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Author Topic: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights  (Read 42730 times)

RayS2121

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2011, 03:19:42 PM »
It is naive to expect 5D3 sooner, especially if Canon is planning on recycling 1DX like sensor in 5D3. Even with lower stats, 1DX buyers spending a whopping ~$7000 will be pissed off if the sensor, the central feature, the brain is the same with a cheaper cousin that is already announced.

I agree. It is either simultaneously or with a significant delay.

Actually, announcement cannot be simultaneous with 1DX release cycle or even overlap it in anyway especially if 5d3 has a similar sensor to 1DX and costs half as much! Canon will have to wait for 1DX to hit the market and be in users hands (2 to 3 months?) before they announce 5D3. This is a likley scenario and would be the repeat of what they did earlier with 5D2 release ~3 years ago. That time-line automatically takes 5D3 announcement to April to November 2012. Add a few months for shipping/ store availability and you arrive at Christmas 2012 or early 2013. 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 03:41:22 PM by RayS2121 »

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2011, 03:19:42 PM »

minestrone

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2011, 04:03:48 PM »
I've had my 5D Mark II since the first week of its release (I'm sure many of you have as well). Its been years since an update. Two things that I'm already pissed off about...

1.) I don't want to wait till 2012 for a new Full Frame.
2.) I don't want to step back in the MP count. I do products, landscapes and portraits. I don't care about FPS. I don't care about AF. Neither the original 5D or the current 5DMII were meant to be high FPS sports cameras. If you want that, buy a used 1D or a 7D.

The thought of waiting another year and having an 18MP FF is Fu*ked up.

Here's what I want (and I'm no one special so Canon won't care)

32MP or 36MP Full Frame Sensor
There were plenty of talks that the L lenses wouldn't be able to handle the 21MP from the 5D Mark II but I've taken tons of photos where the sharpness has been beyond anything I could hope for. So whatever, I'm sure it'll survive 36MP and at least do an "ok" job of rendering images.

4 FPS at 32MP
6 FPS at 12MP s-raw
The 6 FPS is a bonus. 4 FPS would suffice.

Vastly improved AF with more zone coverage.
The current diamond shape AF from the 5D Mark II is garbage. I think we can all agree that the 5DmIII needs better AF regardless if you want more or less MP/FPS.

Improved weather sealing
I have to say though, I took my 5D Mark II into a Hawaiian rainforest and it was pouring and the camera and lens did just fine. Very humid too. On another occasion I was recording rain in a grassy field and again, the 5DmII was perfectly ok. So weather sealing on this camera is NOT bad.

Better ISO noise at 6400 and 12800.
That's really as high as I ever go. If they can reduce noise by 25% in those two high ranges I'd be a happy camper. I understand that the larger the MP count the more it suffers from ISO noise. So I'm ok with whatever they can produce in this area.

Price: $2800
I'd be willing to pay $3000. Maybe I'm asking for too much and not paying enough? I don't know. I guess none of this matters since the camera looks like it'll be a MP runt.

photophreek

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2011, 04:32:48 PM »
A 18 mp sensor is fine.  You can't print more than 10 and your eyes can't tell the difference between 21 and 32.  All I want is clean files at any ISO.  In addition, I want the 5d 3 to have the 7d AF system at a minimum, but better low light performance along with the custonization of the 7d.  Better DLA than the 7d would be good and I don't care about fps more than the current model. 

Much to the dismay of some of the responders here, this camera will not be priced at $2500.  Get ready for a $3500 price tag.  If this supposed camera doesn't show up by the summer or more positive information/specs don't emerge, then the 1D X might have a permanent spot in my camera bag. 

Minnesota Nice

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2011, 04:34:43 PM »
I'd like the 7D Mark II to have these features (totally catered to my own needs though):

Continuous AF in video
High frame rate (8FPS is already nice)
Dual Digic 5+
Weather sealing

Hmmm...  That's all I can really think of aside from dual SD/Compact Flash or XQD card slots.

photophreek

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2011, 05:06:00 PM »
dilbert wrote:

Quote
Why would Canon bring the 5D3 in at a price over that of the original 5D? I can see no justification for it, either in their practices nor the competitive landscape that is the current market.

Canon released the 500mm Mk II priced higher than the Mk I.  In addition the 70-200 II was priced 25% more than the Mk I.  If the 5d 3 sensor is the same as the 1D X, R&D can be spread out amongst more cameras.

The 5d 3 should be priced based on the compareable Nikon model or slightly higher.  The feature/function set I described in my "wish list" 5d 3 would not be a $2500 camera and not too far from $3000+.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 05:08:44 PM by photophreek »

Zuuyi

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2011, 05:09:02 PM »
The 5D3 will not be above $3k.

The 1Dx is a pro only tool, so it's priced accordingly.  But the 5d3 will be pros/semi-pros who buy it.  What happen since the 5d2 was planned and came out. The economy crashed and still hasn't recovered.

The 5d3 will be right around $2500-2750.

All I want is 24+MP (I would love 30+MP but not likely), 3+ FPS (sorry I don't need more), ISO/DR/Noise Improvements, and some video improvements.

It would also be great if the offered the supposed new 24-70L as a kit lens.

Arkarch

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2011, 05:27:58 PM »
It would also be great if the offered the supposed new 24-70L as a kit lens.

Nice catch.  I am expecting a "hard bundle" for the first shipments and a new 24-70L would make a bunch of sense.

And yes, I do expect the CES timeframe.... 

I disagree. CES January 2012 announcements are very unrealistic... read my reasons above and at an earlier thread here:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2399.msg51182.html#msg51182

I read the article.  But I just dont see the empathy argument to not stomp on 1DX buyers.   Two different markets. 

Canon needs a major announcement at CES.  Its the biggest spotlight of the year and the one that attracts gobs of press.  The 1DX and C300 are pro offerings.  A 5DMarkIII gets them news and allows them opportunity to talk more about the new lenses and 1DX as its big brother (a big plus). 

If there is a delay, I think it would be rooted in production yield concerns about the new sensor that early in release, of course after the initial 1DX ships.  BTW, I do put a ton of creds into it being the same sensor for the obvious R&D and production efficiencies.  Higher MP probably in R&D, but not ready this cycle.

So I'll throw - Hard Bundle $4000 (body eventually $2500-3000) shipping in mid-summer, announce CES, as the sibling to the 1DX - into the pool.   

And of course I will probably be wrong :)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 05:33:03 PM by Arkarch »
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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2011, 05:27:58 PM »

RayS2121

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2011, 05:53:29 PM »
  But I just dont see the empathy argument to not stomp on 1DX buyers.   Two different markets. 

Canon needs a major announcement at CES.  Its the biggest spotlight of the year and the one that attracts gobs of press.  The 1DX and C300 are pro offerings.  A 5DMarkIII gets them news and allows them opportunity to talk more about the new lenses and 1DX as its big brother (a big plus). 

If there is a delay, I think it would be rooted in production yield concerns about the new sensor that early in release, of course after the initial 1DX ships.  BTW, I do put a ton of creds into it being the same sensor for the obvious R&D and production efficiencies.  Higher MP probably in R&D, but not ready this cycle.

So I'll throw - Hard Bundle $4000 (body eventually $2500-3000) shipping in mid-summer, announce CES, as the sibling to the 1DX - into the pool.   

And of course I will probably be wrong :)

And I concur with you that you will be wrong ;)

If 5D3 is announced in CES January 2012,  I'll eat my hat ;) No 5D3 announcement before April and may be as late as end of the year around Christmas.

Canon will have stuff to show off at CES, they have just released two major cameras: 1DX and a totally new cinema system. Nikon is scrambling just to meet 1Dx and all we have from Nikon is rumors of this that or the other. Nothing CONCRETE whatsoever yet. So canon is under no major pressure. And I am sure there will be lenses annonced and more info and teasers on 1DX picture samples and "hands on" to trickle in the coming months. So  Canon can keep the pot boiling for a while yet. Sucks I know, but that's marketing. ;)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 05:55:34 PM by RayS2121 »

whatta

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2011, 06:05:26 PM »
I'd like the 7D Mark II to have these features (totally catered to my own needs though):

Continuous AF in video
High frame rate (8FPS is already nice)
Dual Digic 5+
Weather sealing

Hmmm...  That's all I can really think of aside from dual SD/Compact Flash or XQD card slots.

7d2 will have a new sensor for sure. Canon might "dare" to reuse the 18mp apsc sensor (5th time) in the 650d, but not for the 7d2. And maybe a new efs 15-60 f2.8  ;)

or maybe the 650d, 700d, 70d and 7d2 will have the same apsc sensor again..
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Arkarch

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2011, 06:10:00 PM »
And I concur with you that you will be wrong ;)

And I'll have a 1DX in my bag.

(if the 5DMark III is 2013 release)

So we both win! :D 
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traveller

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2011, 06:11:03 PM »
Nice catch.  I am expecting a "hard bundle" for the first shipments and a new 24-70L would make a bunch of sense.

If a 24-70 f/2.8L replacement is announced next year, then it will probably initially be made available to 1D X buyers only, but I can't see it bundled with a 5D Mk.II replacement -it would be too expensive. 

Canon needs a major announcement at CES.  Its the biggest spotlight of the year and the one that attracts gobs of press. 

CES is not the only big show next year, there's Photokina at the end of September; traditionally, this has been the more important show (compared to the old, pre-CES integrated PMA) for announcing higher-end cameras. 

michael6liu

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2011, 06:17:17 PM »
The 5D3 will not be above $3k.

The 1Dx is a pro only tool, so it's priced accordingly.  But the 5d3 will be pros/semi-pros who buy it.  What happen since the 5d2 was planned and came out. The economy crashed and still hasn't recovered.

Curiously, the 5D2 was announced in September of 2008, right in the middle of the first big recent crash. Up until a few months ago, its price was steady at around $2599. Thus it could be said that the status of the economy had little to no impact on the ability of Canon to sell the 5D2.

Quote
The 5d3 will be right around $2500-2750.

I'm holding out for Canon to break the $2000 price barrier with the MSRP of the 5D3.

Recall that in other comments on this website that someone from Canon said that their biggest problem in engineering was bringing in all of the requisite features at the correct price point.

So ask yourselves, what price point would Canon be designing the 5D3 for? $3000? $2500? $2000?

The Sony Alpha 900 was the first full-frame camera to be sold at under $2000 but didn't really take off. With all of the excitement around the NEX and latest A65/A77, it is going to be a completely different story for the A9X and I can't see why Sony would price it higher. Sony wants to disrupt the stranglehold on the FF DSLR market that Canon/Nikon have and the best way for them to do that is with good quality, compelling features and a very attractive price. If Sony's latest announcements are anything to go by then Sony will deliver on all three fronts. We can pretty much forget about there being new compelling features in a 5D3 because that just isn't how Canon do camera design. So what's left? Quality & price. Consider that the 24MP APS-C sensor from Sony is delivering excellent IQ for the NEX-7. Given that the FF sensor for the A9X is going to have bigger pixels than that, it stands to reason that the A9X will have IQ that is at least as good as the NEX-7, if not better. So if Canon are insistent on delivering an 18MP 5D3, expect it to be the cheapest (or close to) FF DSLR announced in 2012 and for the feature set in it designed to deliver that price.

I would not hold my breath for 5dIII to be $2000. It will be around $2500-3000 when released. The recent price drop on 5dII has more to do with retailers during holiday season than anything. It might even go up slightly early next year until 5dIII announcement. Hopefully around CES, but more likely to be Photokina.

Sony is showing some promising results from the NEX7 but that is just one mirroless camera with a crop sensor. There are a couple of hurdles Sony needs to pass first before they can challenge Canon & Nikon:
1. Fix A77. If anything, the A77 (APS-C sensor) proves Sony is lacking in one area or the other when it comes to producing a conventional DSLR. That translates into a big unknown for their full-frame DSLR.
2. Get the lenses on par with Canon & Nikon. What's a camera system without proper lenses to max out its potential? At this moment, NEX7 is heavily relying on lenses manufactured by others, like Leica. It is accetable for now with an adapter but what does that tell you about Sony as a brand? Is that the kind of company people wanna invest money into? There's no easy way to do this and it will take a long time.

Personally, I would not bother with a Sony full-frame even if it's priced at $2000. I have invested in Canon's gears and I have no intention of switching unless my disposable income just shoots off the roof so that I can buy Sony stuff on the side. Just like the CPU racing between AMD and Intel, AMD came up strong at one point but seems to have dialed down a bit these days. Nevertheless, the end result is that competition has created a whole bunch of happy consumers :).

Quote
If a 24-70 f/2.8L replacement is announced next year, then it will probably initially be made available to 1D X buyers only, but I can't see it bundled with a 5D Mk.II replacement -it would be too expensive. 

Agreed. Besides, every kit lens so far has IS.

Arkarch

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2011, 06:36:01 PM »
Nice catch.  I am expecting a "hard bundle" for the first shipments and a new 24-70L would make a bunch of sense.

If a 24-70 f/2.8L replacement is announced next year, then it will probably initially be made available to 1D X buyers only, but I can't see it bundled with a 5D Mk.II replacement -it would be too expensive. 

You may be right about that.  But what a way to introduce in a two-for-one; and really, it is one of major workhorse lenses 5D owners will likely have.

Personally I still want a 17-40 bundle (or 16-35 if that made bundling sense) to replace my 10-22 when I finally go FF.   I got the 24-105 already, like I need another one just to buy the camera.
 
Canon needs a major announcement at CES.  Its the biggest spotlight of the year and the one that attracts gobs of press. 

CES is not the only big show next year, there's Photokina at the end of September; traditionally, this has been the more important show (compared to the old, pre-CES integrated PMA) for announcing higher-end cameras.

That Canon is co-op marketing flyers in regional markets with the 7D and 5DMarkII suggests that Canon sees them partially as a consumer (or at very least semi-pro) offering.  Both shows arguably make sense - but CES is the bigger bang for the wider press coverage imo - you can get a Canon 5DMarkIII on CNET, CNBC, Today Show etc - and they can then may sneak a mention new lenses and the 1DX into that (though arguably the point-n-shoots will still attract the most attention).      At the same time, I can not see the 1DX or C300 making any sort of press dent at CES, other than as a "what you can aspire to" trophy - much more of a Photokina / hard industry-only item.

Personally, I would not bother with a Sony full-frame even if it's priced at $2000. I have invested in Canon's gears and I have no intention of switching unless my disposable income just shoots off the roof so that I can buy Sony stuff on the side. Just like the CPU racing between AMD and Intel, AMD came up strong at one point but seems to have dialed down a bit these days. Nevertheless, the end result is that competition has created a whole bunch of happy consumers :).

Agreed.  Sony has a mountain to climb; so they need to be competitive.  And they have lots of convincing to get me to part with a lens investment.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 06:45:20 PM by Arkarch »
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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2011, 06:36:01 PM »

JR

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2011, 07:39:49 PM »
So all this could seem consistant with some other reports can Canon is looking into a high MP camera meaning it will not be the next EOS body launch.  This might also suggest that if they release a high MP camera it might be more pro level (between the 5D and 1D or even a new verison of the 1D) and I recall many poeple on this forum asking for such pro level high MP camera, so this might be a good news, just with a prooduct lauch a little later then some would prefer.

Now for the 5DIII, I would buy one even if the sensor is 18MP because I would assume that the new sensor is several generation more advance than the current 21MP of the 5DII so in effect in image quality we might all be winners here.  As long as we have real life resolution, ability to crop and still get amazing picture because you have enought resolution, then we should not be worried no! 

Now for pricing, a lot of folks seem to have strong opinion about the new camera pricing for the 5DIII.  For me at least for the "upgrade" market, I think pricing is less important.  What I mean by that is weither the price is $2200 or $2800 for example, if the 5DIII is better than the 5DII, I will by it anyway.  We all have so much invested in lenses, that I dont think our price elasticity is very high!

My two cents anyway...The wait is killing me!  I just want more new gadgets!
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Wahoowa

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2011, 08:17:39 PM »
My ambition is really low. :)

My wish list for 5D3:

- Improved & cleaner sensor at high ISO (1+ stop improvement over 5D2)
- 19 cross-type AF points,
- weather seal,
- LP-E6 battery pack (If they update it, just make it compatible with 7D/60D and vice versa.), and
- SD/CF slots,
- f-stop adjustable in Av mode for video (just like 5D2, whereas 7D/60D just have either full auto or full manual mode).

If 5D3 comes out with that for $2,600-$2,700, I'll buy it in a heartbeat. :)

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2011, 08:17:39 PM »