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Author Topic: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?  (Read 12851 times)

poias

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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2011, 10:58:35 AM »
I think some here are missing my point. I did not say Nikon was bad or low MP is bad. It is just that 12mpx and still competing. Come on!

Since Nikon is competing with these 12mpx, Canon hosed us by going back on resolution in the flagship 1Dx. Sounds like resolution is not what matters anymore to Canon. Ironically, Nikon is rumored to have 36mpx and moving much ahead of Canon in the resolution department.

I may not print big, but high resolution gives me option to crop. It is just another tool.

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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2011, 10:58:35 AM »

EYEONE

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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2011, 11:31:15 AM »
I can speak personally that the noise on the 7D is pretty hideous.
Then you need to learn how to use it and convert/process the files properly - I have no problem at all with 4000 ISO and way higher, with mine - at the image level it easily compares with the D700/D3 :

3200 ISO




6400 ISO:






12800 ISO:


And feel free to check the Exif - these are almost all low light images...

(The forum software has reduced the size of the images - look at them full size. And yes, they look great much bigger and printed).

But as usual, it's easier to blame the gear than to actually work out how to get the best from it, isn't it?

Hey man, don't insult my photography that you've never seen. Did I blame the 7D for troubles in my work? Did I talk about how much the 7D ruins my photography? Nope. So basically you need to stop telling me that I'm converting my RAWS incorrectly when you have no earthly idea how I do my work. And you need you to not insult my photographic skill as good or bad as it may be.

I actually didn't even say the noise was unacceptably high. I typically defend the 7D when people complain about the noise. I was simply speaking to the look of the noise. I'll shoot at 4000 and 6400 if I have to and process them quite nicely. But I don't like the pattern of the noise.

Thanks for your useful suggestions anyway...  ::)
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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2011, 12:21:11 PM »
Have you ever shot a D3S? it is 12mp  :P

It is no joke that it's called the LOW LIGHT KING !  8)

I have and believe me when i say this, if D3S were in $2k price range, i would BUY IT in a Second !  ;D

Nikon has these teeny 12mp cameras and are still in business with people talking about their upcoming lineup.

Now Canon doesn't feel like they have to better the specs and come with 18mp 1Dx and similarly sized 5D3?

Canon has always been about pleasing its customers with better specs, but if Nikon does not push them, they will remain content and cruise, not innovate. This is frustrating.

neuroanatomist

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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2011, 01:26:46 PM »
judging from the reflection off the bottle, these image you have are kind of well lighted, my understand is that shooting high iso in well lighted situation will perform better than same iso in really low light situation, anybody confirm that.

That's absolutely true.  Most internet/review ISO noise tests are carried out in an expeident manner - a scene with bright, constant lighting, aperture held constant (so DoF doesn't change), and ISO increased with corresponding decreases in shutter speed to keep exposure the same.  So, the highest ISOs are shot with the shortest shutter speed - a typical range might be from 1/30 s at ISO 100 to 1/8000 s at ISO 25600.  Those settings are not often real-world relevant - usually, if you need to use ISO 6400, you don't have anywhere near enough light for a 1/2000 s shutter speed (exceptions exist such as needing to stop action in motorsports).  Those short shutter speeds minimize the effect of read noise, which is a major contributor to total noise when light is limiting.  So, ISO 6400 and 1/2000 s is going to look a lot better than ISO 6400 at 1/60 s.
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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2011, 01:53:34 PM »
I would have bought a D3S for the low light performance, but switching all my lenses makes the cost of a body look like chump change.

Tha main advantage of high mp is the ability to crop, and I do a lot of cropping of my 5D MK II images with good results.  If you fill the frame of a 12 mp camera the image will be excellent, since 6mp is about all you need for most prints.

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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2011, 02:22:35 PM »
judging from the reflection off the bottle, these image you have are kind of well lighted, my understand is that shooting high iso in well lighted situation will perform better than same iso in really low light situation, anybody confirm that.

That's absolutely true.  Most internet/review ISO noise tests are carried out in an expeident manner - a scene with bright, constant lighting, aperture held constant (so DoF doesn't change), and ISO increased with corresponding decreases in shutter speed to keep exposure the same.  So, the highest ISOs are shot with the shortest shutter speed - a typical range might be from 1/30 s at ISO 100 to 1/8000 s at ISO 25600.  Those settings are not often real-world relevant - usually, if you need to use ISO 6400, you don't have anywhere near enough light for a 1/2000 s shutter speed (exceptions exist such as needing to stop action in motorsports).  Those short shutter speeds minimize the effect of read noise, which is a major contributor to total noise when light is limiting.  So, ISO 6400 and 1/2000 s is going to look a lot better than ISO 6400 at 1/60 s.

This makes perfect sense Neuro and I always wondered why I had better high ISO shots in daylight!  From my own limited experience with the 5D mkII, if I need to shoot at 6400 or even at 12,800 during the day to stop the action it gives me very good and usable results.  However if I try the same settings indoors at night in low lights the noise shows up a lot more and even with a heavy dose of noise reduction in Lightroom, the picture then become very "artificial" and not usable...
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funkboy

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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2011, 03:47:59 PM »
Like this:



(D700 & 85mm f/1.4 wide-open)

I was the backup that day on a friend's D300, but got to use the D700 for about a minute.  Sweet setup.

Note to self:  make sure the bride doesn't take her earrings off before a shoot...
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 03:49:51 PM by funkboy »

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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2011, 03:47:59 PM »

poias

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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2011, 04:47:12 PM »
Like this:



(D700 & 85mm f/1.4 wide-open)

I was the backup that day on a friend's D300, but got to use the D700 for about a minute.  Sweet setup.

Note to self:  make sure the bride doesn't take her earrings off before a shoot...

Fantastic shot, but with 12mpx, you are hoping that your shot is spot on (like this) so that you do not have to crop much. My philosophy in shooting is bringing in raw ingredients and it is in PP where the magic happens.

Most of my 21mpx turn out to be 15 or even 10mpx even everything is said and done. I cannot afford a 12mpx, because it will cripple my WF (and may be make me better). The risk is too much!

wockawocka

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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2011, 06:14:14 PM »
Like this:



(D700 & 85mm f/1.4 wide-open)

I was the backup that day on a friend's D300, but got to use the D700 for about a minute.  Sweet setup.

Note to self:  make sure the bride doesn't take her earrings off before a shoot...

Fantastic shot, but with 12mpx, you are hoping that your shot is spot on (like this) so that you do not have to crop much.

Not heard of genuine fractals then?
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Cetalis

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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2011, 06:45:08 PM »
Fantastic shot, but with 12mpx, you are hoping that your shot is spot on (like this) so that you do not have to crop much. My philosophy in shooting is bringing in raw ingredients and it is in PP where the magic happens.

Most of my 21mpx turn out to be 15 or even 10mpx even everything is said and done. I cannot afford a 12mpx, because it will cripple my WF (and may be make me better). The risk is too much!

Isn't it riskier to hope that what you want just happens to be in your image? Don't want to sound belligerent but, um, aren't you supposed to use the viewfinder to make sure your shot is 'spot on'?

JR

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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2011, 06:47:18 PM »
Like this:



(D700 & 85mm f/1.4 wide-open)

I was the backup that day on a friend's D300, but got to use the D700 for about a minute.  Sweet setup.

Note to self:  make sure the bride doesn't take her earrings off before a shoot...

Fantastic shot, but with 12mpx, you are hoping that your shot is spot on (like this) so that you do not have to crop much. My philosophy in shooting is bringing in raw ingredients and it is in PP where the magic happens.

Most of my 21mpx turn out to be 15 or even 10mpx even everything is said and done. I cannot afford a 12mpx, because it will cripple my WF (and may be make me better). The risk is too much!

Great shot funkboy.  For me though i am not yet at the level where I can compose eveyone of my shot like this one.  To get there, I still need to crop a lot of them.  What ISO was your shot taken again?
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thepancakeman

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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2011, 07:02:37 PM »
Isn't it riskier to hope that what you want just happens to be in your image? Don't want to sound belligerent but, um, aren't you supposed to use the viewfinder to make sure your shot is 'spot on'?

Not to pick on you specifically, but it seems like there is a lot of "if you fix it in post, you suck as a photographer" type of comments or at least insinuations, and I guess I disagree with that.  I view photography as a visual art, not a "how well can you time the button pushing" art.

If you can capture that visual art straight out of the camera, great.  But if I use a bunch of post processing and get as good or better results, does that somehow make my product inferior?  We are using different tools and skills neither of which is inherently superior to the other to achieve the same end result.

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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2011, 07:03:06 PM »
Please tell me how you know this factored into any Canon design or marketing decisions.



Since Nikon is competing with these 12mpx, Canon hosed us by going back on resolution in the flagship 1Dx.
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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2011, 07:03:06 PM »

epsiloneri

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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2011, 07:04:17 PM »
Those short shutter speeds minimize the effect of read noise, which is a major contributor to total noise when light is limiting.  So, ISO 6400 and 1/2000 s is going to look a lot better than ISO 6400 at 1/60 s.

I found this intriguing. Why would read-out noise change with exposure time? Is the read-out mode really different for different exposure times? If that was indeed the case, I would have expected the slower read-out mode to be cleaner. Are you sure you don't mean the dark current? I wouldn't have though the dark current would be perceptible for exposures shorter than 1 second, even at 6400, but I could be wrong of course. I usually like to refer to Clarkvision for technical details, because I like their write up, but unfortunately they haven't measured the dark noise of detectors (probably because it is negligible in typical situations with shorter than a second exposures). Can you point me to somewhere where the effect you describe is documented?


gmrza

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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2011, 07:38:53 PM »
I would have bought a D3S for the low light performance, but switching all my lenses makes the cost of a body look like chump change.

Tha main advantage of high mp is the ability to crop, and I do a lot of cropping of my 5D MK II images with good results.  If you fill the frame of a 12 mp camera the image will be excellent, since 6mp is about all you need for most prints.

In the last sentence lies the point as to why 12MP is not an issue for many shooters: an image file is not a final product and, in most cases, clients never get to see the image file.  If you consider the portrait/wedding world, clients buy prints, mounted prints, albums etc.  In many areas of photography (there are exceptions to this) the client does not care what camera you use, provided you deliver the results - which the client can hang on the wall or moor on the coffee table.
For press shooters, for instance, it is more important to get the shot (i.e. AF, high ISO capability, fps) than being able to blow the result up to billboard size.

(There are more specialised areas where the specific gear you use matters more.)

for my personal photos, I like to have as much resolution as possible - who knows what I may want to do with the image in 10 years time.  For the material my wife shoots for her clients, the files will all be deleted after a few years anyhow - you can't keep all the material for ever, so as long as there is enough resolution there to produce the products the client wants, that is good enough.

Camera manufacturers have done a good job so far, continually convincing us that we always need more megapixels, in order to sell us new cameras.  With the exception of a few users who really need high resolution, the times have changed, and Canon, Nikon et al need to find new reasons to convince us to shell out for new gear if our current gear isn't broken.
Digital has been wonderful for Canon and Nikon, because we have all been buying new bodies at a much higher rate.  Film bodies had a much longer "lifespan" before anyone worried about upgrading, with the end result of lower sales.  (Of course we didn't spend less money, because a lot of our money went into film and developing.)
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Re: How can Nikon remain in business with 12MP FF?
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2011, 07:38:53 PM »