May 24, 2018, 06:41:13 AM

Author Topic: Official release of Nikon D850  (Read 64403 times)

Larsskv

  • EOS 7D Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 538
  • Enthusiast with Canon related GAS
Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2017, 02:28:17 AM »
The D850 seems to be a great camera, and I would be very tempted if it was a Canon. However, I don't see why 5DIV users envy the D850 so much that switching is considered. Few of the the spec advantages the D850 has over the 5DIV will make a positive difference in real world use. The higher resolution will result in more noise at higher ISO, more storage requirements , slower editing and a demand for sharper lenses. The 30 megapixels in the 5DIV seems just about perfect.

The only thing I really envy about the D850 is the larger viewfinder, but then again, the one in the 1DX/1DXII is even larger.

Canon ergonomics, user interface and lenses are the major differentiators to me. Small differences in specs doesn't matter much in everyday use.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 03:16:07 AM by Larsskv »

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2017, 02:28:17 AM »

Mikehit

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2465
Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2017, 03:42:42 AM »

But it's the sensor tech that gets to me. How is it that the 5DIV is still not on par with the D800 & D810? Don't get me wrong, its a brilliant piece of kit but it'll lurk in the massive shadow cast by the D850 for the rest of its lifetime.

All those little bits and bobs...wi-fi, nfc, swivel screens etc etc are secondary to me and I never do video with my DSLRs but when looking in totality at Canon cameras, the compromises are felt by the average Canon user and its becoming an unsatisfactory trend that leaves us looking at other brands in envy

The sensor is one area where Canon have been behind for years, and this only because they insist on developing their own sensors whereas Nikon buy them in. Would Canon have matched SoNikon if they had spent the R&D on developing DR route instead of dual pixel? Maybe, but ironically, the dual pixel focus is widely praised in video - the very function that people slam Canon for.

But exactly how far behind are Canon sensors, even with DPAF? 3 or 4 years ago people were comparing a 2-3 stop shadow lift as to how far beind Canon were and that was a reasonable comparison. Now Canon have caught that up so they have to push it 6 stops to show any difference. How relevant is that to the market - specialist users maybe, but in general....? But I have to say whenever anyone who has shown a 6 stop lift and said 'look at that!' I have not once seen one where I would keep it or (if I were a pro) even think of selling it. So how important is a 6-stop lift in reality?

I am sure some people will push Canon to the limit and want full 4K or want a 6 stop lift so switch to Sony. But equally some people will want high performing AF for birds in flight and go from Sony to Canon. A lot of people will own both to cover all bases.

I can fully understand the disappointment with the 6D2 specs and that may have an impact beyond sales of the 6D2, but a few people are talking about switching to Canon not because Canon is failing them but because the spec sheet says Canon do not care and they are 'taking it easy'. It seems to me an odd reason to want to change systems.

Mancubus

  • EOS Rebel T7i
  • ****
  • Posts: 139
Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2017, 04:51:35 AM »
The D850 seems to be a great camera, and I would be very tempted if it was a Canon. However, I don't see why 5DIV users envy the D850 so much that switching is considered. Few of the the spec advantages the D850 has over the 5DIV will make a positive difference in real world use. The higher resolution will result in more noise at higher ISO, more storage requirements , slower editing and a demand for sharper lenses. The 30 megapixels in the 5DIV seems just about perfect.

The only thing I really envy about the D850 is the larger viewfinder, but then again, the one in the 1DX/1DXII is even larger.

Canon ergonomics, user interface and lenses are the major differentiators to me. Small differences in specs doesn't matter much in everyday use.

Let's put it this way: Canon released a 5D4 which loses in resolution, sharpness (damn AA filter) and dynamic range to a D800E from 2012!!

I am a Canon user, of course I'm upset. I use a 5D3 which I really like, but it's beaten up and I simply can't justify dropping the price of a new 5D4 which is better but nowhere near what the other brands offer.

I can still do my job with my 5D3, but can't we at least have a choice of a superior camera that isn't crippled? Why not give us a choice on the AA filter? Why not a BSI sensor? Why not get rid of the ancient SD slot?

I wouldn't complain about the 5D4 if it was $2500, but the D850 steamrolls over it and with a lower price tag!

Canon has better glass it's true, but Nikon has been releasing some very good new lenses lately, I don't think I would be short on choices. Canon on the other hand has no good 50mm 1.4 and no stabilised 24-70 2.8.


foo

  • EOS Rebel SL2
  • ***
  • Posts: 76
Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2017, 05:23:13 AM »
It's a bit early to predict the demise of Cfast. Canon isn't the only manufacturer using the cards. Adding Cfast to a 7D would help grow the market.

That's a bit too narrow a viewpoint, original CF is still around largely due to industrial uses rather than cameras and that means it's going to take quite some time to finally die off.  SD has a set of industrial users too, but is likely largely smartphone users keeping it going.
CFast and XQD are different in that they don't have the massive installed base of non-camera users to help.

However as with CF being based on the PC industries IDE which is long dead, CFast is based on SATA which ceased development 5/6 years ago in favour of SATAexpress using PCIe and NVMe, so CFast won't progress from where it is as a different connector would be required.
(it's not even clear if the PC industry will ever actually use SATAexpress, they seem to have largely skipped it in favour of a different connector as SSD speeds grow)

CFexpress is headed in the same direction as other large users of the technology in PC and other industries - PCIe & NVMe.  So cameras using the same technology get the benefits of scale including lower costs and other industries helping to drive improvements.

In the wider context, trying to grow the CFast market might not be the best idea.

foo

  • EOS Rebel SL2
  • ***
  • Posts: 76
Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2017, 05:35:53 AM »
But now I have used CFast with a thunderbolt card reader damn am I sold! The workflow is so much faster it is ridiculous.
If you thought that was good, you're going to love the next evolution.  NVMe (in CFexpress) has the potential to be orders of magnitude faster. It's available today in m.2 format for PC's and just needs a better/more robust form-factor suitable for a camera.

As for CFast's demise, well XQD has already effectively died so what choices are there now? And let's not forget there are a lot of video cameras out there that use them and those users aren't going away.
All of the existing card types will stay around for some time, but I'd argue that cards that are largely restricted to cameras will disappear quicker than ones with a much wider set of users.  Simple economy of scale at work. 

snoke

  • EOS M5
  • ****
  • Posts: 203
Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2017, 05:38:24 AM »
I was lukewarm about CFast in the 1DX MkII, I hate mixed slots and would far rather one or the other, I wish Canon had done a Nikon and offered two versions one with dual CF and one with dual CFast slots. But now I have used CFast with a thunderbolt card reader damn am I sold! The workflow is so much faster it is ridiculous.

But CF investment useless! Hear the cry everyone on CR. If Canon make 2xCFast and 2xCF, you buy 2xCFast or 2xCF? I think you buy 2xCF and keep old cards working, yes? And then you would never know about CFast speed :(

Absolutely you right about performance. 1000%.

Along with the D500, Nikon has now put some distance between itself and Canon's offerings with the D850.

I'm not moving from Canon as a) I've heavily invested in it financially and b) I believe it to be the best system for macro photography but I have to be honest and say that I am envious of the strides other manufacturers are making with their camera bodies.

Performance wise, Canons are less than when it comes to tracking (I think Nikon's 3D is better) and for what may be the best part of 6 years, sensor performance.
Yes, I fully believe Canon's lenses are better than Nikon's are overall but the 6Dii and 5Div seem very tame and limp versus their Nikon counterparts.

Yes! Agree!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 06:02:16 AM by snoke »

Larsskv

  • EOS 7D Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 538
  • Enthusiast with Canon related GAS
Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2017, 05:44:26 AM »
The D850 seems to be a great camera, and I would be very tempted if it was a Canon. However, I don't see why 5DIV users envy the D850 so much that switching is considered. Few of the the spec advantages the D850 has over the 5DIV will make a positive difference in real world use. The higher resolution will result in more noise at higher ISO, more storage requirements , slower editing and a demand for sharper lenses. The 30 megapixels in the 5DIV seems just about perfect.

The only thing I really envy about the D850 is the larger viewfinder, but then again, the one in the 1DX/1DXII is even larger.

Canon ergonomics, user interface and lenses are the major differentiators to me. Small differences in specs doesn't matter much in everyday use.

Let's put it this way: Canon released a 5D4 which loses in resolution, sharpness (damn AA filter) and dynamic range to a D800E from 2012!!

I am a Canon user, of course I'm upset. I use a 5D3 which I really like, but it's beaten up and I simply can't justify dropping the price of a new 5D4 which is better but nowhere near what the other brands offer.

I can still do my job with my 5D3, but can't we at least have a choice of a superior camera that isn't crippled? Why not give us a choice on the AA filter? Why not a BSI sensor? Why not get rid of the ancient SD slot?

I wouldn't complain about the 5D4 if it was $2500, but the D850 steamrolls over it and with a lower price tag!

Canon has better glass it's true, but Nikon has been releasing some very good new lenses lately, I don't think I would be short on choices. Canon on the other hand has no good 50mm 1.4 and no stabilised 24-70 2.8.

The 5DIV has some advantages over much of the competition, most notably the dual pixel AF, ergonomics, user interface and lenses. If you want more resolution, get the 5Dsr.

But you said it yourself. You really like your 5DIII. That is because it is a very well thought out camera. I will assume that you don't like it very much because of it's specs, but for how it handles everything well. That undefinable quality is a major Canon strength.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2017, 05:44:26 AM »

snoke

  • EOS M5
  • ****
  • Posts: 203
Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2017, 06:01:29 AM »
It looks like it is cheaper than the 5D4 but is $200 really that significant?

How much beer you buy for $200?

Price of D850 + memory cards = price of 5D4
etc.

Do I wish the 5D4 were $200 less? Sure. But why stop at $200 - why not £400, or $1,000. In which case the D850 is overpriced.

If the price difference is not enough to make people switch, it is insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Then ask who is target market for D850/5D4?
Upgraders? (same brand, more expensive camera)
Refreshers? (same brand, new model)
Defectors? (change brand)

Canon owners only have APS-C lens for APS-C camera biggest risk for Canon. Move to FF, need new lens too. Time to reconsider brand. Maybe.

Lots APS-C owners. Lots.

Big problem for Canon owners is cheaper camera have better numbers. Make good 2nd hand price difficult. Psychological problem in Canon buyer/owner mind. Nothing more.

Before announcement, posts expect high price than 5D4. Now low price. If not own Nikon, why care?

Maybe Nikon want entice more Canon/Sony owner with only APS-C camera and APS-C lens with lower price camera.

Maybe just cheaper for Nikon to make = cheaper price for camera.

Or maybe exchange rate. How prices look in JPY?

Mikehit

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2465
Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2017, 06:26:18 AM »
I think these brand updates are aimed at giving people within the brand an upgrade path, and anyone who goes from 5D3 to 5D4 or from D810 to D850 is a bonus. Sometimes just upgrading functions with no realistic improvement in sensor is an upgrade - and all manufacturers do it at some point.
The minimum you need to do is to make sure that, in its entirety, no particular feature falls so far behind the competition that people are ready to switch (some always will, but they should be a small minority). Some on this forum take this to mean that Canon is resting on its laurels and getting lazy, and if you look only at DR sensor they will be right. But I see Canon prioritising other developments.   

But my basic premise still stands and no-one has proved it to be false. The performance of the Sony A7/Ar7/A9, the Nikon D810/D850/D5 and 6D2/5D4/1DX2 are so close in performance as to make next to no difference in the real world, for a vast majority of people. Yes, some people need the little extra that Sony may offer but they are very, very few.

I don't understand what you mean by

Quote
Canon owners only have APS-C lens for APS-C camera biggest risk for Canon.
They can use L lenses on their APS-C body before investing in the body.

snoke

  • EOS M5
  • ****
  • Posts: 203
Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2017, 06:33:26 AM »
I don't understand what you mean by

Quote
Canon owners only have APS-C lens for APS-C camera biggest risk for Canon.
They can use L lenses on their APS-C body before investing in the body.

Canon like APS-C owner have FF lens but not required and more $$. Nikon like it too. But.

Consumer buy cheaper 80D or 700D camera so consumer buy cheaper lens too.

For consumer, no investment, just expense.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 06:37:19 AM by snoke »

Mikehit

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2465
Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2017, 06:36:54 AM »
I don't understand what you mean by

Quote
Canon owners only have APS-C lens for APS-C camera biggest risk for Canon.
They can use L lenses on their APS-C body before investing in the body.

Canon like APS-C owner have FF lens but not required and more $$.

I buy cheaper 80D or 700D camera so I buy cheaper lens too.

For consumer, no investment, just expense.
I still don't follow. Every investment is an expense by definition.
What do other manufacturers do that you think Canon should do?

snoke

  • EOS M5
  • ****
  • Posts: 203
Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2017, 06:44:55 AM »
I still don't follow. Every investment is an expense by definition.

But not all expense is investment. Not equal relationship. Expense subset is investment.

Is car investment?
Is TV investment?
Is fridge investment?
Is phone investment?
Is computer investment?

Nobody buy TV for investment. Only special car investment. Nobody buy fridge for investment. Camera and lens like all above for consumer. Expense.

Mikehit

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2465
Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2017, 07:07:54 AM »
I still don't follow. Every investment is an expense by definition.

But not all expense is investment. Not equal relationship. Expense subset is investment.

Is car investment?
Is TV investment?
Is fridge investment?
Is phone investment?
Is computer investment?

Nobody buy TV for investment. Only special car investment. Nobody buy fridge for investment. Camera and lens like all above for consumer. Expense.

Who said that investment is purely in cash? You buy a L lens because of better image quality - is that not an investment return?

But to repeat my request - what do other manufacturers do that you want Canon to do? 

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2017, 07:07:54 AM »

Sabaki

  • EOS 5DS R
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2017, 07:24:15 AM »

The 5DIV has some advantages over much of the competition, most notably the dual pixel AF, ergonomics, user interface and lenses. If you want more resolution, get the 5Dsr.
[/quote]

Here's part of my argument too

The D850 alone is cheaper than the 5Div. But to get what the D850 offers, one has to buy both the 5Div and the 5DSR to compliment it's feature set.

The D850 does AF at speed while offering similar resolution to the 5DSR. Guys, we are on the losing end here

It has been mentioned elsewhere on this post but had the D850 been the Canon 8D, we would've been over the moon with joy.
Canon EOS 6D | Canon EOS 7D mkII | Canon EF 16-35mmL f/4.0 IS | Canon 24-70mmL f/2.8 II | Canon 70-200mmL f/4.0 IS | Canon TS-E 24mmL f3.5 | Canon 50mm f/1.8 | Canon 100mmL | Canon 400 f/5.6 | Canon MP-E65

snoke

  • EOS M5
  • ****
  • Posts: 203
Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2017, 07:29:17 AM »
Who said that investment is purely in cash? You buy a L lens because of better image quality - is that not an investment return?

If image gets better price, yes :)

Emotional investment what you speak of. Intangible. Good for Canon if consumer make this investment because harder consumer to change. If consumer have Ford car history, not so easy buy GM. Same same. Emotional attachment.

Quote
But to repeat my request - what do other manufacturers do that you want Canon to do?

More aggressive product.

Canon product strategy sleepy. Nikon/Sony exciting.

It has been mentioned elsewhere on this post but had the D850 been the Canon 8D, we would've been over the moon with joy.

Disagree. 5Ds, 5DsR, 5D4 owners all complain about investment in camera because now less.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 07:35:59 AM by snoke »

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Official release of Nikon D850
« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2017, 07:29:17 AM »