August 22, 2017, 11:19:17 AM

Author Topic: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer  (Read 50757 times)

Hflm

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #75 on: April 21, 2017, 05:51:21 AM »
I honestly don't understand this fetish with mirrorless cameras... especially one that screeches about ho Canon must jump on board immediately or die.

I'm extremely happy with my Canon gear, think it the bee's knees, and couldn't give a rat's behind about Sony or it's lineup.

In fact, I am so happy with Canon I just dropped $1,649 on an EF 35mm f/1.4 II USM that delivers tomorrow from Adorama.

Screw the Sony mirrorless fanboys and their insistence that only Sony is doing it right and that Canon is doomed.

Take the adapters you people use so that you can use Canon lenses and stick them where the sun don't shine. Once you do, peep up that big dark pixel.

----

Mirrorless is a big deal in the sense that there are less failure-prone mechanical parts, less vibration from the shutter assembly which MAY make for better/sharper photos AND the issue that high speed photography (i.e. higher FPS) is easier to do on Mirrorless camera systems.

I've personally used mirrorless longer than I have use mirrored cameras since my original background starts with the old Betacam SP-style video cameras where you paid a pretty penny for a fully electronic shutter (aka mirrorless). It was ALSO a big deal in that electronic shutters are/were better able to synchronize with the displays on a computer systems which can be 60 fps, 72 fps, 75 fps, 120 fps and even 240 fps which in my day was a major method of transferring digital imagery onto video without spending $25,000 US for a computer screen to NTSC/PAL/SECAM video system scan converter. We simply set the sync speed to the frame rate of the display and shot the screen directly to tape with a black cloth draped over the camera and computer display. I can tell you that more than a few Hollywood TV shows were transferred that way after offline/online non-linear editing to tape for speed-of-time reasons!

In terms of Canon OR Sony satisfying their fan base, BOTH companies seem to be converging on a common consumer bracket. Right now, Canon has the edge in pro stills photography where Sony rules the roost in Smartphone sensors (their biggest market by far!) and broadcast video gear.

I do see though Sony making significant inroads into stills and Mirrorless FF cameras because they are able to leverage the strength of the broadcast video side into a consumer, semi-pro and even pro-level stills camera system. So unless Canon ups their camera by adding MORE video features and better image quality for less end-user effort (i.e. a mirrorless) than they will be quite ground into the dust as Sony has a SIGNIFICANT technological edge because of their vastly larger broadcast video experience where they are in nearly EVERY TV station with their Cameras, switchers, disk servers, video routers, editors, projectors and more!

Sony is no small company and is in EVERY major electronic market from Video Game consoles, to smartphones to image sensors to home electronics and much more!
Canon is really just a copy, printer and industrial optics company dabbling in Cameras which are GREAT but not that much of a contributor to the bottom line as their printer/copier/optics divisions. Nikon, being part of the Mitsubishi Group keiretsu, has even BIGGER resources available to it! Nikon (aka part of Mitsubishi), being a 540 BILLION US DOLLAR company, absolutely DWARFS Sony and Canon COMBINED in term of available resources so if they wanted to, Nikon could obliterate Sony AND Canon in sheer research resources, financial and marketing power!

So as of today Canon is still king of the Stills Camera BUT Sony is catching up FAST and Nikon COULD but WON'T do what is necessary to BECOME king of the cameras!
Regarding Nikon and Mitsubishi from someone who knows a lot about Nikon:
http://www.dslrbodies.com/nikon/about-nikon/nikon-faq/is-nikon-a-subsidiary-of.html.
Quote:"But the basic answer is, no, Nikon is an independent company with its shares publicly traded on the Nikkei. "

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #75 on: April 21, 2017, 05:51:21 AM »

benkam

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #76 on: April 21, 2017, 08:35:10 AM »
What the hell, I just posted a response to neuroanatomist's smugness and it got deleted. Put it back!

unfocused

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #77 on: April 21, 2017, 08:49:47 AM »
At $1,000 more than a 5D IV and with Sony lenses generally overpriced in comparison to Canon and Nikon, I'm not seeing this as attracting much of a market outside of early adopting specs geeks.

benkam

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #78 on: April 21, 2017, 08:54:11 AM »
Ugh, here's a more succinct version because my earlier longer post was deleted.

Well, well, personal attacks are weak and stupid.

Ok, let's review my 'personal attacks':

I suggest you go look for some reality.  Trust me, it's out there...even if you can't perceive it.
So, your business degree is from Bob's Tackle Shop and School for Business and Stuff?  You should have checked their accreditation status before matriculating...
But maybe your goal is to look foolish, and in that case, congrats to you.

Now, let's review yours:

You're a smug, horrible person...

It's sad that you can't perceive the difference between being called out of touch with reality, looking foolish, and having credentials questioned...and being called a horrible person.  But on the positive side, you've effectively supported your statement that personal attacks are weak and stupid.  Well done.

LOL Thanks for posting the time-stamp of the comments. It's evident I was merely reacting to your personal attacks. I wouldn't have written that if you hadn't started anything. And here you still reek of smugness and it stinks.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #79 on: April 21, 2017, 09:16:29 AM »
Ugh, here's a more succinct version because my earlier longer post was deleted.

Did your more verbose response actually address any of the issues raised that demonstrate the fallacy of your contention that Canon is in dire straits unless they release a FF MILC on your personal timetable?  Or was it merely a rehash of your unsuppprted opinion peppered with more crude insults.  I suspect the latter, the former is likely beyond your capabilities. 
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #80 on: April 21, 2017, 09:17:29 AM »
In terms of Canon OR Sony satisfying their fan base, BOTH companies seem to be converging on a common consumer bracket. Right now, Canon has the edge in pro stills photography where Sony rules the roost in Smartphone sensors (their biggest market by far!) and broadcast video gear.

Careful...your bias is showing.  Canon 'has the edge' over Sony in pro still photography?  Sure, just like China has the edge over Zimbabwe in GDP.  ::)

Sony 'rules the roost' for broadcast video gear?  For heads, sure...but last time I checked, it was kinda hard to shoot broadcast footage with just a camera head.  Who 'rules the roost' for field lenses?  In the last Sony video catalog I looked through, all their cameras were mounted on DIGISUPER lenses, although Sony thoughtfully photoshopped out the Canon logos. 


Canon is really just a copy, printer and industrial optics company dabbling in Cameras which are GREAT but not that much of a contributor to the bottom line as their printer/copier/optics divisions. Nikon, being part of the Mitsubishi Group keiretsu, has even BIGGER resources available to it! Nikon (aka part of Mitsubishi), being a 540 BILLION US DOLLAR company, absolutely DWARFS Sony and Canon COMBINED in term of available resources so if they wanted to, Nikon could obliterate Sony AND Canon in sheer research resources, financial and marketing power!

Ahhh, yet another armchair business expert.  How do Wharton and HBS manage to stay afloat with all of you out there?  It seems you don't understand how a keiretsu functions.  Suffice it to say that Nikon does not have the resources of the Mitsubishi Group at their beck and call.

Did you forget to take your pills again this morning? Why don't you stick a post-it on your fridge's door to remind you!

Oh, and why don't you business expert again elaborate on how companies are legally forced to make profit? This was a wonderful laugh...

Oh, you mean the discussion where you failed to prove anything, then resorted to calling me names, exemplifying behavior typical of a petulant child?  That wasn't laughable, just rather sad.   ::)

In this case, your post implies that I'm incorrect – in which case, you appear to agree that Nikon does have access to the full resources of the Mitsubishi Group, and thus, "..if they wanted to, Nikon could obliterate Sony and Canon in sheer research resources, financial and marketing power.

If your intent is for people to find you laughable, you're succeeding.  If you have different intentions, you should probably quit while you're behind.  Or you could try calling me names again...much like benkam you seem to have an aptitude for that, if little else. 
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benkam

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #81 on: April 21, 2017, 09:24:21 AM »
Ugh, here's a more succinct version because my earlier longer post was deleted.

Did your more verbose response actually address any of the issues raised that demonstrate the fallacy of your contention that Canon is in dire straits unless they release a FF MILC on your personal timetable?  Or was it merely a rehash of your unsuppprted opinion peppered with more crude insults.  I suspect the latter, the former is likely beyond your capabilities.

Woooo. You mean your rehashed opinion you're passing off as fact and evidence for your own version of the future. Whatever, Your Smugness, your opinion is of zero value to me.

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #81 on: April 21, 2017, 09:24:21 AM »

Luds34

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #82 on: April 21, 2017, 09:27:07 AM »
At $1,000 more than a 5D IV and with Sony lenses generally overpriced in comparison to Canon and Nikon, I'm not seeing this as attracting much of a market outside of early adopting specs geeks.

And those with an "above average" disposable income. ;)

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #83 on: April 21, 2017, 09:42:28 AM »
Ugh, here's a more succinct version because my earlier longer post was deleted.

Did your more verbose response actually address any of the issues raised that demonstrate the fallacy of your contention that Canon is in dire straits unless they release a FF MILC on your personal timetable?  Or was it merely a rehash of your unsuppprted opinion peppered with more crude insults.  I suspect the latter, the former is likely beyond your capabilities.

Woooo. You mean your rehashed opinion you're passing off as fact and evidence for your own version of the future. Whatever, Your Smugness, your opinion is of zero value to me.

As expected, you can't formulate and express a cogent counterargumenrt, so instead you'll provide another example of petulant, childish behavior by taking your marbles and running home (but not without tossing out another insult).  How sad.
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benkam

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #84 on: April 21, 2017, 09:47:44 AM »
Ugh, here's a more succinct version because my earlier longer post was deleted.

Did your more verbose response actually address any of the issues raised that demonstrate the fallacy of your contention that Canon is in dire straits unless they release a FF MILC on your personal timetable?  Or was it merely a rehash of your unsuppprted opinion peppered with more crude insults.  I suspect the latter, the former is likely beyond your capabilities.

Woooo. You mean your rehashed opinion you're passing off as fact and evidence for your own version of the future. Whatever, Your Smugness, your opinion is of zero value to me.

As expected, you can't formulate and express a cogent counterargumenrt, so instead you'll provide another example of petulant, childish behavior by taking your marbles and running home (but not without tossing out another insult).  How sad.

A "cogent" response to your smugness? You start with the personal attacks, this is exactly what you deserve.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #85 on: April 21, 2017, 10:05:34 AM »
A "cogent" response to your smugness? You start with the personal attacks, this is exactly what you deserve.

I don't 'deserve' anything.  If you want to post a topic making a claim, and are subsequently unable to defend that claim against logical arguments and evidence, that's your problem (one of many, I'm sure), not mine.

But since your are evidently unable to do anything but repetitively toss out the same meaningless insult, you've at least made it clear that there's no point in further discussion (not that logic and evidence countered by petulant name calling actually constitutes a discussion).  Enjoy your day.
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ahsanford

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #86 on: April 21, 2017, 10:07:21 AM »
At $1,000 more than a 5D IV and with Sony lenses generally overpriced in comparison to Canon and Nikon, I'm not seeing this as attracting much of a market outside of early adopting specs geeks.

Agree with you on the value proposition, but the A9's 20 fps, 1/32000 shutter, no EVF blackout, etc. says that that Sony is actually attempting to undercut the 1DX2/D5 sports/wildlife crowd more than it is trying to get higher dollars over the 5D4.  Sure, Sony lacks the long glass, a bomb-proof build quality and an integral grip, but hey, reason never stopped them before.  :D

FWIW, I believe that Sony believes the A7 platform acquits itself quite nicely vs. the 5D line.

- A

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2017, 10:14:29 AM »
At $1,000 more than a 5D IV and with Sony lenses generally overpriced in comparison to Canon and Nikon, I'm not seeing this as attracting much of a market outside of early adopting specs geeks.

Agree with you on the value proposition, but the A9's 20 fps, 1/32000 shutter, no EVF blackout, etc. says that that Sony is actually attempting to undercut the 1DX2/D5 sports/wildlife crowd more than it is trying to get higher dollars over the 5D4.  Sure, Sony lacks the long glass, a bomb-proof build quality and an integral grip, but hey, reason never stopped them before.  :D

Agreed – on both counts. 

I wonder what DPR will conclude about the a9's AF tracking compared to Nikon's D5 automagical prognosticating 4D designed-by-God AF tracking system. 
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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2017, 10:14:29 AM »

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2017, 10:23:22 AM »
20 fps with 24MP sensor
blackout-free EVF
fully silent, vibration-free operation
5-axis in-body IS
693 AF points
AF joystick
2.2X bigger battery than A7-series
dual UHS-II SD slots
among other new features

$4500, priced just above the 5D4 and well below the 1DX2

dubious weathersealing.  the ports certainly don't appear sealed at all.
dubious support.  they will finally have walk in centers. will they have parts?
no telephotos or pro lens over 200mm really unless you think a 100-400 3.5-5.6 is it)
fully electronic shutter for most shooting modes only 5fps if you use an actual mechanical shutter.  light fllicker, fast action - who knows what kind of influence that will have.
still a small fiddly ergonomic nightmare.  can you see pros with thick heavy gloves at the side of superbowl shooting with this?

ps .. the 1DX Mark II is 16 fps - and is built like a brick and built to survive rough environments.  the D5 is a completely awesome machine as well.  no one is going to give up those two machines for an A9.

the EVF was very cool though. you really couldn't tell you were shooting unless you looked at the shot counter.

also how well will this perform with long fast lenses in dimmer light? major defocus and low contrast AF has been very hard on the A7 series cameras. anything over 85mm in dim light can be a no-go.

also - if this is entirely with E-shutter, that means you are always shooting stopped down.  need more DOF? well, too bad, you'll take an AF hit.

Trusting sony specs always is a losing bet.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 10:32:57 AM by rrcphoto »

rrcphoto

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2017, 10:29:04 AM »
At $1,000 more than a 5D IV and with Sony lenses generally overpriced in comparison to Canon and Nikon, I'm not seeing this as attracting much of a market outside of early adopting specs geeks.

Agree with you on the value proposition, but the A9's 20 fps, 1/32000 shutter, no EVF blackout, etc. says that that Sony is actually attempting to undercut the 1DX2/D5 sports/wildlife crowd more than it is trying to get higher dollars over the 5D4.  Sure, Sony lacks the long glass, a bomb-proof build quality and an integral grip, but hey, reason never stopped them before.  :D

FWIW, I believe that Sony believes the A7 platform acquits itself quite nicely vs. the 5D line.

- A

if you go by specs.  but then again the lack of true weathersealing aka OM or 1DX / D5,etc will turn off many.

also how well will an electronic shutter do for fast action? or flickering gym lights?

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Re: Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2017, 10:29:04 AM »