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Author Topic: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?  (Read 8818 times)

gmrza

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 09:43:33 PM »
The title of the thread caught my eye, but the content is a yawn. My NEX7 is on flood-backorder, so I have no comment on the sensor yet, but I am confident it'll blow the G12 into the weeds, and that is all I'm expecting and asking of it.

Re the comment " Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?" I think it'll be interesting to see if all those prosumers who've endlessly brayed for low MP's have managed to get Canon to clip its own feathers. The other pros I've spoken to, like me, are passing on the new EOS. We're all waiting to see what the 36mp Nikon is going to deliver, because those of us who can and do light our pictures want high MP's, and maximum quality at 100-1000 ISO. Much above that doesn't really matter to us, and we're all stunned that Canon has thrown us into Nikon arms, especially after showcasing a 100mp sensor a year or so ago.

Canon are still holding their cards close to their chest as far as the 5D3 goes.  I have my doubts that they can afford not to track what Nikon is rumoured to be doing with the D800.  That could however still leave you in the cold as far as AF and environmental sealing go...
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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 09:43:33 PM »

AG

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2011, 11:22:14 PM »
The title of the thread caught my eye, but the content is a yawn. My NEX7 is on flood-backorder, so I have no comment on the sensor yet, but I am confident it'll blow the G12 into the weeds, and that is all I'm expecting and asking of it.

Re the comment " Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?" I think it'll be interesting to see if all those prosumers who've endlessly brayed for low MP's have managed to get Canon to clip its own feathers. The other pros I've spoken to, like me, are passing on the new EOS. We're all waiting to see what the 36mp Nikon is going to deliver, because those of us who can and do light our pictures want high MP's, and maximum quality at 100-1000 ISO. Much above that doesn't really matter to us, and we're all stunned that Canon has thrown us into Nikon arms, especially after showcasing a 100mp sensor a year or so ago.

I thought you said a few weeks ago after the 1D-x announcement, that you were leaving these forums?

Either way, you keep saying about high MP this and high MP that all the time, the problem being technically speaking high MP means bugger all.

Hell intel released a concept 6ghz processor back in the P4 days, yet today most commercial cpus sit at 2-2.6ghz range and servers (or pro chips) don't break 4ghz.
why??
because they don't need too, they used slower cores but more of them.
in photography terms they reduce the MPs but make them more efficient.

Just because your camera has 36MP doesn't mean it looks and cleaner than a crappy 12MP point and shoot.
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dilbert

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2011, 12:13:29 AM »
Canon are still holding their cards close to their chest as far as the 5D3 goes.  I have my doubts that they can afford not to track what Nikon is rumoured to be doing with the D800.  That could however still leave you in the cold as far as AF and environmental sealing go...

I think that if they only have their attention on Nikon then Sony could surprise both of them.

In some ways, it reminds me of many instances where you've got two foes constantly wary of each other in trying to win a prize and that in concentrating on each other, they allow another to slip through their guard and steal the prize.

dilbert

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2011, 12:19:39 AM »
Re the comment " Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?" I think it'll be interesting to see if all those prosumers who've endlessly brayed for low MP's have managed to get Canon to clip its own feathers. The other pros I've spoken to, like me, are passing on the new EOS. We're all waiting to see what the 36mp Nikon is going to deliver, because those of us who can and do light our pictures want high MP's, and maximum quality at 100-1000 ISO. Much above that doesn't really matter to us, and we're all stunned that Canon has thrown us into Nikon arms, especially after showcasing a 100mp sensor a year or so ago.

I'm in the same boat. So long as ISO 100-400 have at least their current performance, ISO 800 to ISO 128379817 are of no interest.

dilbert

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2011, 12:34:16 AM »
Seriously?

What is with people and huge MPs?

i would prefer to have a lower MP camera that shoots great low light and is crystal clear when at these said low iso settings instead of a high MP camera that has lousy iso.

Mind you this is probably because I'm one of them photographers that hates using a flash.  ;D

For everyone that says you need fewer megapixels to get better IQ, riddle me this...

Why does the Nikon D3X (a full frame sensor), have more megapixels than the 5D Mark 2 *AND* do better at low light photography? Would everyone be willing to say "no, the 5DMark2's sensor with only 21MP is perfect, we don't need the 3 extra megapixels and the improved IQ of the D3X"? (If that were possible.)

Or that the 16MP IDs2 sensor should never have been replaced by the 21MP sensor in the 1Ds3?

The solution to the IQ problem is not simply "fewer MP = higher IQ" and quite clearly there are still gains to be had. Remember that when the folks at DxO labs crunched the numbers, the sensor in the S95 was performing better (for its characteristics) than the D3X, yet it is far smaller.

I mean seriously, some of the excuses for avoiding high megapixel counts on Canon cameras sound about as well thought out as those of Nikon users defending Nikon only having crop'd sensors before Nikon's first FF camera.

dilbert

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2011, 12:38:41 AM »
Seriously I dont get the huge hard on people have for max megapixels.

The difference between 21 MP  and 18 is almost nothing have a look at this review


But in this case, it is now the Sony A77 with 24MP vs the 7D with 18MP. The A77 has 33% more pixels.

The difference between the A77 and the 7D is twice that of the 5D2 to the 7D.

dilbert

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2011, 12:44:59 AM »
Tempting but people who get excited about this camera in my estimations are pure number people and not as concerned about quality... Crap in, and crap out... I need my photos to look stunning in print, and if i cant count on it in print, what else is there for me to get excited about?

The principal behind the Luminous Landscape website seems to be fairly excited about the A77 and that's someone that owns and uses an 80MP MF back. Are you saying that someone who shoots professionally with an 80MP MF back is not concerned about IQ?

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2011, 12:44:59 AM »

dilbert

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2011, 01:02:25 AM »
Save the "pixel quality" and "sensor noise" arguments for the summer BBQ parties.
those two points are two of many reasons that separates the 5d from A77.

Pixel Quality is a huge factor in picture quality.
Ignore sensor noise; are you seriously saying you don't care about noise?

If I cared that much about noise then I would not even consider buying a 5D Mark 2 because of its horrible banding problems (which I've seen first hand.)

Meh

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2011, 01:04:45 AM »
Why does the Nikon D3X (a full frame sensor), have more megapixels than the 5D Mark 2 *AND* do better at low light photography?

Ok but then why does the Nikon D3s get better low-light scores than the D3x (going by DxOmark scores for whatever that one test is worth)?  Same company, same sensor technology, only 1 year apart.  D3s has much larger pixels and has better low-light performance.  I don't know Nikon so don't beat me up if there are performance differences I'm not accounting for...  just using this as a counter-example to your point.

But you're right... it's not just about pixel pitch.  Photosite size matters.  Read noise matters.  The A/D converter has an affect.  Etc.

Comparing sensors from different companies, from different time periods, and different type (CCD vs. CMOS) is not straight-forward.  There are relative strengths and weaknesses of each sensor type, technology changes/improves over time, etc.

AG

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2011, 01:05:23 AM »
Seriously?

What is with people and huge MPs?

i would prefer to have a lower MP camera that shoots great low light and is crystal clear when at these said low iso settings instead of a high MP camera that has lousy iso.

Mind you this is probably because I'm one of them photographers that hates using a flash.  ;D

For everyone that says you need fewer megapixels to get better IQ, riddle me this...

Why does the Nikon D3X (a full frame sensor), have more megapixels than the 5D Mark 2 *AND* do better at low light photography? Would everyone be willing to say "no, the 5DMark2's sensor with only 21MP is perfect, we don't need the 3 extra megapixels and the improved IQ of the D3X"? (If that were possible.)

Or that the 16MP IDs2 sensor should never have been replaced by the 21MP sensor in the 1Ds3?

The solution to the IQ problem is not simply "fewer MP = higher IQ" and quite clearly there are still gains to be had. Remember that when the folks at DxO labs crunched the numbers, the sensor in the S95 was performing better (for its characteristics) than the D3X, yet it is far smaller.

I mean seriously, some of the excuses for avoiding high megapixel counts on Canon cameras sound about as well thought out as those of Nikon users defending Nikon only having crop'd sensors before Nikon's first FF camera.

I would say that instead of comparing the MP count of the 2 cameras why not look at the algorithm that they both use. Obviously the low light one that the Nikon used was better than the one that Canon used.
If that wasn't the case then how can a camera such as the 1D-X (from test shots seen on net) beat the 5D2 if that camera only has 18MP compared to the 21 of the 5D2?

A sensor is just a capture source. once the photons hit the sensor its up the processors onboard to do the calculation and convert the information gathered into something of worth. If you had a good enough algorithm you could technically take a 10MP camera and have that process pictures at 12500 ISO crystal clear.
...well other than the pixel density problem, the micro lens issues and costs.

A simple reason to justify why people release super high MP cameras is MONEY!

Bigger is ALWAYS better, or so we are raised to believe.
You buy a 68CM CRT TV
I have to then buy a 32" LCD TV
So in return you go out and buy the 56" Plasma TV
Not to be out done i buy a projector.
You buy the 720P version
I then retaliate by buying the 1080p version... and so on.

At some point you have to look at what you are doing ad realise that in the size of your lounge room the 32" LCD TV was more than perfect size wise, so you eventually down size but buy the 3D,1080p, 200hz model (or whatever the best you can buy nowadays).

The same thing is happening with cameras finally.

At what point do the manufacturers realise that they don't need to hit massive MP figures if they are able to cover the industry standard image size, but at much better low light and super fast frames per second (remember once the FPS passes 24 your basically shooting video anyhow), and in an easier to produce (read cheaper) format without alienating the old pros that still haven't quite gotten over the fact that film is dead and for years have been investing in expensive equipment only to have Canon/Nikon etc make it available to mere amateurs.

It doesn't cost much to call yourself a photographer nowadays. The proof is in the work you produce.
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x-vision

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2011, 01:23:39 AM »
I mean why would you buy a 5D Mark2 that has only 21MP for over $2000 when the A77 can be had for almost half price. Save the "pixel quality" and "sensor noise" arguments for the summer BBQ parties.

I am very thankful to Sony for the the A77/Nex-7.
They pretty much ended the megapixel war - in the sense that it's no longer a good business model to charge a premium for megapixels.
 
Thus, Canon can focus on image quality, not megapixels.

Megapixels are cheap but good image quality would still command a premium. 
The A77/Nex-7 only reinforce the idea that megapixels are for consumers (and therefore are cheap 8) ).

briansquibb

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2011, 02:40:07 AM »
21MP is enough for most

So - increase the DR of those MP so that iso1600 has 95%DR of iso100
     - make iso6400 nearly noise free
     - increase the fps to about 8 or so

Sell it as the 5DIII and Canon will be onto a winner

wockawocka

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2011, 04:25:16 AM »
I wouldn't worry as next year you'll see the 5DC for video and the 5DS for studio.

Just be patient. Enjoy what you have.
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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2011, 04:25:16 AM »

AG

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2011, 04:29:12 AM »
I wouldn't worry as next year you'll see the 5DC for video and the 5DS for studio.

Just be patient. Enjoy what you have.

Think you will find it will end up being the 5D3 (specced up 5D2) and the 1D-C (The Cinema Prototype from C300 release)

But other than that i agree  ;D
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wockawocka

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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2011, 05:24:03 AM »
I also still think the AF will be crippled as studio stuff doesn't need such 'advanced' AF
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Re: Is anyone awake in Canon HQ?
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2011, 05:24:03 AM »