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Author Topic: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..  (Read 17579 times)

M.R.Rafsanjani

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2011, 10:46:25 AM »
who cares what others call you or what annoys them.. do what pleases you.. live your life for yourself and not for the gratification of others...

-1.  I have no idea what the cultural implications of this are in Malaysia, but simply telling someone to do whatever they want without a broader context is selfish and short-sighted.

+1:  I was thinking the same... there's a reason why the OP posted the question, he is looking for rationale or a justification of sorts. It's important for him...

Is he looking for platitudes or an opinion?

opinion, but I prefer to find the reasons behind so that I could better define myself clearly state the border behind the 'pro-photgrapher' and 'just photographer'.

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2011, 10:46:25 AM »

M.R.Rafsanjani

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2011, 11:03:28 AM »
Just because this is such a fun discussion already highlighting the vagaries of the english language.

Some of the definitions of 'professional':
  • Engaged in one of the learned professions
  • Exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner
  • Following a line of conduct as though it were a profession

And a 'profession' is?
  • A calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive academic preparation
  • A principal calling, vocation, or employment

And a calling is?
  • A strong inner impulse toward a particular course of action especially when accompanied by conviction of divine influence
  • The vocation or profession in which one customarily engages.

So setting aside the fact that a profession is a calling which is a profession we should all be quite clear now on who is a "professional photographer" right?   :o ??? ;D :-\

Thanks for that thepancakeman, looking at the business perspective, a professional is still people who earn 100% from photography and this is also described by CPS Asia (Canon Professional Service Asia) if you want to join them. I did some seach to find something that support their statement and what I can say is :

1. I love and learn to improve in photography = I'm a photographer

2. I earn 100% in photography = I'm a professional photographer*

3. I earn 50% (or less) in photography = I'm a amateur photographer*

4. I just "point and shoot" and I owned EOS-1Dx = I'm a cameraman**

I know that that is no law to define yourself as a photographer, but I just agree with some of you guys (as Jim Lai also write in his article**), if we are willingly to improve and make a progress in photography, so it is proper to call youself a photographer, isn't it???

Although photography is an art, but having a DSLR isn;t a license to call yourself photographer, right?

I like this point :

With photography it's just that it's not the same as labeling someone an artist even though they don't use it as a profession.



*http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/what-is-a-pro.htm
**http://www.jiminlai.com/blog/archives/922

juwi

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2011, 11:18:22 AM »
Thanks for that thepancakeman, looking at the business perspective, a professional is still people who earn 100% from photography and this is also described by CPS Asia (Canon Professional Service Asia) if you want to join them. I did some seach to find something that support their statement and what I can say is :

1. I love and learn to improve in photography = I'm a photographer

2. I earn 100% in photography = I'm a professional photographer*

3. I earn 50% (or less) in photography = I'm a amateur photographer*

4. I just "point and shoot" and I owned EOS-1Dx = I'm a cameraman**

I know that that is no law to define yourself as a photographer, but I just agree with some of you guys (as Jim Lai also write in his article**), if we are willingly to improve and make a progress in photography, so it is proper to call youself a photographer, isn't it???

Although photography is an art, but having a DSLR isn;t a license to call yourself photographer, right?


+1
I totally agree with that. After all photography is about art, passion and learning stuff, not about having some piece of paper that says that you have finished an apprenticeship or the like in photography.


distant.star

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2011, 11:42:32 AM »
Interesting how money poisons almost everything.
Walter: Were you listening to The Dude's story? Donny: I was bowling. Walter: So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...

thepancakeman

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2011, 11:47:14 AM »
Thanks for that thepancakeman, looking at the business perspective, a professional is still people who earn 100% from photography and this is also described by CPS Asia (Canon Professional Service Asia) if you want to join them. I did some seach to find something that support their statement and what I can say is :

1. I love and learn to improve in photography = I'm a photographer

2. I earn 100% in photography = I'm a professional photographer*

3. I earn 50% (or less) in photography = I'm a amateur photographer*

4. I just "point and shoot" and I owned EOS-1Dx = I'm a cameraman**

I know that that is no law to define yourself as a photographer, but I just agree with some of you guys (as Jim Lai also write in his article**), if we are willingly to improve and make a progress in photography, so it is proper to call youself a photographer, isn't it???


For their purposes they have to define specific requirements, but there are still easy examples that make it laughable.  Option 3--I am an "amateur photographer" because I only make $200,000 a year doing photography but happen to have an investment portfolio that nets me $300,000 a year.  RRRIIIIIGGGHHHHT.
 ::)

(BTW, that is a theoretical example, not my personal situation.   :'()

Minnesota Nice

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2011, 11:56:24 AM »
Photographer: "The art or practice of taking photographs"

I'd call you a photographer, but that's just me.'

Anyone that likes to take pictures is a photographer in my eyes.  Maybe not a "professional" but a photographer regardless.

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2011, 12:22:53 PM »
Really fascinating thread.

The only clear line between amateur and professional is the exchange of money. Interesting in our western culture how that is perceived. An "amateur" is devalued because he or she does not take money for his or her work, but has the freedom to produce whatever he or she wants to. Many "amateurs" aspire to be professionals.

A "professional" takes money for the work, but has to please the person who is paying. Professionals envy the amateurs who are not constrained by the demands of the marketplace.

And, then there are the "artists" who produce work to satisfy themselves but sell that work to others who also find it satisfying. And, even in the art world there is a reverse hierarchy. An artist who becomes "too" successful commercially is often considered less of an artist than one who struggles financially. Hence, Edward Weston is considered a "better" artist than Ansel Adams because Weston lived his entire life on the edge of poverty. (Or maybe, he is considered better because he really was better?)

In the end, there is hardly a single person on the face of the earth today who has not, at one time or another, been a "photographer" by virtue of having taken a picture, whether it be with a 1DX or an iPhone.

Personally, when people ask me if I am a professional photographer (I never get asked if I am a photographer, since that's usually self-evident from the camera, camera bag, etc) I simply say, "No, I am just crazy."
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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2011, 12:22:53 PM »

smirkypants

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2011, 12:55:14 PM »
The basic problem here is that there's no licensing board that can proclaim you a photographer. Many professions exclude people--for good or for bad--by creating professional standards. The hard truth is that any bonobo can grab a camera, hang out a shingle and say "I'm a photographer." There are no "board certified" photographers.

I guess the problem that a lot of really good photographers have is being lumped in the same category as that monkey who just got back from Best Buy with a 7D/28-135 kit.  It hurts our pride and makes us defensive. I've also found that I feel a need to say nice things about the work of ALL fellow photographers for the sake of collegiality when I really should be getting all Simon Cowell on many of them. Indeed, there's no way of saying "your work isn't very good" without sounding like a complete bunghole, even if the work isn't very good and the photographer has no talent. Of course there are matters of taste involved in any creative endeavor, but the truth is, though, sometimes the work just isn't all that good.

I don't know where that leaves me. Every time someone calls me a photographer, my ass twitches a little. Do I make money at it? Yes. Does it pay the bills? Yes. What do I tell people I do? I most often say "I'm just a monkey with a camera." A little self-deprecation never hurt anyone.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 01:39:20 PM by smirkypants »

KeithR

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2011, 01:13:01 PM »
You should seriously rethink your profession, and become a civil  litigator  ;)

I do work in law.

And your take on what a "photographer" is still makes no sense whatsoever.

Orion

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2011, 02:47:00 PM »
You should seriously rethink your profession, and become a civil  litigator  ;)

I do work in law.

And your take on what a "photographer" is still makes no sense whatsoever.

really!? That there should be different levels of what constitutes a "photographer" aka Enthusiast/amateur/pro??? No sense? That there is NO profession of "Photographer?" So that everyone that takes photos is a "photographer?" I think you'd be best served to read my post again ;)

Anyway, well with the arguments you put forth, it's a surprise you work in law (well, maybe not). Civil litigator you are not, sir. I studied critical thinking, inductive deductive syllogisms etc etc etc ( who cares), and all you put forth in your argument was unsound and invalid reasoning. . .

just a reminder:

Quote from: KeithR
When you get behind the wheel of your car of a morning to drive to your job, aren't you a driver every bit as much as Sebastian Vettel, even though your drive might be to a dull paper-shuffling job in an office somewhere?

Guess you are a paper shuffler . . . since you work "in law"

====

btw, people can select the "negative" on the plus/minus Karma thingy, but it ain't going to change a damn thing.

Photographer: "The art or practice of taking photographs"

I'd call you a photographer, but that's just me.'

Anyone that likes to take pictures is a photographer in my eyes.  Maybe not a "professional" but a photographer regardless.

Right! Enthusiast, etc. . . . but when it is PHOTOGRAPHER, you best have that shingle hung up. Many different levels of good and bad photographers out there. . . as long as they have a business, then they ARE Photographers . . . NOT enthusiasts/hobbyists/leisure

It goes back to what I said before: if you take ophotos for your own enjoyment, would you refer to yourself as a photographer, when sonmeone asks you "what do you do!?" NO . . there would be no comfort in that. IF you took photos for prints to sell or for any other sort of income etc, you would be well advised to answer " I am a photographer."

The basic problem here is that there's no licensing board that can proclaim you a photographer.


Don't need one: if you make some sort of living taking photos, then you are a Photographer ;) Like I said, though. . . I guess you can call everybody with hundreds of photos on Flickr a photographer, but then it becomes too arbitrary, throwing it out there so that when a pro or someone that makes money from his art is called a photographer, it's got no legitimacy or worth . . . . even my 8 year old nephew is a photographer, even thogh he has hundreds of photos and non much worth anything, being a "photographer. . . ."

I guess that yu can say that I am trying to distinguish bewteen what  licensing board would term a photographer, v what someone taking photos for leisure and the like, would call a photographer, basically put.

Do I make money at it? Yes. Does it pay the bills? Yes. What do I tell people I do? I most often say "I'm just a monkey with a camera." A little self-deprecation never hurt anyone.

haha, well take it from me, YOU are a Photographer. It's WHAT YOU DO! even though it is what you LIKE doing. Youare anot some flickr pusher that craves the lame ass awards and posts of gratitude whenever youpost a overly saturated photo and call that art, ever since you learned how to make HDR photos . . . or whatever the hell it is that THEY call them.

Is it so hard to distinguish one thing from the other here: just simply if you make this a profession, then you are a photographer . . and rightly so , no mater how good or bad your photos are. I can;t picture myself telling anyone I am a photograp[her, even though I may be one that simply takes phohota for my enjoyment and as a hobby. Hence, I can't look someone in the eyes and say "Yes, I am a Photogrpaher!" I guess it's just me. . . . so, please no offense meant to anyone. Rather I'd say, "I work in some other job or are out of a job but I would love to be a photographer some day . . that is why I am taking thousands of photos right now and posting them on flickr . . it would be a real joy to become a photographer."

^That is my mindset, and the whole damn point ;)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 03:15:50 PM by Orion »

Minnesota Nice

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2011, 07:03:48 PM »
If you like to take pictures, whether it be a 1D Mark IV, 5D Mark II, or your iPhone camera I'll call you a photographer.

If you make 100% of your income with camera equipment and taking pictures, I'll call you a professional.

If you make money to the side with it I'll call you an amateur or enthusiast.

wickidwombat

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2011, 07:39:29 PM »
There's the separation of terms Photographer and Professional Photographer... While most anyone with a camera and an understanding how to use it and to do so in a way to create images is/could be considered a Photographer, but most Professional Photographers do so for the sake of compensation whether it be money/barter/accolades, etc... The problem is most people blur the lines which is why most photographers will admit their greatest competition is amateur photographers... Professional photographers try to set their quality and price bracket at the next tier above but then again when a couple to get some joe blow off the street, pay him $100-150 to shoot an hour or two of their wedding and provide a CD of the images, hell yeah, that would be an easier sell than a pro to shoot it for $1500-3000 and get an album and handful of pictures...  As for the OP, sure, call yourself a photographer but make sure if there is any confusion that you are not professional, unless you get to the point where you wish to become professional and developed a portfolio.

When someone who takes photos for a hobby refers to themselves as a photographer I don't mind so much, but then if they start to claim they are a "pro" after making a semi-decent portfolio and then undercharging to get some jobs that takes work away from people who make a living from photography I am not happy >:(

This month I have lost out on two wedding jobs because of people like this. One was an email to the effect of "we'd really like you to take our photos, but we found another guy who will shoot all day for 100 dollars, so if you would drop you rate somewhat, say to 400 dollars (my minimum for a basic package is about 1200) we'd be willing to hire you." Errrm, no.

you need to watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hpJ1iPD5RQ

enjoy :D
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wickidwombat

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2011, 07:48:01 PM »
*http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/what-is-a-pro.htm
**http://www.jiminlai.com/blog/archives/922


LOL IMO that ken rockwell site is one of the worst around for giving out plain wrong information and overly subjective opinion... i would take anything from that site with a bagload of salt
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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2011, 07:48:01 PM »

M.R.Rafsanjani

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2011, 09:43:44 PM »
Personally, when people ask me if I am a professional photographer (I never get asked if I am a photographer, since that's usually self-evident from the camera, camera bag, etc) I simply say, "No, I am just crazy."

LOL! but it make sense.

you need to watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hpJ1iPD5RQ

enjoy :D

is that what truly happens? but the photographer speaks the truth.

Interesting how money poisons almost everything.

 +1: I found some forum discussing bout the term 'professional', and many agree that to be pro you need a pro equipment! It looks like money control everything...

 
The basic problem here is that there's no licensing board that can proclaim you a photographer.


Don't need one: if you make some sort of living taking photos, then you are a Photographer ;) Like I said, though. . . I guess you can call everybody with hundreds of photos on Flickr a photographer, but then it becomes too arbitrary, throwing it out there so that when a pro or someone that makes money from his art is called a photographer, it's got no legitimacy or worth . . . . even my 8 year old nephew is a photographer, even thogh he has hundreds of photos and non much worth anything, being a "photographer. . . ."

Idk this is just a rumor or what,  but after Malaysian first photojournalist had been shot and killed at Somalia, the government is taking an initiative to protect the photographer by making a lisence/law/insurance kinda like that to protect them.

handsomerob

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Re: Can I called myself photographer? plz, you need to help me..
« Reply #59 on: December 23, 2011, 02:22:09 PM »