, the quasi manual focus is a little strange. I was just offering worthless commentary about what I thought to be an odd disconnect (zoom lenses are for lazy people willing to sacrifice IQ for convenience, but autofocus evidently is not for lazy people willing to sacrifice accuracy for convenience).
I get the humor, but without a good viewfinder screen, manual focus at f/1.2 is pretty much impossible to do well or consistently.

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2014, 04:19:09 PM »

Menace

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2014, 04:29:21 PM »
Quote from: Andrew Davies Photography
link=topic=20815.msg394134#msg394134 date=1399391530
The Canon L is reputed to be slow focussing

It focuses as quickly as you can turn the ring. Unless you're too lazy and use autofocus :P
It is very slow and the focus by wire manual AF isn't great, either, but not so slow as to be unusable.  The trade off is exceptional image quality, and it is every bit as good as you've heard.  If you don't need/want to shoot below f/2.8, the 70-200 f/2.8 IS II makes a lot more sense from a practicality standpoint, but it's those f/1.2-2 shots that are amazing.

Sure, the quasi manual focus is a little strange. I was just offering worthless commentary about what I thought to be an odd disconnect (zoom lenses are for lazy people willing to sacrifice IQ for convenience, but autofocus evidently is not for lazy people willing to sacrifice accuracy for convenience).
I get the humor, but without a good viewfinder screen, manual focus at f/1.2 is pretty much impossible to do well or consistently.

Well said.

Bodies like 5DIII and 1Dx can nail auto focus on the 85 at f1.2 consistently.
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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2014, 04:53:58 PM »
Quote from: Andrew Davies Photography
link=topic=20815.msg394134#msg394134 date=1399391530
The Canon L is reputed to be slow focussing

It focuses as quickly as you can turn the ring. Unless you're too lazy and use autofocus :P
It is very slow and the focus by wire manual AF isn't great, either, but not so slow as to be unusable.  The trade off is exceptional image quality, and it is every bit as good as you've heard.  If you don't need/want to shoot below f/2.8, the 70-200 f/2.8 IS II makes a lot more sense from a practicality standpoint, but it's those f/1.2-2 shots that are amazing.

Sure, the quasi manual focus is a little strange. I was just offering worthless commentary about what I thought to be an odd disconnect (zoom lenses are for lazy people willing to sacrifice IQ for convenience, but autofocus evidently is not for lazy people willing to sacrifice accuracy for convenience).
I get the humor, but without a good viewfinder screen, manual focus at f/1.2 is pretty much impossible to do well or consistently.

Well said.

Bodies like 5DIII and 1Dx can nail auto focus on the 85 at f1.2 consistently.

Which is probably why the 5DIII design dispensed with the interchangeable screens.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2014, 06:43:05 PM »
Quote from: Andrew Davies Photography
link=topic=20815.msg394134#msg394134 date=1399391530
The Canon L is reputed to be slow focussing

It focuses as quickly as you can turn the ring. Unless you're too lazy and use autofocus :P
It is very slow and the focus by wire manual AF isn't great, either, but not so slow as to be unusable.  The trade off is exceptional image quality, and it is every bit as good as you've heard.  If you don't need/want to shoot below f/2.8, the 70-200 f/2.8 IS II makes a lot more sense from a practicality standpoint, but it's those f/1.2-2 shots that are amazing.

Sure, the quasi manual focus is a little strange. I was just offering worthless commentary about what I thought to be an odd disconnect (zoom lenses are for lazy people willing to sacrifice IQ for convenience, but autofocus evidently is not for lazy people willing to sacrifice accuracy for convenience).
I get the humor, but without a good viewfinder screen, manual focus at f/1.2 is pretty much impossible to do well or consistently.

Well said.

Bodies like 5DIII and 1Dx can nail auto focus on the 85 at f1.2 consistently.

Which is probably why the 5DIII design dispensed with the interchangeable screens.

Maybe...but it's also nice to be able to actually see the true DoF through the VF, for compositional reasons.
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sagittariansrock

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2014, 09:19:40 PM »
Quote from: Andrew Davies Photography
link=topic=20815.msg394134#msg394134 date=1399391530
The Canon L is reputed to be slow focussing



It focuses as quickly as you can turn the ring. Unless you're too lazy and use autofocus :P
It is very slow and the focus by wire manual AF isn't great, either, but not so slow as to be unusable.  The trade off is exceptional image quality, and it is every bit as good as you've heard.  If you don't need/want to shoot below f/2.8, the 70-200 f/2.8 IS II makes a lot more sense from a practicality standpoint, but it's those f/1.2-2 shots that are amazing.

Sure, the quasi manual focus is a little strange. I was just offering worthless commentary about what I thought to be an odd disconnect (zoom lenses are for lazy people willing to sacrifice IQ for convenience, but autofocus evidently is not for lazy people willing to sacrifice accuracy for convenience).
I get the humor, but without a good viewfinder screen, manual focus at f/1.2 is pretty much impossible to do well or consistently.

Well said.

Bodies like 5DIII and 1Dx can nail auto focus on the 85 at f1.2 consistently.

Which is probably why the 5DIII design dispensed with the interchangeable screens.

I think it was the new LCD overlay system. AFAIK, you can't put an interchangeable screen on the 7D either.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2014, 09:24:06 PM »
I think it was the new LCD overlay system. AFAIK, you can't put an interchangeable screen on the 7D either.

The 1D X has a transmissive LCD and interchangeable focus screens.
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sagittariansrock

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2014, 09:49:24 PM »
I think it was the new LCD overlay system. AFAIK, you can't put an interchangeable screen on the 7D either.

The 1D X has a transmissive LCD and interchangeable focus screens.

You went over this yourself and why 1D X has been able to overcome the issue (namely, RGB metering and larger mirror box). So, 1D X cannot be put in the same bracket :)
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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2014, 09:49:24 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2014, 11:17:01 PM »
I think it was the new LCD overlay system. AFAIK, you can't put an interchangeable screen on the 7D either.

The 1D X has a transmissive LCD and interchangeable focus screens.

You went over this yourself and why 1D X has been able to overcome the issue (namely, RGB metering and larger mirror box). So, 1D X cannot be put in the same bracket :)

Not that I recall. The RGB metering is why (I think) the 1D X can illuminate the AF points in AI Servo mode.  The metering sensor doesn't impose any hardware limits on installing a focus screen (although the converse is true - the focus screen does affect metering, firmware can compensate, but Canon has chosen not to correct for the Ec-S screen).  It's certainly possible to install a 3rd party screen in a 5DIII.

I don't see any technical reason the 5DIII couldn't have supported interchangeable (by the user in a supported manner) focus screens, should Canon have designed it that way. But they didn't.
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sagittariansrock

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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2014, 11:45:32 PM »
I think it was the new LCD overlay system. AFAIK, you can't put an interchangeable screen on the 7D either.

The 1D X has a transmissive LCD and interchangeable focus screens.

You went over this yourself and why 1D X has been able to overcome the issue (namely, RGB metering and larger mirror box). So, 1D X cannot be put in the same bracket :)

Not that I recall. The RGB metering is why (I think) the 1D X can illuminate the AF points in AI Servo mode.  The metering sensor doesn't impose any hardware limits on installing a focus screen (although the converse is true - the focus screen does affect metering, firmware can compensate, but Canon has chosen not to correct for the Ec-S screen).  It's certainly possible to install a 3rd party screen in a 5DIII.

I don't see any technical reason the 5DIII couldn't have supported interchangeable (by the user in a supported manner) focus screens, should Canon have designed it that way. But they didn't.

Of course, you are right.
I need more sleep.
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Re: Prime v Zoom Bokeh
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2014, 11:45:32 PM »