August 20, 2017, 03:45:07 PM

Author Topic: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]  (Read 8074 times)

mb66energy

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2017, 04:29:30 AM »
In my opinion BR is helpful for HIGH APERTURE WIDE ANGLE lenses but not effective and/or efficient for tele lenses.
What do you mean by "high" aperture. Did you mean "large", as in f/1.4, or did you mean high aperture as in high f-number, like f/16? I don't know much about BR (other than it is what they used in the 35L II).

This was bad "translative thinking" - in germany Hoch / high means "wide open" for optics. Sorry for that - I mean large.

One property of glass and other optical media is that they have different refractive capability for different light colors (wavelengths). A single lens optics always provides different focal planes for different colors resulting in colored edges of details in the image (chromatic aberration). A simple countermeasure is to combine two lenses with different "color behaviour": one lens counteracts the chromatic aberration of the other.
As always in (material) physics: You are limited by the available types of optical glass - the BR material is an organic material which introduces additional possibilities because it has a totally different "color behavior" compared to existing materials. This CAN be helpful in a lens design but it is not THE solution for ALL problems.

About the price: 2x the 1.8 85 + 500 ($, EUR) for the IS group of a large aperture lens + 100EUR for "it's a new/unique spec combination" ... resulting in 1200 ... 1300 $/EUR ... just a guess.

I think it will be higher. My guess is 3x the 85/1.8 + 500, resulting in about $1600-$1700, but even then it would be priced similar to the competition pricing for 85 f/1.4 with no IS.

Nikon 85/1.4 : $1600
Sony 85/1.4 GM : $1800
Sigma 85/1.4A : $1200

I don't think it will be priced like the Sigma. Canon "can" sell it for much higher if the quality is superb. The 35L II is about twice the price of Sigma 35 Art (1700 vs 900)

I am interested to know why do you guys think it won't be priced over $1500?

I think it is much easier to design a very good light tele lens compared to a wide angle lens. A highlarge aperture wide angle @35mm must be a strong retrofocus construction involving a lot of elements and strong "bending of light". An 85mm large aperture lens profits from the fact that the focal length is much higher than the depth of the mirror box where no lens elements have to be.

Another reason is that Canon has to be competitive against Sigma / Zeiss / Nikon (1.4 100) / Tamron (1.8 85 stabilized) because Canon lenses are a primary reason to stay with Canon for a lot of people (besides ergonomics + support).
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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2017, 04:29:30 AM »

Yasko

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2017, 06:10:33 AM »
no mention of blue spectrum refractive optics, huh?

May be due to the focal length. Chromatic aberrations increase when the field of view increases, so wider prime lenses typically (not necessarily) suffer more from chromatic aberrations than longer ones. Thus, this might be a feature which will predominantly be implemented into wider focal length prime & zoom lenses. Actually the 24-70 mk II does not have this specific feature, does it?
I thought the 35L USM II was the first one to bring us blue refractive optics (in other terms just a more dispersive element).
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 06:12:47 AM by Yasko »

Viggo

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2017, 06:38:53 AM »
I, for one, certainly hope this will not sit between the f1.8 and the 1.2 qualitywise. I hope this will be like the 35 L II, absolutely stellar in every way. I think this will be a 2000 dollar lens for sure.
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jebrady03

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2017, 06:53:32 AM »
In my opinion BR is helpful for HIGH APERTURE WIDE ANGLE lenses but not effective and/or efficient for tele lenses.
What do you mean by "high" aperture. Did you mean "large", as in f/1.4, or did you mean high aperture as in high f-number, like f/16? I don't know much about BR (other than it is what they used in the 35L II).

High and large are interchangeable, although in American-English "high" is an unusual choice of words, because aperture is a fraction where "f" is the focal length. So aperture should be written f/#. So with large aperture lenses, the number is higher.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2017, 07:55:26 AM »
no mention of blue spectrum refractive optics, huh?

May be due to the focal length. Chromatic aberrations increase when the field of view increases, so wider prime lenses typically (not necessarily) suffer more from chromatic aberrations than longer ones.

Both Canon 85mm primes suffer from pretty bad longitudinal CA. 
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SecureGSM

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2017, 09:05:18 AM »
Sigma 85 Art is not any better in that regard. Plenty of CA wide open but easy to correct.  It is interesting how some posts on this page suggest that 85mm primes are easier to design than 35mm ones. 85mm primes are much larger that 35mm primes. That's for reason.

no mention of blue spectrum refractive optics, huh?

May be due to the focal length. Chromatic aberrations increase when the field of view increases, so wider prime lenses typically (not necessarily) suffer more from chromatic aberrations than longer ones.

Both Canon 85mm primes suffer from pretty bad longitudinal CA.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 09:24:41 AM by SecureGSM »

Mika

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2017, 09:45:18 AM »
There's been some discussion on the optical design of the objective in this thread. I'm an actual optical designer, but not involved with Canon in any other way than that I just happened to select Canon's camera (20D) in 2006 and have been on that path ever since.

The most straight-forward objective type to design is the normal focal length, that is to say, objective focal length is approximately the same as the sensor diagonal (43.2 mm in full-frame). No doubt you can make it harder with some extra requirements like macro and low F-number, but typically this tends to work out so.

Telephotos are easier in a sense you typically need less elements and aspheres (barring telephoto zooms that can become quite complex), but the difficulty lies in the material requirements and centering tolerances. Two typical aberrations to combat against are spherical aberration and longitudal color; that's where calcium fluoride comes in to play. The focusing mechanism is also occasionally difficult as the mass moving should be minimized, and this is not easy to do always. Telephoto is a bit more stringent in the mechanics and assembly, but somewhat more easier to design optically.

Rectilinear wide-angles are demanding in a sense that there's usually no-avoiding aspheres, and the shorter the focal length, the harder it gets to correct for the distortion. Add in lateral color correction, and ultra-wide primes can become very challenging to design and require a lot of design and optimization time. Ultra-wide zooms are then another tale to tell.

However, the departure from 50 mm to 35 mm or 85 mm is not yet massive. These are still relatively normal focal lengths where the other requires a bit more positive power in front of the aperture stop, and the other a bit more negative.

I do believe the EF85/1.4 IS will be more expensive than EF85/1.2 II. I'm guessing 1.5x - 2x the current objective price. The reason lies in the image stabilizer; 85 mm objective at F/1.4 with a stabilizer is no easy feat, specifically if Canon is upgrading the objective resolution - which they'll likely do. Hopefully the its bokeh remains good, that seems to suffer with stabilized objectives. It does make me wonder whether EF85/1.4 IS is going to be focus by wire. Whether 85/1.4 includes BR remains to be seen.

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2017, 09:45:18 AM »

IglooEater

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2017, 11:12:58 AM »
So much talk of the Blue Refractive optics.  Has Canon advertised it in any other lens than the 35mm 1.4L?  I can't recall any mention of it.  Canon certainly succeeded in their marketing of that one  aspect/feature...  other stellar lenses have come out since without any mention of BR

BeenThere

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2017, 11:57:55 AM »
So much talk of the Blue Refractive optics.  Has Canon advertised it in any other lens than the 35mm 1.4L?  I can't recall any mention of it.  Canon certainly succeeded in their marketing of that one  aspect/feature...  other stellar lenses have come out since without any mention of BR
Some information on Canon's BR and where they use it:

https://petapixel.com/2016/03/10/canons-new-blue-spectrum-refractive-lens-technology-works/

jolyonralph

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2017, 01:47:23 PM »
Can I just note that the lens has a 'fluorine' coating, not a 'flourine' coating. At least I hope it's not coated in flour.

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tianxiaozhang

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2017, 02:35:12 PM »
I think the price will be around $1,000. I certainly don't think it's going to be north of $1,500

That would be ideal... I'd probably go for one on day 1...

BeenThere

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2017, 02:47:57 PM »
If it's optically stellar, and why would they release an L lens that isn't, then I would say ~$2K is in the cards. 🤑

Act444

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2017, 04:18:04 PM »
Looking at the prices of the other 85 1.4s, I think such a lens from Canon will be AT LEAST $2K - especially since IS is being rumored. If it can match or come real close to the performance of the Sigma 85 Art though, I think it will be worth every penny.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 04:41:45 PM by Act444 »

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2017, 04:18:04 PM »

jolyonralph

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2017, 05:27:43 PM »
At the end of the day it all comes down to image quality.  The 35mm f/1.4 II justified its cost by it's incredible performance over the older lens. Ditto with the 100-400 II.

But, we don't have anything directly comparable - we can't really compare with either the 85mm 1.8 or the 85mm 1.2 as neither are really the same thing.

If canon can come out with an 85mm with stellar performance then I'm sure they'll price it as high as they absolutely dare.

But, I'm not so optimistic. If it's just good enough, better than the 85 1.8 (which isn't hard) and maybe comparable to the Sigma 85, albeit with VR, then it's unlikely to be priced higher than the 1.2, which will remain the specialist portrait lens.

After the 24-105 II and the 6D II, I'm not convinced that "highest quality regardless of the price" is on the agenda.

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YuengLinger

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2017, 05:35:40 PM »
$2199 USD when first released.  And for a year or so after.  Save up.

Just guessing.

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Re: Some Information About the EF 85mm f/1.4L IS [CR3]
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2017, 05:35:40 PM »