November 22, 2017, 01:02:51 AM

Author Topic: Diffusing and using Gels with a 600EX?  (Read 4264 times)

LDS

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Re: Diffusing and using Gels with a 600EX?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2017, 09:55:45 AM »
unless the speedlite is 360Ws powerful. Introducing GODOX AD360 II  ;)

High-power barebulb flashes have been available for a while. Sunpak, Norman, Lumedyne, Quantum QFlash have been available for years (and IMHO the latter inspired the Godox). IIRC the Sunpak used AA/C batteries, the others use external batteries to allow for more powerful units.

After all they resemble the flashbulb devices which were still used until not long ago when high power were required, and battery-powered high-power flash units were not available. IIRC, my Canon A-1 manual still reported the FP sync speed...
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 11:20:38 AM by LDS »

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Re: Diffusing and using Gels with a 600EX?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2017, 09:55:45 AM »

SecureGSM

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Re: Diffusing and using Gels with a 600EX?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2017, 11:13:01 AM »
yes, all fair points. Profoto B2 is another great example of powerful portable on-location flash unit.
Godox 360Ws portable flash works great for on location shooting with a large softbox ( 1.2m - 2.0m in diameter) with plenty juice to overpower the afternoon sun. Godox radio enabled barebulb flashes are well built, light, capable and may serve as inexpensive alternative to Profoto B2 range if very slight colour variation from shot to shot was acceptable (+/- 50K). in studio,  I use AD360 II as a hair light with key and fill lights being a pair of Godox AD600BM battery powered strobes. the entire setup works flawlessly as a system and saved me literally a package. my other portable flash is Godox 685c radio controlled speedlite that is light enough to be used as on camera flash when I run and gun and conditions permit bouncing or shooting into the Neewer 16" round flash diffuser.

High-power barebulb flashes have been available for a while. Sunpak, Lumedyne, Quantum QFlash have been available for years (and IMHO the latter inspired the Godox). IIRC the Sunpak used AA/C batteries, the others use external batteries to allow for more powerful units.

After all they resemble the flashbulb devices which were still used until not long ago when high power were required, and battery-powered high-power flash units were not available. IIRC, my Canon A-1 manual still reported the FP sync speed...

SteveM

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Re: Diffusing and using Gels with a 600EX?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2017, 07:02:21 PM »
There is no right answer. For the cost of the modifiers, buy a Stofen and a Softbox and see which you like under which conditions, experiment. I shoot a lot of crowded public events where my general choices are the Stofen (small size and fits in a pocket) and the very good 'Fstoppers flash disc' - only available in the US now I think. This is well worth checking out, again, for its its quality and portability - wish I'd bought 2, I'm in the UK.
I believe the 600ex comes with 2 filters, get familiar with these first and see if you actually need anything else.
Also check out Neil Van Niekerk's book on 'On Camera Flash' - it is hard to put a price on knowledge, but this is by far the most useful and practical book I have read.
I have several modifiers, buy a few, they are cheap compared to the mklll and 600ex, play with them and see which you like vis-a-vis results and portability. Don't underestimate portability, if you have to cart it around all day.
Neil Van Niekerk has a useful modifier as well, costs nothing, his 'black foamie thing' - as highlighted in his book.

Jopa

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Re: Diffusing and using Gels with a 600EX?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2017, 10:53:28 PM »
I still use that Godox softbox + Promediagear Boomerang setup occasionally but for portraiture only and only in conjunction with Godox  AD360 II massive flash. The flash is so large and powerful that it makes it imposible to use for on camera applications. 900gr heavy but x6 as powerful as Canon 600RT speedlite.

I since discovered and used successfully on a number of assignments Neewer 16" round flash softbox / diffuser.

$16 that I never regret spending. :)

http://www.neewer.com/imaging-products/softbox/10085803.html

There are number of benefits of using 16" /40cm round on flash softbox:

1. Works great with regular size speedlites on camera
2. Creates attractive round catch lights
3. Lightweight and manageable size.
4. Creates fairly even light pattern
5. There is 12" version available but give it a miss. It is too small and creates harsher and less even light source
6. Extremely portable.

Things to consider:

1. Ideally, your subject should be no further than 5' to your camera else just bounce naked flash of the ceiling
2. You loose up to 2 stops of flash power therefore you will have to increase power of the speedlites output accordingly.
3. You may consider using an additional black hook and loop 2cm x 18cm strap to ensure that softbox attached to the flash properly. You can get hook and loop straps on Amazon or eBay. They cost next to nothing.


It may be overkill for what you want (#1), but it's a great and relatively inexpensive solution from Alex_M: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg644837#msg644837
Only size of the diffuser matters. Since it's a softbox the light is pretty direct, and may require to crank up ISO a little to avoid "people in the cave" effect :)

A while ago I tried the original modifier from fstoppers https://www.amazon.com/Fstoppers-FlashDisc-Portable-Speedlight-Softbox/dp/B00KHBZ85E but for some reason it didn't give me much satisfaction with results. I just checked the specs - it's 12". Maybe those extra 4" of the Neewer modifier will make a difference. IMHO they should have made a 7' disc - no compromises LOL!

SecureGSM

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Re: Diffusing and using Gels with a 600EX?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2017, 11:27:17 PM »
Jopa, nothing will at this size unless you shoot macro at 1' to the subject :)

I follow the following light modifier size rule:

optimal camera to subject distance equals or less than sum of linear dimensions of the light modifier
i.e. for 80 cm x 80 cm square softbox optimal distance to subject equals or less than 1.6m
for 1.2m octagonal , deca hexagonal or round softbox optimal distance to subject equals or less than 2.4m

therefore for the 40cm round softbox optimal distance to subject is 80cm only. 1.5m is not ideal and really pushing it but I would say somewhat acceptable in run and gun situations.

at US$7.37 price level you might as well give it a go :)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Neewer-16-40cm-Softbox-with-Grey-Balance-Card-for-Canon-Nikon-Neewer-Speedlight-/381453820183




A while ago I tried the original modifier from fstoppers https://www.amazon.com/Fstoppers-FlashDisc-Portable-Speedlight-Softbox/dp/B00KHBZ85E but for some reason it didn't give me much satisfaction with results. I just checked the specs - it's 12". Maybe those extra 4" of the Neewer modifier will make a difference. IMHO they should have made a 7' disc - no compromises LOL!
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 11:38:30 PM by SecureGSM »

Jopa

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Re: Diffusing and using Gels with a 600EX?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2017, 11:54:10 PM »
Jopa, nothing will at this size unless you shoot macro at 1' to the subject :)

I follow the following light modifier size rule:

optimal camera to subject distance equals or less than sum of linear dimensions of the light modifier
i.e. for 80 cm x 80 cm square softbox optimal distance to subject equals or less than 1.6m
for 1.2m octagonal , deca hexagonal or round softbox optimal distance to subject equals or less than 2.4m

therefore for the 40cm large round softbox optimal distance to subject is 80cm only. 1.5m is not ideal and really pushing it but I would say somewhat acceptable in run and gun situations.

at US$7.37 price level you might as well give it a go :)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Neewer-16-40cm-Softbox-with-Grey-Balance-Card-for-Canon-Nikon-Neewer-Speedlight-/381453820183




A while ago I tried the original modifier from fstoppers https://www.amazon.com/Fstoppers-FlashDisc-Portable-Speedlight-Softbox/dp/B00KHBZ85E but for some reason it didn't give me much satisfaction with results. I just checked the specs - it's 12". Maybe those extra 4" of the Neewer modifier will make a difference. IMHO they should have made a 7' disc - no compromises LOL!

I never thought about the actual numbers, but I think yours make sense.

At $7.37 the 16" Neewer is definitely worth trying!

hne

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Re: Diffusing and using Gels with a 600EX?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2017, 03:27:04 AM »
Jopa, nothing will at this size unless you shoot macro at 1' to the subject :)

I follow the following light modifier size rule:

optimal camera to subject distance equals or less than sum of linear dimensions of the light modifier
i.e. for 80 cm x 80 cm square softbox optimal distance to subject equals or less than 1.6m
for 1.2m octagonal , deca hexagonal or round softbox optimal distance to subject equals or less than 2.4m

therefore for the 40cm round softbox optimal distance to subject is 80cm only. 1.5m is not ideal and really pushing it but I would say somewhat acceptable in run and gun situations.

at US$7.37 price level you might as well give it a go :)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Neewer-16-40cm-Softbox-with-Grey-Balance-Card-for-Canon-Nikon-Neewer-Speedlight-/381453820183




A while ago I tried the original modifier from fstoppers https://www.amazon.com/Fstoppers-FlashDisc-Portable-Speedlight-Softbox/dp/B00KHBZ85E but for some reason it didn't give me much satisfaction with results. I just checked the specs - it's 12". Maybe those extra 4" of the Neewer modifier will make a difference. IMHO they should have made a 7' disc - no compromises LOL!

Interesting idea, to use twice the average width of the light source as a rule of thumb for reach as a soft source. It translates to the light source being 28° wide as seen from the subject. This could indeed be a reasonable rule of thumb for soft light as it is quite easy to calculate unaided.

However, the amount of light wrapping around the subject is also dependent on the relative sizes of the subject and the light source: a 1"x1" softbox 2" from the eye will not light the entire face even though it is 28° wide as seen from the eye. A wall-sized softbox at twice the wall length distance will create a fantastic light on someones face.
To light half a sphere, you need a light source at infinite distance or the same diameter as the sphere.

To light a person with soft light, I would argue that you need to have a light source roughly as wide as a person. To light a face only, you can get away with something smaller.
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Re: Diffusing and using Gels with a 600EX?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2017, 03:27:04 AM »

SecureGSM

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Re: Diffusing and using Gels with a 600EX?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2017, 04:48:13 AM »
yup, due to fast light fall off. Inverse-Square rule of light in action. the further away light source from the subject, the lesser light fall off affects the outer areas of the frame.  how much of this affects the image also depends on the lens focal length and softbox beam angle. incidentally, FOV of 85mm lens on FF body is also 28 degree.(diagonally)

"... use twice the average width of the light source..." - correct for round / octa softboxes.
for rectangular softboxes it works out as 1/2 x perimeter
i.e. 80cm x 120 cm soft box - 2m distance as a very rough estimation. vertically or horizontally - is another story





Interesting idea, to use twice the average width of the light source as a rule of thumb for reach as a soft source. It translates to the light source being 28° wide as seen from the subject. This could indeed be a reasonable rule of thumb for soft light as it is quite easy to calculate unaided.

However, the amount of light wrapping around the subject is also dependent on the relative sizes of the subject and the light source: a 1"x1" softbox 2" from the eye will not light the entire face even though it is 28° wide as seen from the eye. A wall-sized softbox at twice the wall length distance will create a fantastic light on someones face.
To light half a sphere, you need a light source at infinite distance or the same diameter as the sphere.

To light a person with soft light, I would argue that you need to have a light source roughly as wide as a person. To light a face only, you can get away with something smaller.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 05:11:43 AM by SecureGSM »

LDS

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Re: Diffusing and using Gels with a 600EX?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2017, 06:41:34 AM »
yup, due to fast light fall off. Inverse-Square rule of light in action. the further away light source from the subject, the lesser light fall off affects the outer areas of the frame.  how much of this affects the image also depends on the lens focal length and softbox beam angle. incidentally, FOV of 85mm lens on FF body is also 28 degree.(diagonally)

Are your rules based on a specific kind of subjects - i.e. portraits? Because IMHO in general, without taking into account size, shape and surface type of the subject, they are going to fail in several situations. Also perimeter puts narrows stripboxes together square softboxes.

SecureGSM

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Re: Diffusing and using Gels with a 600EX?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2017, 07:14:01 AM »
Correct, for portraits, single or small group of people, with a single softbox of round, Octa, square or rectangular (typicaly 2:3 sides ratio) shape.. there is no universal rule to cover all scenarios and specific cases:
Multiple light sources, stripboxes, types of light modifiers, required quality of light, shadows and directionality of light.
 




Are your rules based on a specific kind of subjects - i.e. portraits? Because IMHO in general, without taking into account size, shape and surface type of the subject, they are going to fail in several situations. Also perimeter puts narrows stripboxes together square softboxes.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 07:18:08 AM by SecureGSM »

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Re: Diffusing and using Gels with a 600EX?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2017, 07:14:01 AM »