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Author Topic: DXO uh-oh?  (Read 70565 times)

scyrene

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #210 on: August 06, 2014, 12:45:06 PM »
And for a small but vocal group of people, high ISO is all they care about.

Nope, nobody says that, and you know it.

High ISO gets cited purely as an example of something other than low ISO DR that also matters - because it's obvious that some people simply can't comprehend the notion that low ISO DR isn't the be-all-and-end-all.

Mostly those of us who value higher ISO are after shots we literally can't get at present. Usable ISO 3200-5000 means I can shoot small birds in flight at 1000mm f/10 in cloudy conditions (some ask why bother, but that's a separate point). Usable ISO 25600 would allow even greater flexibility for very fast exposures in poor light - whether it's birds or people at parties. People clamouring for low ISO improvements are after a much subtler thing, I would say. They want slightly better/easier to process shots of landscapes or studio subjects.

Both are valid, but for some reason the low-ISO proponents often reject that people wanting cleaner high ISO have a point (as you say).
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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #210 on: August 06, 2014, 12:45:06 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #211 on: August 06, 2014, 01:38:02 PM »
That would have really lit a fire under canon.

And again: what the D810 does that's demonstrably better than what can be achieved by Canon bodies is of importance to only a tiny subset of the potential userbase out there.

When the D800 came out, the usual suspects predicted doom for the 5DIII and for Canon in general, commented that with 36 MP Nikon had beaten Canon at their own MP game, that Canon was behind and needed to catch up, etc. 

Here we are, a couple of years later, and has Canon released a 5DIII replacement to better compete with the D800?   Nope, the 5DIII is doing fine.  Instead, Nikon felt the need to release the D810 in an effort to better compete with the 5DIII by addressing some of the D800's shortcomings.

Of course, the same crew of usual suspects is now going on about how the D810 will 'light a fire under Canon' or whatever.   

It's amusing, but also a little sad, that some people can't see beyond their own limited needs, particularly when those needs are shared with only a small minority.  Fortunately for Canon, they apparently can see the big picture, which is one reason they've long been and remain the market leader.
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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #212 on: August 06, 2014, 04:01:38 PM »
That would have really lit a fire under canon.

And again: what the D810 does that's demonstrably better than what can be achieved by Canon bodies is of importance to only a tiny subset of the potential userbase out there.

It wouldn't have lit (and didn't light) a fire under Canon, because most users don't care about what is "superior" about the D810, and don't use their cameras in such a way as to make that "superiority" remotely relevant to them.

The D810 is arguably less of a one-trick pony than the D800, but it's still nothing like as versatile and useful for photography across the genres as the 5D Mk III.
Pretty much. The mk3 was the D700 replacement everyone wanted from nikon and the D810 addressed alot of those issues. Alas, Alittle too late but It would have given a solid reason for some nikon users not to jump to the MK3's practicality. (Which quite a few did both ways.)

jrista

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #213 on: August 07, 2014, 01:17:06 AM »
That would have really lit a fire under canon.

And again: what the D810 does that's demonstrably better than what can be achieved by Canon bodies is of importance to only a tiny subset of the potential userbase out there.

When the D800 came out, the usual suspects predicted doom for the 5DIII and for Canon in general, commented that with 36 MP Nikon had beaten Canon at their own MP game, that Canon was behind and needed to catch up, etc. 

Here we are, a couple of years later, and has Canon released a 5DIII replacement to better compete with the D800?   Nope, the 5DIII is doing fine.  Instead, Nikon felt the need to release the D810 in an effort to better compete with the 5DIII by addressing some of the D800's shortcomings.

Of course, the same crew of usual suspects is now going on about how the D810 will 'light a fire under Canon' or whatever.   

It's amusing, but also a little sad, that some people can't see beyond their own limited needs, particularly when those needs are shared with only a small minority.  Fortunately for Canon, they apparently can see the big picture, which is one reason they've long been and remain the market leader.

Thing is, the D810 is actually a real competitor for the 5D III, as far as "general purpose DSLR" goes. It lacks in the ergo department, and is missing that 1 FPS, dunno about the AF system, although that was always pretty decent, but it is a LOT closer, and STILL has the better sensor IQ.

I agree, the D800 wasn't really a competitor for the 5D III...but the D810 is. I don't expect Canon to rush a 5D IV to market, simply isn't their style. I do expect the 7D II to have a better sensor with better low ISO IQ. It's needed and necessary for Canon to remain competitive. As I've said before...it doesn't really matter if it *really* matters or not. Perceptions have changed. It's pretty difficult to go to any photography forum these days, and not hear about DR. Everyone talks about it. I know I want more of it, and I've been patiently awaiting Canon to do something about it...but they have lost momentum.

The digital photography world is marching forward...and Canon is standing still. I like Canon, I like to defend them, I really don't like how DXO does things, and I don't think the DR issue is as all important as so many people make it out to be. I'll always be involved in those debates. But...the simple, honest truth is...I want my high res, high DR, full frame landscape DSLR...and I dont want to have to buy a Nikon to get it. I want to see the 7D II get a major sensor IQ boost...because if I don't...I'll lose faith in Canon to address their customer's primary concerns.

As much as you and I may be Canon fans, I think we still have to be realistic. You can't ignore the competition the D810 brings to the table. It's received meaningful improvements. Sadly, I agree with you. I don't think the D810 will light a fire under Canon...and quite honestly, I think that's sad. Canon's sensor IQ is rapidly becoming the worst in the industry, when it used to be the best. Even the medium format cameras, which used to have read noise as bad as Canons, are now using 50mp medium format Exmors... Half or more of Canon's DSLR and mirrorless competitors are using Exmors. Canon can only ride the wave for so long...

candyman

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #214 on: August 07, 2014, 01:08:18 PM »
That would have really lit a fire under canon.

And again: what the D810 does that's demonstrably better than what can be achieved by Canon bodies is of importance to only a tiny subset of the potential userbase out there.

When the D800 came out, the usual suspects predicted doom for the 5DIII and for Canon in general, commented that with 36 MP Nikon had beaten Canon at their own MP game, that Canon was behind and needed to catch up, etc. 

Here we are, a couple of years later, and has Canon released a 5DIII replacement to better compete with the D800?   Nope, the 5DIII is doing fine.  Instead, Nikon felt the need to release the D810 in an effort to better compete with the 5DIII by addressing some of the D800's shortcomings.

Of course, the same crew of usual suspects is now going on about how the D810 will 'light a fire under Canon' or whatever.   

It's amusing, but also a little sad, that some people can't see beyond their own limited needs, particularly when those needs are shared with only a small minority.  Fortunately for Canon, they apparently can see the big picture, which is one reason they've long been and remain the market leader.


Почему вы ложью, видео точно показывает, почему датчик от Sony лучше, чем Canon.
И почему эти продажи передать все это время? Это не имеет ничего общего с измерениями ДХО, результаты и видео я имею в виду.
Здесь, в России мы удивляемся, почему Canon постоянно отстают других производителей, когда речь заходит качеству изображения


Yuriy, no offense but can you translate your native language in Google translation and then post it? Thanks!
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neuroanatomist

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #215 on: August 07, 2014, 03:48:07 PM »
Почему вы ложью, видео точно показывает, почему датчик от Sony лучше, чем Canon.
И почему эти продажи передать все это время? Это не имеет ничего общего с измерениями ДХО, результаты и видео я имею в виду.
Yuriy, no offense but can you translate your native language in Google translation and then post it? Thanks!

I believe "Yuriy's" native language is actually Swedish.  For example, he might say:

Jag gillar att ta dåligt exponerade bilder av grillar, bodar och markiser.
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candyman

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #216 on: August 07, 2014, 04:05:08 PM »
Почему вы ложью, видео точно показывает, почему датчик от Sony лучше, чем Canon.
И почему эти продажи передать все это время? Это не имеет ничего общего с измерениями ДХО, результаты и видео я имею в виду.
Yuriy, no offense but can you translate your native language in Google translation and then post it? Thanks!

I believe "Yuriy's" native language is actually Swedish.  For example, he might say:

Jag gillar att ta dåligt exponerade bilder av grillar, bodar och markiser.
   ;D
The more you look, the more you see ─ Robert M. Pirsig


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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #216 on: August 07, 2014, 04:05:08 PM »

mackguyver

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #217 on: August 07, 2014, 04:36:46 PM »
Почему вы ложью, видео точно показывает, почему датчик от Sony лучше, чем Canon.
И почему эти продажи передать все это время? Это не имеет ничего общего с измерениями ДХО, результаты и видео я имею в виду.
Yuriy, no offense but can you translate your native language in Google translation and then post it? Thanks!

I believe "Yuriy's" native language is actually Swedish.  For example, he might say:

Jag gillar att ta dåligt exponerade bilder av grillar, bodar och markiser.
He must be from that Russian side of Stockholm or something as my Swedish friends don't use the Cyrillic alphabet...

I'd respond with the following (forgive the Google translation):
Дорогой друг, это форум Canon и все мы говорим на одном языке, что практически не что DxO не следует доверять и DR может быть хорошо на бумаге, но это не делает все другие камеры устарели. Кроме того, сколько людей на самом деле стрелять в темноте?
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Orangutan

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #218 on: August 07, 2014, 05:06:41 PM »
Почему вы ложью, видео точно показывает, почему датчик от Sony лучше, чем Canon.
И почему эти продажи передать все это время? Это не имеет ничего общего с измерениями ДХО, результаты и видео я имею в виду.
Yuriy, no offense but can you translate your native language in Google translation and then post it? Thanks!

I believe "Yuriy's" native language is actually Swedish.  For example, he might say:

Jag gillar att ta dåligt exponerade bilder av grillar, bodar och markiser.
He must be from that Russian side of Stockholm or something as my Swedish friends don't use the Cyrillic alphabet...

I'd respond with the following (forgive the Google translation):
Дорогой друг, это форум Canon и все мы говорим на одном языке, что практически не что DxO не следует доверять и DR может быть хорошо на бумаге, но это не делает все другие камеры устарели. Кроме того, сколько людей на самом деле стрелять в темноте?

If so, props to Миша for the creativity.

sarangiman

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #219 on: August 07, 2014, 05:28:09 PM »

Thing is, the D810 is actually a real competitor for the 5D III, as far as "general purpose DSLR" goes. It lacks in the ergo department, and is missing that 1 FPS, dunno about the AF system, although that was always pretty decent, but it is a LOT closer, and STILL has the better sensor IQ.

First of all, 'lacks in the ergo department' is very, very subjective. Yes the grip on the D810 is still too small & not fat enough for my hands, and the D-pad is not as good as Canon's joystick. OTOH, there are many more customization options on the D810 than on my 5DIII. So there's a greater chance I can configure the D810 to suit my needs over the Canon. And let's not forget the complete lack of EC in M mode w/ Auto ISO when it comes to Canon. The 1Dx's implementation is so nonsensical it's almost lacking - you either have to use the LCD screen to use EC in M mode, or dedicate the Set button to activate EC in M mode. The latter removes one of the largest advantages of Canon ergonomics in my opinion - the ability to press 'Set' even in shooting mode to instantly check focus on your last shot. Why you can't adjust EC using the dedicated EC button in M mode baffles me to no end...

Also - if you consider this an element of 'ergonomics' - programmable Auto ISO itself enough reason to choose Nikon. When I'm switching primes during a wedding shoot, I don't want to have to remember to go in there and change my minimum shutter speed (and Canon's choice of 'minimum shutter speed' is often unsuitable). With Nikon, I simply choose slower to faster in 5 increments based on if I'm shooting static vs. moving subjects. Game-changing for the types of photography I do.

Quote
I agree, the D800 wasn't really a competitor for the 5D III...but the D810 is.

Now this I'd love some clarification on. Most people are pointing out how the D810 is not much of an improvement over the D800. DxO's own scores on image quality show this. So what suddenly makes the D810 a competitor to the 5DIII, but not the D800? The half-a-stop extra DR? The electronic 1st curtain [EFC] that can only be activated with mirror-up? Just curious exactly why you feel this way.

If I were to venture a guess - I'd say the EFC? I do wish, though, that Nikon had an option to implement EFC in all shooting modes with a short delay to allow mirror vibrations to dampen out. EFC only working in Mup mode is a bit silly - especially in Live View.

My bigger point here is that the D800 was just as big a contender. Not only b/c of its superior image quality, but also b/c of Programmable Auto ISO, Exposure Compensation in M mode, spot-metering linked to AF point, and 3D AF tracking. The latter allows one to simply use the center AF point to initiate focus on a desired subject, and allow the camera to track that subject across the frame, as well as along the Z/depth-axis. This (1) obviates the need to select the proper focus point, which is time consuming, and (2) tracks moving subjects like running brides across the frame. With every Canon save for the 1Dx, I have to manually select the AF point when I can't focus and recompose (24/1.4 and 35/1.4). Try doing that with a 4 month old baby that constantly moves around. For this particular scenario, I believe my focus hit rate went from something like 10% to 80% simply going from a 5DIII to the D810.

Canon's complete lack of a separate sensor for AF tracking in all but the 1Dx is rather egregious. And I, personally, find it difficult to use a 1Dx b/c of its weight/size that, with serious glass, puts it north of what I'm willing to tolerate. The 5D III uses some tricks to track subjects to make up for its lack of dedicated hardware - e.g. I believe it cross-references data from AF sensors to check if a subject at some depth moved from one focus point to another, and I think it also uses some info from its 63 zone metering system to help track subjects. But none of these approaches come near the (lateral, X-Y plane) tracking accuracy of a dedicated 91,000 pixel meter, or the entire imaging sensor itself in Sony SLT designs.

It's funny, if anything, I think the Nikon system is somewhat less desirable now than it was a few years ago when the D800 was released. Why? B/c now Canon has some very, very fine lenses for it's system. The 16-35 f/4L IS & the 24-70 f/4L IS are great lenses for landscape photographers.

dgatwood

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #220 on: August 08, 2014, 02:13:38 PM »
First of all, 'lacks in the ergo department' is very, very subjective. Yes the grip on the D810 is still too small & not fat enough for my hands, and the D-pad is not as good as Canon's joystick.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I actually prefer D-pads to joysticks.  They don't stick out from the camera as far, and as such, are less prone to breakage.  I mean, it's significant that the first hit in a search for "5D mark III joystick" on Google was not a description of the product, but rather a discussion thread entitled "5DIII Joystick came off".  Out of the entire first page on Google, all but two links were threads and blog articles talking about various failure modes.  That doesn't sound like good design to me.  A good D-pad can give you the same basic functionality without the fragility.  But I'd rather have eye tracking than either one.

sarangiman

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #221 on: August 08, 2014, 09:39:24 PM »
The reason I prefer the joystick is b/c the D-pad requires too much travel for my thumb to change focus point. But neither the D-pad nor joystick are ideal. I can think of a much better way to select AF points quickly... can you? :)

But given how spectacular the D810 is at tracking the subject across the frame in '3D' tracking mode, the joystick vs. D-pad debate is less of a concern for me as I'm jumping ship. However, I'd still prefer a faster way to select AF point for those situations where AF tracking fails - e.g. in very low light, low contrast subjects, heavily backlit subjects, etc.

Interesting about the joystick breaking. Ultimately I don't care - that can be fixed so I'd prefer function over longevity. But that's just me.

dgatwood

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #222 on: August 09, 2014, 01:35:42 AM »
The reason I prefer the joystick is b/c the D-pad requires too much travel for my thumb to change focus point. But neither the D-pad nor joystick are ideal. I can think of a much better way to select AF points quickly... can you? :)

Indeed, eye can.  :D

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #222 on: August 09, 2014, 01:35:42 AM »

jrista

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #223 on: August 09, 2014, 03:16:01 AM »
The reason I prefer the joystick is b/c the D-pad requires too much travel for my thumb to change focus point. But neither the D-pad nor joystick are ideal. I can think of a much better way to select AF points quickly... can you? :)

But given how spectacular the D810 is at tracking the subject across the frame in '3D' tracking mode, the joystick vs. D-pad debate is less of a concern for me as I'm jumping ship. However, I'd still prefer a faster way to select AF point for those situations where AF tracking fails - e.g. in very low light, low contrast subjects, heavily backlit subjects, etc.

Interesting about the joystick breaking. Ultimately I don't care - that can be fixed so I'd prefer function over longevity. But that's just me.

I really wonder why Canon doesn't bring eye control back. It certainly seems like fans of the EOS 3 ECF really want it. It would be interesting to have whatever it is your looking at in the VF be focused...that would just rock. I am guessing the system was expensive, at least that's what I'd read in the past...in a film camera, it was probably one of the most expensive things. However in a DSLR, it's just one more expensive thing to add to the mix...maybe it pushes cost over the edge.

zim

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #224 on: August 09, 2014, 04:28:58 AM »
7Dii - same sensor/IQ as 70D but with eye control af, slight up in fps all else as 7D

How would that be received?

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Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #224 on: August 09, 2014, 04:28:58 AM »