November 23, 2017, 05:34:58 PM

Poll

I would buy a Canon FF mirrorless camera... (choose the ONE answer that BEST applies)

ONLY if Canon no longer makes FF DSLRs.
ONLY if Canon uses its existing EF FF mount and flange distance.
ONLY if Canon uses its existing EF-M mount and flange distance.
ONLY if Canon uses ANY of its existing mounts.
ONLY if Canon uses a new mount with a new line of lenses.
If Canon uses a NEW mount, but I would not replace any of my existing lenses with new mount lenses.
If Canon uses a NEW mount, and I WOULD buy new mount lenses even if I already have similar lenses.
No matter what!

Author Topic: Canon FF mirrorless Poll  (Read 14017 times)

Crosswind

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2017, 11:31:03 AM »
I was on the cusp of buying the m3 a little over a year ago. They didn't have any in stock but did have a used Fujifilm X-T10 with the 18-55 kit lens at a great price. I bought that. I haven't regretted it. It's a great camera and the four lenses I have for it are excellent.  I'm intrigued by the m5 and m6 but won't buy them. They'd be redundant. As far as a FF mirrorless is concerned, I'd be interested but wouldn't buy one. I've got all the camera gear I need and, truthfully, more than I need.

Yeah if that Fuji works for you, why buy something else. You're right. Just buy the tool that works best for you and call it a day. With the M5, I'm in the same spot as you are. I'm not in need of anything "better" or different, it just works, and boy it works really well. I guess it will be my tool of choice for the next several years, same as your Fuji is the tool of choice for you. I'm glad that you've found your "love".

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2017, 11:31:03 AM »

FTb-n

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2017, 11:56:04 AM »
... I like the DSLR and at FF sensor sizes I think it's been shown over and over that there is really isn't any size advantage, especially if you are shooting fast glass.  Generally speaking, I feel the mirrorless advantage is a smaller kit at the right sensor sizes.
I beg to differ.  I'm one who considers the differences between FF and crop to be advantages for the FF shooter.  Cleaner images at higher ISO offers more options in aperture and shutter speed choices.  Deeper color depth enriches the image.  In many cases, the FF sensor yeilds sharper images given the same glass.  And, you have greater control of depth of field since fast glass will offer thinner DOF on FF than on crop.

It's a fair point that the smaller size of mirrorless bodies is its biggest appeal.  To fully realize this benefit, one would then need to consider the size advantages of smaller EF-M (or even EF-S) lenses.  The total package will mean a sacrafice in image quality and creative control for the FF shooter.  But, it also offers a much bigger improvement in these areas over point-n-shoot alternatives for one seeking a "travel-light" option when bringing a FF kit is overkill or inconvenient. 

I purchased an SL1 for this reason.  I sometimes do want a smaller system for "grab shots", but the crop sensor is the smallest that I care to use and shutter lag of non-DSLR's annoy me.

Still, if the shutter lag issue can be improved, I would consider a FF mirrorless.  It has the potential of offering a relatively light system for hiking without sacraficing image quality for scenery -- and the potential to capture an image worthy of rather large wall decoration.
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ahsanford

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2017, 12:20:33 PM »
An oddly structured poll -- it seems to blend appeal of a specific form of the product yet greatly simplify inevitable truth that most of us (perhaps not the wildlifers or sports folks) in the next 10-15 years will be forced to mirrorless instead of SLR.

If it's inevitable that mirrorless will eventually replace what we shoot today, then what we choose in the poll -- the 'I would buy' statements -- becomes a blend of desire and necessity.  (Does the polar bear head south enticed by better chances at food, or is it headed south because the ice caps are melting?)

In other words, some of us will gleefully opt in to FF mirrorless -- possibly swayed by the mount decision, whether it can be made very small, whether we can use native lenses without adaptors, etc. -- while others will be forced into FF mirrorless because the next rev of the (say) 5D line won't have a mirror. These are two dramatically different buying groups -- one that will most certainly own one in the first 1-2 generations of FF mirrorless being offered, and the other may fight this market for over a decade.

- A

dpc

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2017, 12:41:38 PM »
I was on the cusp of buying the m3 a little over a year ago. They didn't have any in stock but did have a used Fujifilm X-T10 with the 18-55 kit lens at a great price. I bought that. I haven't regretted it. It's a great camera and the four lenses I have for it are excellent.  I'm intrigued by the m5 and m6 but won't buy them. They'd be redundant. As far as a FF mirrorless is concerned, I'd be interested but wouldn't buy one. I've got all the camera gear I need and, truthfully, more than I need.

Yeah if that Fuji works for you, why buy something else. You're right. Just buy the tool that works best for you and call it a day. With the M5, I'm in the same spot as you are. I'm not in need of anything "better" or different, it just works, and boy it works really well. I guess it will be my tool of choice for the next several years, same as your Fuji is the tool of choice for you. I'm glad that you've found your "love".


Well, I have two Fuji cameras and three Canon cameras. There's only so much gear a person needs and, apart from maybe upgrading from my 5D Mark ll, I figure enough is enough.

rfdesigner

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2017, 12:43:23 PM »
Personally I love the ability to pick up my camera, frame/focus the shot and decide if there's something there or not, all without having to wake the camera up...   just like I did in film days.

Get a mirrorless to do that with no lag and I'm sold  ::)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 12:45:26 PM by rfdesigner »
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Talys

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2017, 01:17:48 PM »
After thinking about it, this is actually pretty easy.  As soon as the live view and EVF are superior to OVF, I'll ditch OVF.  It is possible: if the density of the pixels exceeds my ability to discern pixels, the light sensitivity exceeds my eyes, and the lag is not discernable to my brain, I'd probably go mirrorless.

Looking at the present, the criteria basically has to be that especially in low light situations I need to be able to manually focus and compose as comfortably and effectively as I can with a top notch OVF, and it can't blow through batteries to power the body.

Looking down the future, mirrorless/no OVF would be awesome if the sensor could provide enhanced images, and non-visible spectrum; for example, infrared.  It would be very cool to be able to get 20MP+ images and video of wildlife in the dark, for example.  As a use case scenario, I would be prepared to light my back yard with infrared floods (which animals wouldn't see), and then use a 300mm lens to shoot fast pictures or video in near-darkness to film baby raccoons playing or owls chasing mice.

Also, if you think down the road where there's an order of magnitude more powerful processors and batteries, EVF has the potential to give a screen that is much bigger than OVF.  So, if "sky's the limit", a EVF could behave more like a AR/VR helmet, and show you *every*, highlighting a box around the image your taking.

The problem is that for me TODAY, EVF/Screen is a fun gizmo that is a handicap for photography in almost every meaningful way; certainly, the two most important metrics -- what I see, and how long batteries last.  When that changes and EVF/Screen can give me advantages other than good/interchangeable lens on a bigger point-and-shoot body, I'm there. 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 01:22:59 PM by Talys »

ahsanford

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2017, 01:28:29 PM »
After thinking about it, this is actually pretty easy...

Yep.  But the 'EVF is better / worse than an OVF' can be sliced a thousand ways depending on what you shoot and what you prioritize.  IMHO, it's more than just 'how laggy / big / high-res is it' before EVFs will take off.  Consider:

1) If you principally shoot indoor events/concerts, EVFs' ability to amplify light and focus peak at -4, -5 EV conditions (when AF tends to whiff) is better than an OVF right now.

2) If you shoot sports/wildlife, it's going to be a very long time before the EVF outclasses an OVF setup.

3) If you often need to switch from AF to MF lenses on the same body, an EVF / peaking setup will do more than an OVF setup as peaking just a button press away with an EVF.  The alternative of being able to use focusing screens in (some) SLRs is far more invasive/dedicated setup than the simplicity of a mirrorless button push.

Those are just three examples.  There are dozens more where the EVF might show its upsides over an OVF despite battery life, despite lag, etc.

Standard mirrorless disclosure:  I shoot an SLR and only shoot an SLR.  For all my talk, I'm no mirrorless fanboy so much as I respect mirrorless' inevitability (much as one might watch global warming slowly march forward).

- A
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 01:31:12 PM by ahsanford »

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2017, 01:28:29 PM »

scrup

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2017, 05:13:18 PM »
Looks like most would want a K-01 type camera. Look how well that camera did.

Just keep the mirror if you going to keep it EF mount.

jolyonralph

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2017, 06:32:36 PM »
I can't see the point in having anything except EF-M mount.

EF mount means you're stuck with EF lenses.

EF-M mount means you can get compact EF-M lenses, both crop and full-frame (in the future) and be able to use not just EF lenses, but Nikon lenses, old FD lenses, and pretty much any other lens you'd ever care to use with suitable adaptors.

Why cripple a mirrorless camera by enforcing a 30 year old mount on it?

However... I do think a future EF-M FF mirrorless camera should come bundled with an EF-EF-M adaptor.
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slclick

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2017, 07:23:22 PM »
I can't see the point in having anything except EF-M mount.

EF mount means you're stuck with EF lenses.

EF-M mount means you can get compact EF-M lenses, both crop and full-frame (in the future) and be able to use not just EF lenses, but Nikon lenses, old FD lenses, and pretty much any other lens you'd ever care to use with suitable adaptors.

Why cripple a mirrorless camera by enforcing a 30 year old mount on it?

However... I do think a future EF-M FF mirrorless camera should come bundled with an EF-EF-M adaptor.

That 30 year old mount connects the finest lineup of auto focusing lenses in existence. I don't see a problem.

ahsanford

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2017, 07:51:13 PM »
I still see this as too hard to call.  There are clear pros and cons to both sides of this argument, and not just for us but also for Canon. 

To me it's all a question of Canon letting this market define itself or if they are brave enough to define it: 

  • If they wait, it may have to be a thin mount because common-sense notwithstanding, thin will be the entrenched notion of the market.  (And it would likely be a fine product.)

  • If they are brave, they could come out sooner rather than later and sell the world on the seamlessness of a 2nd body that'd identical to their 5D in handling/size/controls, that mirrorless is more than just about size, that an EVF removes certain constraints and unlocks certain opportunities, etc.

And don't mistake my tone below as being one way or the other.  I've gone around and around on this and I have a hard time landing on an answer.  Both mounts offer opportunities and limitations.

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Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2017, 08:03:23 PM »
There have been rumors about Nikon FF mirrorless for many years now. We see no such thing.  What would be the reason for Canon to launch a FF mirrorless? To compete with Sony? What Canon needs is a better sensor and some fine tuning in their current FF DSLRs. Yet another form factor with its own lineup of lenses does not seem like a good idea economically.
Canon is driven by the bottom line and they know they are on a diminishing market where all camera makers are facing losses. They'd need a new approach to social media oriented mass products. There might still be some money to be made as everybody is vlogging and YouTubing. Now look at the GoPro flock, it is enormous! Look at the shaky, vertical pixelated stuff people post...now there I see a market.
Canon thinks "camera" they should think "audience".

You are thinking small potatos, Canon is thinking big - Very BIG!

Canon has announced their new approach to the drop in camera sales, and its not into a market where competition is so stiff that there are almost no profits. 

They spent billions to buy Axis, the big surveillance camera manufacturer which sells very expensive systems to the government, military, and big companies who can afford big bucks for security.  We are talking billions of dollars.

 "Canon Inc (7751.T) made a 23.6 billion-Swedish-crown ($2.83 billion) offer for network video surveillance leader Axis AB (AXIS.ST) on Tuesday -- the biggest purchase ever for the Japanese firm trying to expand beyond a shrinking camera market."  The deal will make Canon a top player in the video surveillance market, which was worth an estimated $15 billion at the end of last year, according to researcher IHS. Within that market, there is a $3.86 billion segment for network-connected security cameras which is led by Axis with a 17.5 percent share as of 2013.

Secondly, they are buying and expanding even more into the Medical Imaging  field, once again, high end, expensive products that are very profitable.  Hospitals with huge budgets for new products trust Canon because of their support.  They pay the price for quality and reliability. 
 "Under Phase V of its Excellent Global Corporation Plan, a five-year initiative launched in 2016, Canon aims to embrace the challenge of new growth through a grand strategic transformation. With regard to reinforcing and expanding new businesses in particular, which represents one of the important strategies to be carried out during this phase, Canon intends to cultivate its health care business within the safety and security sector as a next-generation pillar of growth.
   Toshiba Medical is one of the leading global companies in the medical equipment industry. Within the field of medical X-ray computed tomography (CT) systems in particular, Toshiba Medical is the overwhelming market share leader in Japan and has been steadily increasing its global market share. Additionally, Toshiba Medical is the only company in the industry with a broad product portfolio that spans diagnostic X-ray systems, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) systems, diagnostic ultrasound systems and diagnostic nuclear medicine systems. The company also offers cutting-edge medical imaging solutions and in-vitro diagnostics aimed at individualized care."
 
Third, industrial applications like machine vision where, once again, Canon can leverage their reputation to convince buyers to spend big bucks on Canon equipment.

Canon feels that these areas are growth markets, and so far they have been right. 

Canon is also creeping into the sensor market, and offering sensors for sale.  They do not seem to be diving in big time, so their intentions are not known.

dak723

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2017, 09:58:46 PM »
I can't see the point in having anything except EF-M mount.

The point might be image quality.  The shorter the flange distance, the more difficult it seems to be to have lenses that don't have major issues with corner and edge sharpness, CA and vignetting.  Even with the smaller APS-C size sensor, the EF-M mount has vignetting issues that are off-the-scale bad, based on lens testing.

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2017, 09:58:46 PM »

Don Haines

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2017, 10:07:41 PM »
I can't see the point in having anything except EF-M mount.

The point might be image quality.  The shorter the flange distance, the more difficult it seems to be to have lenses that don't have major issues with corner and edge sharpness, CA and vignetting.  Even with the smaller APS-C size sensor, the EF-M mount has vignetting issues that are off-the-scale bad, based on lens testing.

This is because the shorter the mount, the greater the angle that light will hit the sensor....
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jolyonralph

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2017, 04:50:49 AM »
This is because the shorter the mount, the greater the angle that light will hit the sensor....

Not totally correct.

This is ENTIRELY dependent on lens design.

An EF lens attached to an adaptor projects light onto the FF Mirrorless sensor in exactly the same way as it would do on a standard DSLR EF mount camera.

IF your new EF-M lens was to have the elements as far back as could physically fit then yes, there could be a problem (although a problem that Sony seem to have solved with FE lenses.)

But... there is also a middle ground.  A new FF EF-M lens could fit somewhere in the middle, ie have some gap between the rear elements and the mount, but still be closer to the sensor than an EF lens.   

Then it becomes an issue of working out the best combination of size/weight and optical performance that you can get for these lenses.   For many optical formulae there is likely to be a size/weight benefit to using EF glass while retaining excellent optical quality.

Using the EF-M mount gives you the flexibility to do this. Sticking to the EF mount might require new EF Mirrorless lenses that stick further into the body than EF-S does, but I think that's a less elegant solution than using EF-M mount.

Jolyon Ralph

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Re: Canon FF mirrorless Poll
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2017, 04:50:49 AM »