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Author Topic: New APS-C Camera in February?  (Read 15267 times)

akiskev

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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2011, 06:39:40 PM »
And if the sensor is a new one (more than likely), what would you prefer from my options above?

I'd prefer better dynamic range (even slightly better) and better signal to noise ratio at all isos!
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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2011, 06:39:40 PM »

Meh

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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2011, 07:01:09 PM »
@hjulenissen

See now there you go... I made a simple statement of fact that SNR goes up with signal level and that is too simplistic and you want to get into "image quality" which I specifically wanted to avoid because here we go.  I call a NR reduction algorithm "clever mathematics" but you want to say it's not "clever mathematics"... whether it's clever or not clever is a matter of opinion I guess but I think it's at least a little bit clever.  Can you give me that one?

You're obviously knowledgeable about this topic.   Me too.  Should we compare "credentials"?   :D   Honestly, I don't want to offend you or anyone else.  Someone was offended because I got smited... YES! Probably for starting this so I may deserve it :-[

Many of your points are technically sound.  Sure, counting photons in 4 bins and adding vs. counting in 1 bin is the same total number of photons.  But there will be less signal (fill factor <1) and more shot noise and read noise and therefore lower SNR and DR and you've agreed the accuracy of counting those photons is not as accurate if only as a technical matter.   If the SNR is high enough across the entire image then the whole argument is moot but if not you can go ahead and apply a NR algorithm to try and improve the image quality.

I do agree that the more data you have to work with the better NR algorithms will work.  The question would be where is the sweetspot above which the additional noise due to smaller pixels outpaces the improved application of the NR algorithm.

And why is the DR in the Nikon D7000 16MP sensor (Sony) so high?  If you look up the full-well capacity on sensorgen.info (ooops, that could be another debate) you will see it's very high... probably because they improved the fill factor (i.e. a larger photosite in each pixel, the size of the photosite matters).  They also got the noise down in that sensor.  Result = large DR of 14.   Now look at the Sony A77 (24MP) presumably using at least the same tech as the D7000 sensor and you'll see the full-well is much lower and therefore the DR is only 12.2 so the evidence suggests again that photosite size matters at least to the technical characteristics (again I'm trying to leave "image quality" alone).

Anyway, I apologize to everyone, their families, their friends, and the whole world for starting this.

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« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 07:07:11 PM by Meh »

dilbert

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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2011, 08:04:04 PM »
18mp? Canon has really limited themselves with the 1DX. Can they get away with putting more mp in a crop body than they have in their flagship? Sony has a cropped 24mp camera, so they can't compete with it without making the 1DX look as though it's lacking something.
If they aren't going to go over 18mp, then what does that mean for the 7D and 60D that are already at 18mp? They would have to have some additions that I can't even imagine to justify upgrading when the mp count stays the same.

No.

The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.

For example, if you've got a 1Ds3 or 5D2, to get a sharp picture out of a hand held zoom lens, you need at least 1/(2*x) where x is the zoom in mm to be safe but more is preferable. Some will say 3x or 4x, depending on the sensor. This is purely because the sensor resolution, with small pixels, means that it does not take a lot for the camera's motion to cause the light rays to wander over several pixels on the sensor. For those that need to hand hold cameras and get sharp shots, increased megapixels is closer to a curse than a bonus because they need faster shutter speeds.

Yes, image stabilisation (be it sensor or lens based) does offer some amount of mitigation but it's not a perfect solution.

When the purchasing manager for a news coroporation pops their head up and says the 1DX is useless because it only has 18MP and they'll use the 5D3 with 50MP for all of their journalists, then I'll listen. But I doubt that's going to happen.

unfocused

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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2011, 09:45:24 PM »
Quote
When the purchasing manager for a news corporation pops their head up and says the 1DX is useless because it only has 18MP and they'll use the 5D3 with 50MP for all of their journalists, then I'll listen. But I doubt that's going to happen.

I agree with your points but not sure your example is the best. Not to quibble too much, but news organizations are all about the reproduction and whether it is in a magazine, a newspaper or on a website, they are going to be throwing away megapixels and resolution even with an 18mp sensor.

But, despite my quibbling, I certainly agree with your major points. The resolution of the 1DX will likely have little or no bearing on future generations of the 5D, 7D or other DSLRs. In fact, I think Canon has thrown us such a curve with both the 1DX and its new Cinema line that it's pretty much impossible to guess what direction they will go next.

It's clear to me that while many say Canon WILL do this or that, or that they MUST offer something because of what a competitor offers, Canon is responding with a big: "Says Who?"

They are demonstrating the agility and innovative thinking that has taken them to the top of their industry. I'm just hoping the ride will be as exciting as it appears.
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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2011, 10:54:14 PM »

The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.


In a perfect world Canon would market the next 7D for pros and leave the 70D and below to the hobbyists and amateurs. If they did (again in a perfect world) we would see a cropped version of the 1Dx sensor in the next 7D. This is my wish and it would be awesome! I remember when the 7D came out people were raving how it was a mini-1D, why not keep the tradition alive?

Meh

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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2011, 11:20:39 PM »

The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.


In a perfect world Canon would market the next 7D for pros and leave the 70D and below to the hobbyists and amateurs. If they did (again in a perfect world) we would see a cropped version of the 1Dx sensor in the next 7D. This is my wish and it would be awesome! I remember when the 7D came out people were raving how it was a mini-1D, why not keep the tradition alive?

Not sure about the "marketing to pros" part but I think you will get your wish.  It wouldn't take much improvement for a 7D2 to be a mini-1DX.

EYEONE

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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2011, 09:05:02 AM »
That was the difference just from gapless microlenses.

The 50D had gapless microlenses too.
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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2011, 09:05:02 AM »

Meh

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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2011, 09:41:17 AM »
So for the rest of you who actually own a 7D now, what would actually make you buy a newer model, if the sensor is the same? (take into account you'd lose about 15% purchase-price selling old-body and buying new one). And if the sensor is a new one (more than likely), what would you prefer from my options above?

Assuming I could sell my 7D and buy a 7D2 for a net cost of only 15% (about C$225), I would upgrade just for the chance to take that new sweetness out of the box!   ;D   For me, the compelling option from your list would be same 18MP with any improvement in image quality whether that's a little better ISO performance, DR, whatever.

unfocused

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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2011, 10:29:11 AM »
So for the rest of you who actually own a 7D now, what would actually make you buy a newer model, if the sensor is the same? (take into account you'd lose about 15% purchase-price selling old-body and buying new one). And if the sensor is a new one (more than likely), what would you prefer from my options above?

Assuming I could sell my 7D and buy a 7D2 for a net cost of only 15% (about C$225), I would upgrade just for the chance to take that new sweetness out of the box!   ;D   For me, the compelling option from your list would be same 18MP with any improvement in image quality whether that's a little better ISO performance, DR, whatever.

That pretty much sums it up for me as well.

I don't have a problem with more megapixels, but it wouldn't make it so that I have to have a new model.

I like the infrared trigger, but hate that the onboard flash overheats and shuts down in the middle of shooting, making the trigger useless. I'd like that fixed.

I would like to see an improved autofocus system. People say the 7D is far more sophisticated than the 5D, but frankly it's not always intuitive or simple to use. Just because most focus issues are the result of "user error" doesn't mean they shouldn't try to engineer improvements that will reduce those errors.

Reduced noise, higher ISO and expanded dynamic range are the main criteria.

Actually, this all goes back to something I've said before: Will Canon go for an incremental upgrade and focus on attracting new buyers upgrading from Rebels or will they go for major improvements to entice existing 7D owners to buy the new model?

I really think (and hope) it will be the latter. I think they learned with the 50D that incremental upgrades are risky and I suspect they have figured out that one customer in the hand (existing 7D owners) is better than two customers in the bush (Rebel owners who might or might not upgrade). A major upgrade will attract both markets, but minor changes will have most 7D owners waiting for the Mark III.

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jouster

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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2011, 11:32:59 AM »

The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.


In a perfect world Canon would market the next 7D for pros and leave the 70D and below to the hobbyists and amateurs. If they did (again in a perfect world) we would see a cropped version of the 1Dx sensor in the next 7D. This is my wish and it would be awesome! I remember when the 7D came out people were raving how it was a mini-1D, why not keep the tradition alive?

Why would that represent a perfect world? Why would a cropped version of the 1DX sensor necessitate marketing only to pros?

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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2011, 12:14:09 PM »

The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.


In a perfect world Canon would market the next 7D for pros and leave the 70D and below to the hobbyists and amateurs. If they did (again in a perfect world) we would see a cropped version of the 1Dx sensor in the next 7D. This is my wish and it would be awesome! I remember when the 7D came out people were raving how it was a mini-1D, why not keep the tradition alive?

Why would that represent a perfect world? Why would a cropped version of the 1DX sensor necessitate marketing only to pros?

If Canon make a cropped version (APS-C) of the 1DX sensor, it will only have 6.84 MP. do you think either the 'pro" or  Amateur will buy it???
I would like to see canon apply the technology of 1DX sensor on the existing 18MP APS_C and also give us the "low Light" technique ( addition the explosure from 4 adjscent pixels )from the S95 and ends up with a 4.5MP picture. Then we will have the best of both world.

Meh

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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2011, 01:14:54 PM »

The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.


In a perfect world Canon would market the next 7D for pros and leave the 70D and below to the hobbyists and amateurs. If they did (again in a perfect world) we would see a cropped version of the 1Dx sensor in the next 7D. This is my wish and it would be awesome! I remember when the 7D came out people were raving how it was a mini-1D, why not keep the tradition alive?

Why would that represent a perfect world? Why would a cropped version of the 1DX sensor necessitate marketing only to pros?

If Canon make a cropped version (APS-C) of the 1DX sensor, it will only have 6.84 MP. do you think either the 'pro" or  Amateur will buy it???
I would like to see canon apply the technology of 1DX sensor on the existing 18MP APS_C and also give us the "low Light" technique ( addition the explosure from 4 adjscent pixels )from the S95 and ends up with a 4.5MP picture. Then we will have the best of both world.

:) I took psycho5's comment to mean the latter... apply the latest and greatest sensor tech for a new ~18MP APS-C sensor and I think that could be what we'll see.  Totally agree that an APS-C crop of the 1DX sensor with 6.9MP is a non-starter.

wickidwombat

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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2011, 09:46:34 PM »

The 1DX was designed and built for professional photographers and they have very specific needs that don't necessarily have anything to do with hobbyists, amateurs, advanced amateurs or just the general public.


In a perfect world Canon would market the next 7D for pros and leave the 70D and below to the hobbyists and amateurs. If they did (again in a perfect world) we would see a cropped version of the 1Dx sensor in the next 7D. This is my wish and it would be awesome! I remember when the 7D came out people were raving how it was a mini-1D, why not keep the tradition alive?

Why would that represent a perfect world? Why would a cropped version of the 1DX sensor necessitate marketing only to pros?

If Canon make a cropped version (APS-C) of the 1DX sensor, it will only have 6.84 MP. do you think either the 'pro" or  Amateur will buy it???
I would like to see canon apply the technology of 1DX sensor on the existing 18MP APS_C and also give us the "low Light" technique ( addition the explosure from 4 adjscent pixels )from the S95 and ends up with a 4.5MP picture. Then we will have the best of both world.

:) I took psycho5's comment to mean the latter... apply the latest and greatest sensor tech for a new ~18MP APS-C sensor and I think that could be what we'll see.  Totally agree that an APS-C crop of the 1DX sensor with 6.9MP is a non-starter.

what if it functioned like the fuji EXR tech where you can choose low MP and higher DR and cleaner ISO or more MP and use lower iso? then you get your cake and eat it too. I think something like this in a new 7D they would struggle to keep up with demand, from amature and pro's alike.
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Re: New APS-C Camera in February?
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2011, 09:46:34 PM »