December 10, 2016, 06:24:41 AM

Author Topic: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!  (Read 19505 times)

Flake

  • Guest
DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« on: January 12, 2012, 04:52:36 AM »
Not my words of course, but a piece written on the 'Stuck in Customs' website.

http://www.stuckincustoms.com/2012/01/04/dslrs-are-a-dying-breed-3rd-gen-cameras-are-the-future/

He does have a point the 'mirrorless' cameras are big heavy expensive & high profile, many entry level buyers will make a choice not to buy a DSLR, and as the quality improves with large sensors & faster lenses, they are going to offer image quality just as high as the DSLR.

Obviously it's a discussion point, which is the whole reason for posting it!  But I think that Canon are well behind the game in this market, with no interchangeable lens camera, and despite the introduction of the G1X, it seems that they just don't understand the market at all.

canon rumors FORUM

DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« on: January 12, 2012, 04:52:36 AM »

Gothmoth

  • Guest
Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 05:25:06 AM »
even when the mirrors are gone one day, because electronic viewfinder are finally good enough and the sensor based phase detection is up to par with it´s optical sibling, the 35mm camera systems will still be here.

so who cares if a 9D MK2 will have a mirror or not?
if the EVF can match the optical one i don´t care.... im all for it!!

but do this guy really think nikon and canon will stop making aps-c and fullframe sensors for their current mounts? bullsh*t!

and EF mount cameras will always have a bigger sensor then mFT for example. so no matter how good the sensor technology gets... a bigger sensor of the same technology will always have better IQ then a smaller one.

i "fear" more about low cost/low quality point and shoot cameras, with all the mobile phone cameras, who needs a 90$ point and shoot?

Quote
it seems that they just don't understand the market at all.

but you are?   ;)
the problem to solve for a company is not what some photogs want.. it´s where the MONEY is.

i know that around 40% of my customers are ambitious amateurs.
everyone of them would love to have a camera like the 1DS or 1D X.
but guess how many will buy one? 

i sell a lot of mirrorless cameras, especially OLYMPUS PEN and PANASONIC G models.
but lens sales are bad compared to NIKON or CANON 35mm systems.

i think (im guessing) canon knows exactly what they are doing.
that they have no mirrorless exchangeable lens system out yet does not mean they don´t do a lot of R&D.

because mirroless owner do not invest as much in their systems as DSLR owners, they switch brands much easyer (my own experience from selling cameras).
many PEN and GF3 owners asking me for the new FUJI PRO camera already.

so if CANON will bring out a great mirrorless one day it will not be the same as if they have left the 35mm market to NIKON for years.
 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 05:51:20 AM by Gothmoth »

alipaulphotography

  • Guest
Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2012, 05:34:00 AM »
even when the mirrors are gone one day, because electronic viewfinder are finally good enough, the 35mm camera systems will still be there.

so who cares if a 9D MK2 will have a mirror or not?
if the EVF can match the optical one i don´t care.... im all for it!!

but do this guy really think nikon and canon will stop making aps-c and fullframe sensors for their current mounts? bullsh*t!

and EF mount cameras will always have a bigger sensor then mFT for example. so no matter how good the sensor technology gets... a bigger sensor of the same technology will always have better IQ then a smaller one.

The fuji X100 and the new X-Pro 1 have the same size sensor as all canon's cropped sensor dslrs

Leica M9 has a full frame sensor.

So it isn't really anything to do with sensor size. Smaller mirrorless bodies have no problem in holding larger sensors.

Shutter lag and autofocus  are better examples of what mirrorless cameras haven't quite trumped DSLRs at yet.

Gothmoth

  • Guest
Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2012, 05:45:24 AM »
So it isn't really anything to do with sensor size. Smaller mirrorless bodies have no problem in holding larger sensors.

you don´t get what im saying.  ;)

im aware of M9 .. i sell them.  ;)

what i say is, that 35mm system will not be replaced by mFT or other systems who have the possible benefit of even smaller bodys.
sales numbers will decline but there will still be a healthy market for 35mm (mirrorless) cameras.

Quote
Shutter lag and autofocus  are better examples

yes i had already added that to my original posting.
but nikon shows that sensor based phase detection can be the future.

i have no doubt that some day mirrors in cameras will be a thing of the past.

but all these articles who announce the dead of DSLR´s" forget that DSLR cameras have more to offer. i for one hate shooting in portrait mode with all these tiny cameras.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 07:03:25 AM by Gothmoth »

Flake

  • Guest
Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2012, 05:52:34 AM »
So it isn't really anything to do with sensor size. Smaller mirrorless bodies have no problem in holding larger sensors.

you don´t get what im saying.

im aware of M9 .. i sell them.  ;)

what i say is, that 35mm system will not be replaced by mFT or other systems who have the possible benefit of even smaller bodys.

I don't think the article imagines DSLRs becoming extinct, but rather that they will account for much less of the market than they currently do.

Viggo

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2712
Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 06:05:06 AM »
If one decides to buy a camera purley for sensor size, I say, great, but don't try to convince me THAT makes or breaks a camera.

For me there's MUUCH more reasons to buy a SLR camera. Size is one of them, try holding a NEX for two hours straight, trying using one quickly with no controls externally. Try to shoot ANY type of movement with a hybrid. If one still don't get the difference, an SLR is not for you, or you talked to a seller who knows squat. As a seller myself, I have no idea how many people asks me what to buy, hybrid or SLR, that end up with an SLR after trying a hybrid for 5 minutes with me telling them why it isn't any good, for other than to fit in your pocket (which most of them needs an additional pancake lens to do) and to shoot still-sitting subjects they aren't any good.

Give my son three sips of Coke and try getting 10 images sharp with a hybrid.. yeah.. that'll happen.

I'm not even going to mention how lack of optical VF cripples the hybrids from being properly useful. Okay so I mentioned it...
1dx, Zeiss 21 f2.8, 35 L II, 200 f2.0 L, Profoto B1.

Gothmoth

  • Guest
Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 06:08:52 AM »
I don't think the article imagines DSLRs becoming extinct,

well yes. but "dying breed" suggests something else.  ;)

Quote
but rather that they will account for much less of the market than they currently do.

as will P&S cameras is my guess (because of better mobile phone cameras).

my experience is that the "not photog customer" doesn´t care if he can change lenses.
they rather go with a great zoom range on a camera then the possibility to buy different lenses. that is why i sell a lot of PEN and GF cameras but not many lenses for them.

the normal people (what is still the majority) do not care much about changing lenses.
that is why you see so many REBEL owners (30-60 years old) with just a KIT lens.

they want better image quality then P&S cameras offer... but that´s it.

these people will (maybe) prefer to buy smaller mirrorless cameras in the future (i can agree to that).
but don´t be suprised i they switch to a G1 X kind of camera instead of cameras with a lens mount.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 06:15:57 AM by Gothmoth »

canon rumors FORUM

Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 06:08:52 AM »

SnapHappy

  • Guest
Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2012, 06:10:53 AM »
So it isn't really anything to do with sensor size. Smaller mirrorless bodies have no problem in holding larger sensors.

you don´t get what im saying.

im aware of M9 .. i sell them.  ;)

what i say is, that 35mm system will not be replaced by mFT or other systems who have the possible benefit of even smaller bodys.

I don't think the article imagines DSLRs becoming extinct, but rather that they will account for much less of the market than they currently do.

This! What people forget or don't know, is that before the rebel series (and then followed by every other companies equivalent) was released, the DSLR market was mostly made up of serious enthusiast and working pro's. The avg consumer couldn't afford or was unwilling to invest the kind of money it required to get into a system. Once Canon released the rebel in 2003 it opened up the world to affordable SLR shooting and the DSLR exploded.

I think these new mirror-less systems are here to stay and will only get better as they are adopted more and more into the consumer market. The compact size and fantastic IQ are exactly what the avg person would prefer and I see them, as they improve, killing off the entry level DSLR market all together. I think what we are going to see over the next 5-10 years is the DSLR market revert back to the pre-rebel days when only the serious enthusiast and working pro had them.

DSLR's won't die or be going anywhere anytime soon but make no mistake that the market share they currently hold is going to decrease. The avg shooter, soccer Dad and hockey Mom are more likely to pick up a mirror-less camera based on size alone.

Viggo

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2712
Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2012, 06:23:03 AM »


DSLR's won't die or be going anywhere anytime soon but make no mistake that the market share they currently hold is going to decrease. The avg shooter, soccer Dad and hockey Mom are more likely to pick up a mirror-less camera based on size alone.

Until they relalized that the AF is no where near coping with hockey and soccer.

I see another side to your argument though. Even though we have the highest quality on video and stills possible, bluray, handycams with fantastic quality, SLr's with even better video. We have the highest possible IQ of stills. But what I notice(working with picture devolopment) is that people are satisfied with a lot less, which is very interesting, people use their cellphones for everything now. They print thank you cards from a childs birth with a picture from a frikkin lousy phone, yellow noisy blurry pictures, and they think it's good enough. If you switch on "Americas funniest home videoes" I used to see high quality (apart from low res) videoes, with 30 fps. But now, all I see are complete crap videoes shot at 10 fps with a useless phone. Take youtube as the main example, people watch videoes all day long that suck in quality compared to what tech is available. People are becoming more and more into the old phrase "the best camera is the one you have with you".

They don't care if they picture is blurry or noisy, as long as you can somewhat make out who you actually took the picture of.

And if it's one thing I know, people usually have no clue how important, and how different the different AF-systems are.  And therefor come to me as a seller, saying, that camera sucks, without even knowing that is just the AF system. For that alone I tell people that the AF is the most important feature of the camera, and if you want to shoot moving subjects, SLR is the answer.

I have a lot of people syaing this sentence: "I don't need a professional camera, just something cheap, I just take pictures of my children running around, mostly in the living room, and I hate using flash"

That's pretty high up on the "Worst case scenario" list for a camera, but people have no clue. They want "the cheapest you've got with 16 mp"

I think we sold maybe 3 pieces of the Nikon 1-series, NO ONE asks about it, no interest at all, but it clearly has the best AF-system of the lot.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 06:30:17 AM by Viggo »
1dx, Zeiss 21 f2.8, 35 L II, 200 f2.0 L, Profoto B1.

Gothmoth

  • Guest
Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2012, 06:42:53 AM »
But what I notice(working with picture devolopment) is that people are satisfied with a lot less, which is very interesting, people use their cellphones for everything now. They print thank you cards from a childs birth with a picture from a frikkin lousy phone, yellow noisy blurry pictures, and they think it's good enough. If you switch on "Americas funniest home videoes"

exactly my experience.

an i tell you this... it´s depressing.   :D

i shoot portraits of my niece.
with softboxes, umbrellas, hair and rim lighting... or outdoors in the summer with a reflector, diffusor.... and my 5D MK2.

and when i show pictures to my ignorant (photographically speaking :) ) family there are some crappy mobile phone pictures between them shoot by my mother or my brother in law.

they notice the quality difference i guess... but they don´t care a sh*t.

when i delete a blurry or out of focus image all i hear is "hey wait that was a nice picture!!! why did you delete it??".

sharp eyes? .... often i ask myself who cares except a photog?

 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 06:47:43 AM by Gothmoth »

SnapHappy

  • Guest
Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 06:58:30 AM »
You both bring up great points which is why I believe the entry level DSLR market will dry up. "Good enough" seems to be the thought in today's society. How many avg shooters do you know who still use the kit lens? I know too many! MOST people are happy with one camera and one lens which is why I believe the size factor alone is enough to send the new systems to the top of the consumer market. They are small, light and the companies keep telling people the image quality rivals the best DSLR's on the planet.

Gothmoth

  • Guest
Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2012, 07:10:46 AM »
I know too many! MOST people are happy with one camera and one lens which is why I believe the size factor alone is enough to send the new systems to the top of the consumer market.

or these people will buy something like this:

http://www.artefactgroup.com/wvil/

;)

Maui5150

  • Canon 7D MK II
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2012, 07:17:39 AM »
There will always be good-enoughs... Those are the populous and masses.

For small compact camera, I could careless whether it has a mirror or not.  I am just looking for something I can fit in a pocket, slip into a concert, etc.

I think there are some inherent limits, AF being the most apparent... When you start seeing fashion magazine covers being shot with these, then start to worry. 

Will be interesting to see the short term affect as to what this does to the entry DSLR, whether they get stronger, more features and prices creep down in the entry to mid-market.

I think the entry DSLRs will still remain, because some people want to get into photography, want to work their way up to better bodies, and the lifecycle of upgrading body and lenses will not be replaced.   Now if they start having a mirrorless body that can take a EF 70-200 F/2.8L IS II or an EF 400 lens and actually be competent at focusing and shutter bursts, then I may worry. 

canon rumors FORUM

Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2012, 07:17:39 AM »

Gothmoth

  • Guest
Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2012, 07:24:21 AM »
Now if they start having a mirrorless body that can take a EF 70-200 F/2.8L IS II or an EF 400 lens and actually be competent at focusing and shutter bursts, then I may worry.

and why would you worry?
if the EVF is as good as the optical viewfinder or better and AF is great AND you can fit a EF lens onto that body.. why worry?  :)

i don´t think canon would make a body like that tiny as a NEX body.
because handling and ergonomy will still be an important point.

i think we will see a great improvement in sensor based phase AF over the next years.

i only care about the mirror as long as he is BETTER then the alternatives.
the day electronics can do a better job then a MIRROR.. i say get rid of it.

unfortunately all EVF still suck....


« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 07:29:48 AM by Gothmoth »

whatta

  • EOS M3
  • ****
  • Posts: 189
Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2012, 08:04:40 AM »
size does matter. otherwise I would have a 7d  ;)

EVF and AF will be getting better for sure and besides these two, fast primes are the reason for me to use dslr.

it seems the 650d will be my last dslr  :o
since the competition is bigger and bigger I hope it will come with a new sensor too not only with digic5.

btw I hate the fact that if you want a better camera it must be bigger.
like: you want AF-MA? buy a 7D.. pfff.
Canon 400d | efs 15-85 | efs 60/2.8 | Sigma 30/1.4 | (broken efs 17-85)

canon rumors FORUM

Re: DSLRs are a dying breed, EVIL is the future!
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2012, 08:04:40 AM »